Should Abortion be illegal?

[SFTor]

I was not your usual 11 yearold, I was a very tanacious and independent minded child. while my parents didnt steer me anywhere they knew what I was doinng the whole time. Im the oldest of 8 children> I can think of 2 siblings who this would of been much for at 11. if I would of been stopped by my parents I would of found a way sooner or later. Seing the truth never scared me. Sounds like to me you believe in a cookie cutter way of raisng childrem and maybe shouldn’t be, if you really believe what you said. Remember I had the smarts to embarass a speaker for planned parenthood on a broadcast that could be heard in the whole easter half if the United States, sounds like a kid who knew what he was doing to me. To this day that is still the proudest moment of my life.

Dear Aspawloski: I’m sure you were very mature for your age.

I can still tell you that if I had been your Dad, you wouldn’t have been watching that sort of materials at that age. Period.

All the best,

Tor

 

[awantz]

Yes, abortion should be illegal. Not only for the health of the baby, but also for the health of the mother. Abortion can cause many problems for the mother like breast cancer, depression, and reduce her chances of having kids in the future.

 

[nannygirl]

nannygirl:

In a perfect world, all fathers would support, nurture, educate, and love their kids. We don’t live there.

Have you ever tried to pry money out of the account of a deadbeat dad? I have. Through telephone conversations, invoices, letters; through my attorney, through the courts. Multiple times. And not every deadbeat dad even has an “account”. Texas state government has become quite aggressive in its attempts to collect, jailing defaulters. Though I agree there should be a penalty for failure to support, how does it serve the kids if the father is sitting in jail?

Anyone have any suggestions? How do we compel fathers to support their children? And even deeper, *why must they be *compelled? Why do so many separated and divorced fathers feel their responsibilities toward their children end when their relationships with the mothers dissolve?

marietta

I’m sorry, but you picked him to be the father of your children, so maybe you need to ask him.

 

[SFTor]

I’m sorry, but you picked him to be the father of your children, so maybe you need to ask him.

It’s funny how people on this forum have a tendency to get pretty standoffish when someone brings up the actual problems that confront people, not to mention women, in this world.

If we discuss embryos the case is clear: each one is sacred and must be protected by the blood of the believers. No sacrifice is great enough, no act impossible.

Once the real child stands there, snotty, cantankerous, and not ours, with a single mother facing the uncertainties of the day, the tune is a little different: each is on their own, no “nanny state” measures to care for the needs of these living ones can be discussed, in this richest country of the world.

Didn’t the early Church organize itself to care for the poor and the sick, among other things?

I’ll take your comment, nannygirl, as an example.

“You picked him to be the father of your children, so maybe you need to ask him.” (Post #143)

I sense a lot of cool detachment in that comment. There is no empathy in it, no engagement, only distance. As a matter of fact it’s hard to fathom that you have even digested a single word of the story she told.

I don’t get it.

 

[marietta]

nannygirl:

You’re sorry? This is your empathetic best?

I have one child with the aforementioned man. The child is now nearly 22 years old. Immediately after her birth, her father deliberately retreated into a self-imposed exile where he could not be reached. I did my level best to involve him to the extent that the court outlined. He failed time and again to step up to the plate.

Your attitude is exactly reflective of the aloof self-absorption facing single and divorced mothers (and some single fathers as well) on a daily basis. The embryo isn’t a blob, it’s God’s highest work. The fetus isn’t a development of cells, it’s a baby, with feeling and perception, even at 4 weeks, I’ve read. Precious. Precious. Precious.

Until it arrives.

I wanted to see who on this forum would adopt a baby saved from abortion, and those who responded in the affirmative did so with gladness and generosity. Those who did so in the negative never said they would not adopt, they just told me my question was stupid and unscientific. It’s clear to me that there is no unity among devout Catholics regarding how to help the pregnant woman in crisis, how to transition her into motherhood, how to educate her regarding her legal rights, how to help her to put food on her table and a shelter over their heads. The unborn is a gift from God; when the baby gets here, it’s, “Hey, chick, you’re on your own. You’re the one who got knocked up, not me.”

If you ever want the abortion laws reduced or repealed, you might put a little shoulder into developing an idea that works.

Caesar517 and mapleoak:

Change the text to suit yourselves all you want. We still don’t, and won’t, live in a perfect world.

marietta

 

[aspawloski4th]

Dear Aspawloski: I’m sure you were very mature for your age.

I can still tell you that if I had been your Dad, you wouldn’t have been watching that sort of materials at that age. Period.

All the best,

Tor

Good thing you are not my dad. My dad and mom and the smarts enough to reconise maturity with somethings in me. they allowed me to think for myself. Sounds like I would of been a bit much for you to handle.

 

[JReducation]

Hello JR:

thank you for your kind words.

The situation is that I come from a very different background than most people here. I grew up in Norway. It is a liberal society. It allows abortion, but seeks to minimize the number of abortions through strong support of families and single mothers. In my mind I find the general social philosophy of the country caring, human, and consistent.

(Well, they gave the Nobel Peace Prize to Al Gore. I do think that was a bit of nonsense.)

During my years in the United States I have followed and engaged in the various social debates, and one area where I have spent some time in immersion is the debate about the “culture of death” vs the “culture of life” as it goes on in the United States.

What I often find in the “culture of life” is what is to me an apparently inconsistent mixture of attitudes. These people are mostly against abortion, mostly for the death penalty, and mostly against any kind of gun control, and very reluctant towards social programs to help the needy. And lastly, more supportive of the military and war.

Take the so-called liberals, aka the culture of death, and I find pretty much the opposite attitudes: mostly for abortion, mostly for gun control, mostly against the death penalty, and mostly for more social programs. And again, less supportive of the military and war.

It leaves me confused, and leads me to ask questions, as you have noticed. Mostly: how are the positions on each side internally consistent?

And if we admit that they are not, how is it that both pro-lifers and pro-choicers have gotten so good at holding conflicting ideas in their heads at the same time?

Best,

Tor

You make an excellent analysis of American culture and values. These same questions exist in the minds of many good people, believers and atheists.

If I had the answer, I would be on my way to Norway to get a prize too.

As a Secular Franciscan I have taken a stand along with that of our Holy Father St. Francis, which is a stand for peace and human dignity. Therefore, any moral choice that promotes peace, protects the rights of the innocent and the safety of those who may be vulnerable has my support.

In his reflections on the scriptures, St. Francis found that God is a God of peace, even when situations arise where a nation must take military actions to protect its citizens or those of another nation who are unjustly treated or threatened.

He also realized that God is the author of life and that man is a product of God’s Word. Since man cannot be both the product of the Word and the author of the Word, he cannot assume to have authority over innocent life that is not intentionally threatening another human being.

Our Holy Father Francis also believed that Christ was killed and that his execution was necessary for the redemption of human life. Taking from that example, he taught his sons and daughters something which the Church also espouses. The only time that human execution is legitimately moral is when a good will be achieved.

In other words, you cannot use execution as a form of punishment or retribution. The only tme execution of another human being is legitimate is when there is no other option in order to protect society. In these cases, the choice that is being made is the choice to protect society against an individual who is a threat to society and there is no way of protecting society from the harm that he can do.

An example of this would be a person such as Adolf Hitler. Someone like him would have been impossible to contain in a prison, even without parole. His influence over others was so powerful, that there it is unlikely that he would not have been rescued or that those who followed his leadership would have stopped their activities, without suppressing the entire Nazi movement.

In such a situation the choice is to protect human life against those who are guilty of harm to innocent people.

Morally speaking, the Catholic Church believes that there are times when the death penalty may be applied, but those situations are very rare. Therefore, it should only be used in the rarest of cases.

Regarding gun control, the Church takes not stand on the posession of arms. That is the right of the state to regulate. However, the Church does make it very clear that violence, war, killing of any kind, except in self-defence is rarely morally justifiable.

These positions are based on the study of Sacred Scripture from beginning to end, not just isolated passages. Because as you can see when you read scripture, there is an epigenetic development in the moral law as Revelation becomes clearer.

To return to the orignal question about abortion, there is no justification for man to assume to have the authority as to legalize the killing of innocent unborn human beings. Even in situations where a physician determines that an abortion would save a mother’s life, one must consider whether the cure is morally valid.

As I said before, my wife and I faced this situation. Faith told us that my wife’s life was not threatened by the pregnancy, it was threatened by the consequences of the pregnancy. The cure that was offered was to terminate the life of our son in order to terminate the consequence. In other words, the child was being sentenced because his presence posed a threat to his mother.

HIS PRESENCE POSED A THREAT, he did not. Therefore, the physician’s option was to terminate his presence. But to terminate his presence, they would have to terminate his life. That is morally unacceptable. You cannot justify terminating a life of an innocent, because his presence poses a danger. You either transfer the innocent to another enviornment where his presense will not be a threat or you protect the mother (who is also innocent) as best you can. In the end you accept the natural outcome.

We were sure then and I am sure today, that we made the right decision. My son was not a threat to his mother. Her pregnancies tended to be compliacted. This one was the most complicated. These complications were not caused by my son, but by a malfunction in my wife’s biology. Why not kill my wife, since her body was posing a threat to her child?

None of this was acceptable. We took our chances. Mother and son made it. Yet, four years later, mother was killed with our other son, in an auto accident and the child who posed the threat is alive and 19 years old on July 16. He is in second-year at university studying art. His only deficit is that he has autism and speaks very little.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[nannygirl]

It’s funny how people on this forum have a tendency to get pretty standoffish when someone brings up the actual problems that confront people, not to mention women, in this world.

If we discuss embryos the case is clear: each one is sacred and must be protected by the blood of the believers. No sacrifice is great enough, no act impossible.

Once the real child stands there, snotty, cantankerous, and not ours, with a single mother facing the uncertainties of the day, the tune is a little different: each is on their own, no “nanny state” measures to care for the needs of these living ones can be discussed, in this richest country of the world.

Didn’t the early Church organize itself to care for the poor and the sick, among other things?

I’ll take your comment, nannygirl, as an example.

“You picked him to be the father of your children, so maybe you need to ask him.” (Post #143)

I sense a lot of cool detachment in that comment. There is no empathy in it, no engagement, only distance. As a matter of fact it’s hard to fathom that you have even digested a single word of the story she told.

I don’t get it.

You are simply reading more into my response than is warranted. I was once in her situation, so I am not unsympathetic. I was merely pointing out that she is the one who picked that man to father her children.

 

[SFTor]

You are simply reading more into my response than is warranted. I was once in her situation, so I am not unsympathetic. I was merely pointing out that she is the one who picked that man to father her children.

Well, it didn’t sound very sympathetic. And you haven’t said anything sympathetic since.

I think she might be aware that she chose this man without anyone reminding her, don’t you?

Best,

Tor

 

[goody141]

Of course abortion ahould be illegal!! You cannot compare masturbation(does not kill an innocen human life ) and the horrifying crime of abortion. How can we as a society condone the killing of a life? It is not just Catholics that are pro-life. Most conservative Christians are pro-life and many orthodox Jews too. Many polls have shown that the majority of people in this country feel that abortion is wrong. Once the Supreme Court has the right judges Roe v. Wade will be a thing of the past.

 

[Gamera]

If you ever want the abortion laws reduced or repealed, you might put a little shoulder into developing an idea that works.

Are we allowed to oppose armed robbery without first “putting a little shoulder” into reducing the poverty that encourages a person to rob? Yes? Then why is the burden on us to remove a killer’s motive to kill?

You are right that society should help women in need. That has nothing to do with whether it should be legal to rip apart a baby with foreceps.

 

[nannygirl]

Well, it didn’t sound very sympathetic. And you haven’t said anything sympathetic since.

I think she might be aware that she chose this man without anyone reminding her, don’t you?

Best,

Tor

She was asking why a man would abandon his children when the parent’s relationship ended, so I was suggesting that he would be the one to answer that question. How would any of us know that?

I think that we are responsible for the choices we make and when we make bad choices, we have to accept that and make the best of it.

There is plenty of help available within the Church and in individual’s families to help in these situations. I don’t happen to believe it’s the government’s job.

 

[SFTor]

She was asking why a man would abandon his children when the parent’s relationship ended, so I was suggesting that he would be the one to answer that question. How would any of us know that?

I think that we are responsible for the choices we make and when we make bad choices, we have to accept that and make the best of it.

There is plenty of help available within the Church and in individual’s families to help in these situations. I don’t happen to believe it’s the government’s job.

Hi nannygirl!

I think she was asking the question about why men abandon their children in a more general sense. She might already know about this one. (I can’t believe I’m explaining this to you.)

So we are responsible for the choices we make. No kidding. And a single mother is responsible for the man leaving the family? And for a difficult economy, with an increasing number of low-paying jobs? Or, dare I mention it, unemployment?

If there was plenty of help available in the Church it is hard for me to understand why there are so many single mothers and their children who are having such difficult lives.

Do you know what I think? I think that if the Church charities had to take on the full breadth of need that exists right now—just from single-parent families—they would go broke in a week.

Just my two cents.

Respectfully,

Tor

 

[nannygirl]

nannygirl:

You’re sorry? This is your empathetic best?

I have one child with the aforementioned man. The child is now nearly 22 years old. Immediately after her birth, her father deliberately retreated into a self-imposed exile where he could not be reached. I did my level best to involve him to the extent that the court outlined. He failed time and again to step up to the plate.

Your attitude is exactly reflective of the aloof self-absorption facing single and divorced mothers (and some single fathers as well) on a daily basis. The embryo isn’t a blob, it’s God’s highest work. The fetus isn’t a development of cells, it’s a baby, with feeling and perception, even at 4 weeks, I’ve read. Precious. Precious. Precious.

Until it arrives.

I wanted to see who on this forum would adopt a baby saved from abortion, and those who responded in the affirmative did so with gladness and generosity. Those who did so in the negative never said they would not adopt, they just told me my question was stupid and unscientific. It’s clear to me that there is no unity among devout Catholics regarding how to help the pregnant woman in crisis, how to transition her into motherhood, how to educate her regarding her legal rights, how to help her to put food on her table and a shelter over their heads. The unborn is a gift from God; when the baby gets here, it’s, “Hey, chick, you’re on your own. You’re the one who got knocked up, not me.”

If you ever want the abortion laws reduced or repealed, you might put a little shoulder into developing an idea that works.

Caesar517 and mapleoak:

Change the text to suit yourselves all you want. We still don’t, and won’t, live in a perfect world.

marietta

I am not aloof or self-absorbed. I have helped (babysitting, money, transportation, clothes) countless girls who made poor choices. It gets tiring after awhile when the same girls don’t learn any lessons from the first time. My friend’s daughter has 3 children with an abusive man. He refuses to marry her and brings other women to their home (which happens to be in his parent’s basement). But she “just loves him so much”. She expects the state to support her in this lifestyle because he won’t work. This is her choice. This seems to be the norm in my experience. Whatever happened to finding Mr. Right, marriage, then children?

 

[SFTor]

I am not aloof or self-absorbed. I have helped (babysitting, money, transportation, clothes) countless girls who made poor choices. It gets tiring after awhile when the same girls don’t learn any lessons from the first time. My friend’s daughter has 3 children with an abusive man. He refuses to marry her and brings other women to their home (which happens to be in his parent’s basement). But she “just loves him so much”. She expects the state to support her in this lifestyle because he won’t work. This is her choice. This seems to be the norm in my experience. Whatever happened to finding Mr. Right, marriage, then children?

It’s your choice to continue to help her. Why don’t you find someone more worthy?

Hmmmm, let’s see. Mr. Right, marriage, then children. What makes you think that women who marry someone don’t think he’s Mr. Right? Isn’t that why they marry these men?

You know what, nannygirl? The only people I don’t hear you mention are the children. What choices did they make? Aren’t those the ones we discuss in this thread?

Here is what I think your position is: abortion is murder. Every embryo is sacred. When the child is born, it belongs no longer to the entire religious community, but to one parent. It is then their responsibility. Is that about right?

Respectfully,

Tor

 

[nannygirl]

Hi nannygirl!

I think she was asking the question about why men abandon their children in a more general sense. She might already know about this one. (I can’t believe I’m explaining this to you.)

So we are responsible for the choices we make. No kidding. And a single mother is responsible for the man leaving the family? And for a difficult economy, with an increasing number of low-paying jobs? Or, dare I mention it, unemployment?

If there was plenty of help available in the Church it is hard for me to understand why there are so many single mothers and their children who are having such difficult lives.

Do you know what I think? I think that if the Church charities had to take on the full breadth of need that exists right now—just from single-parent families—they would go broke in a week.

Just my two cents.

Respectfully,

Tor

Choices have consequences. If a person isn’t in the postion to support a baby, they have no business having sex. If they do, and a baby results, life is going to be difficult.

A big problem now is that teenage girls are purposely having babies. They don’t even care if the father is involved. I know several of these gals. They are taken care of by the state. One woman I know spends all her extra money on tatoos. She would never go to a legitimate charity because they would have expectations like getting a job and making a budget.

Since you seem so passionate about this, may I ask what you personally are doing for these women?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Well, it didn’t sound very sympathetic. And you haven’t said anything sympathetic since.

I think she might be aware that she chose this man without anyone reminding her, don’t you?

Best,

Tor

I this old saying applys " you made your bed you lie in it’.

 

[nannygirl]

It’s your choice to continue to help her. Why don’t you find someone more worthy?

Hmmmm, let’s see. Mr. Right, marriage, then children. What makes you think that women who marry someone don’t think he’s Mr. Right? Isn’t that why they marry these men?

You know what, nannygirl? The only people I don’t hear you mention are the children. What choices did they make? Aren’t those the ones we discuss in this thread?

Here is what I think your position is: abortion is murder. Every embryo is sacred. When the child is born, it belongs no longer to the entire religious community, but to one parent. It is then their responsibility. Is that about right?

Respectfully,

Tor

No, I don’t subscribe to “it takes a village…”. I believe that children are the responsibility of their parents, not the entire religious community. I do think we should help each other out when necessary.

 

[SFTor]

No, I don’t subscribe to “it takes a village…”. I believe that children are the responsibility of their parents, not the entire religious community. I do think we should help each other out when necessary.

I understand completely. I have never helped a single mother, but I gave $25,000 once to help a friend with his medical bills.

Does that count?

 

[SFTor]

I this old saying applys " you made your bed you lie in it’.

Is this really your philosophy for creating a good society, aspawloski?

People are in charge? Have you asked anyone in New Orleans about that?