N
nannygirl
Guest
Hey Tor, I’m broke from helping all these single mothers and I need this operation…
- Status
C
Caesar517
Guest
Ditto. It’s unfortunate that much of society seems to believe they have a right to have sex without consequences, without accepting the very real possibility of the resulting child. When this happens, they jump for the easy way out.
The "I have a right to choose whether I have a baby or not and I also have the right to have sex whenever I want with no strings attached" attitude has become horribly widespread.
S
SFTor
Guest
Oh is that so now…fine, just send me the details, I’ll pay!!!Hey Tor, I’m broke from helping all these single mothers and I need this operation…
You’re a single mother, right?
Tor
P.S. if 25K is what you need for an operation, my guess is that it’s a hangnail.
S
SFTor
Guest
It’s the norm, and it’s why contraception is so important. I know Catholics don’t like it, but if it reduces abortions, how can you argue?
N
nannygirl
Guest
No, much worse- a hair splinter…Oh is that so now…fine, just send me the details, I’ll pay!!!
You’re a single mother, right?
Tor
P.S. if 25K is what you need for an operation, my guess is that it’s a hangnail.
(I’m a barber.)I’m not a single mother.
N
nannygirl
Guest
People are trying to make it the norm, but having children out of wedlock can never be considered normal and shouldn’t be encouraged.
C
Caesar517
Guest
Easy, like this: The end does not justify the means. One cannot do something evil in hopes of achieving something good. This is central to Christianity.
Contraception is evil because of it’s blatant disrespect for human life and it’s perversion of the marital embrace.
G
Grandpop
Guest
Even if you take the religious condemnation of abortion out of the picture, the act of abortion should be illegal. Humans are actively killing their own kind, the main reason being that pregnancy is either inconvenient or embarassing.
Every time intercourse occurs, the possibility of creating a new life is possible - that we are all aware of. Human rights are extended to this new life at conception.
The sin of abortion is not personal, it involves the doctor who agrees to terminate the life, the mother who agrees to exterminate her child, the father’s payment for the abortion or ambivalence to the child’s life, and now society’s acceptance of this act as “noble”.
The argument for those who will be forced to seek out “back-alley” abortions is irrelevant. Why is the law so protective of what they “might do”, as opposed to giving them the red flag to kill your child safely?
Every time intercourse occurs, the possibility of creating a new life is possible - that we are all aware of. Human rights are extended to this new life at conception.
The sin of abortion is not personal, it involves the doctor who agrees to terminate the life, the mother who agrees to exterminate her child, the father’s payment for the abortion or ambivalence to the child’s life, and now society’s acceptance of this act as “noble”.
The argument for those who will be forced to seek out “back-alley” abortions is irrelevant. Why is the law so protective of what they “might do”, as opposed to giving them the red flag to kill your child safely?
If there is someone on this board that calls such a question ‘stupid’ my apologies.
It is not stupid…it is a red herring.
The question itself limits the pro-life actions available to only the one (adoption). Many are in a position to adopt, many are not.
Are we really to accept this as a measuring stick for the sincerity of someones belief that abortion is evil?
Yours is not the only solution out there.
Sincerity of belief and action should not be measured in that way.
The only proper context for a question like that is from someone that is pregnant, considering abortion, and is looking for someone to adopt.
So…are you?
Or are you simply trying to rack up statistics to force an argument that the pro-life side offers no other solutions to abortion?
I recall in one of the exchanges concerning this very question, you applied the answer ‘no’ to anyone that refused to answer the question. This hardly speaks of someone wanting an honest answer and more speaks of someone that has their conclusions in hand and is trying to force circumstances to fit.
S
Spirithound
Guest
You really should…sorry for the late reply…
His whole post was explaining the difference between the fetus/baby dying because of surgery to fix something other than the pregnancy, like a damaged fallopian tube (even though that was likely caused by an ectopic pregnancy), and an actual abortion, which has the intent specifically to kill the baby.
That murder against adults seems to be unquestioned (currently anyways…), so perhaps it is not necessary to see it to make up your mind, though being the unfortunate witness to one would surely help make up your mind!
As for the execution, I think that’s a good idea. I’ve been thinking that if you can’t look at something and say that you’re glad you did it, then you have no business doing it in the first place.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
S
SFTor
Guest
I am not surprised that many families want to see their teenage daughters terminate pregnancies. It’s an expected reaction for a number of reasons: wrong time, wrong age, wrong Dad, etc.
That’s a lot of pressure for a teenage girl.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
.
Why is it all right to kill an innocent baby because it is the ‘wrong time’, wrong age, wrong Dad etc.?
What did the child do to deserve a death?
Why are you punishing the mother (and father) twice? You punish them by assuming that (all things being equal) they are not ‘capable’ of continuing a pregnancy for all of 290 days and, if they ‘cannot’ provide for the child, allowing the child to be adopted. You deny them their ‘right’ to carry that baby to term so that the baby can live.
You further punish them in the fact that you kill that baby.
I can just imagine the scenario–and don’t think that I don’t have sympathy for suffering, but we all suffer at times, unfairly, and we can’t always take the easy way out. . .and most times, we shouldn’t even try to.
You kill that mother’s child, that father’s child. You kill your own granddaughter or grandson because
“Well, dont’ you know, the time is just not right. We can’t have a baby now. I don’t want to have to deal with either helping my daughter and her boyfriend to become parents, or helping them to handle the legal consequences and putting the child up for adoption. I don’t want to have to deal with the ‘fact’ that this child is coming. . .so because it is ‘the wrong time, the wrong father, the wrong age’. . .I’ll just have the child killed. There. No more problems. I’ll let the mother and father go on living the rest of their lives knowing that they let their child be killed rather than take less trouble (timewise) and less expense to arrange for the child’s adoption than they would to take out a college loan. I’ll accept that for the rest of my life I will live with the knowledge, every anniversary of the abortion date, that had I not been so selfishly concerned about what I felt was 'the wrong time, the wrong age, the wrong Dad”, there would be a child growing up–a child with perhaps my eyes, or my mother’s talent for mimicry. . . a child with infinite potential. . .but I didn’t want to have to deal with this ‘now’. . .because it was the wrong time, the wrong age, the wrong dad. I didn’t want to deal with the pressure. I told myself it was for my daughter. . . and some of it was. . .but most of it was the pressure it would have been on me. How would have looked to the neighbors. How would have looked to other family members. How assumed that since I had ‘failed’ as a mother (imagine, my daughter an unwed mother) that I would ‘fail’ this child too. Why, I just couldn’t take that risk, now could I? Not when everything was either going along so well that I wanted nothing to ‘shatter’ it. . .or when everything was already going poorly and I was sure that ‘one more thing’ would plunge our family into a maelstrom we would never escape. Funny, though. . .as life went on, things we couldn’t stop as easily as this child’s birth ‘shattered’ our perfect life. . .but the world went on turning and we got through. Or things happened in our already crazy world that we could not stop as easily as we stopped this child’s heart beat. . .and the world went on turning and we got through.
Or then again, maybe not so funny".
S
SFTor
Guest
Hi Tantrum Ego:
I did not make a value judgment on the situation. I just made an attempt at evaluating it on its merits.
I did not make a value judgment on the situation. I just made an attempt at evaluating it on its merits.
S
SFTor
Guest
I would suggest that the people who do this probably do not regard abortion as murder.
Respectfully,
Tor
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
But Tor, if something is murder it is murder whether or not any person ‘does not regard it as murder’. . .don’t you think?
You’re not going to try to tell me that it is ‘only murder if somebody thinks it is murder’, are you?
S
SFTor
Guest
Of course not. But the Supreme Court of the United States says abortion isn’t murder. That is probably what they go by.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
I repeat, Tor. . .if something is murder it is murder whether or not we ‘think it not murder’ , and certainly if something is murder it is murder whether or not “the Supreme Court says it isn’t”.
Many ‘legal’ positions are immoral–are wrong–and it does not matter that some people ‘think’ that because it is legal that makes it ‘right.’
It doesn’t.
Yet these can be, and often are, the same people, in many cases, who routinely flout ‘law’ when it suits them. . .yet suddenly, in the case of abortion, find themselves compelled to ignore years of historical precedent and moral teaching because, “Well, abortion is the law. It’s legal–that means it is okay. Now pass me a joint–dang! A red light! Aw, I’m in a hurry–no need to stop for it”.
They may have lessened culpability, but they do have some culpability. This position has not been taught for generations; we can look back less than 2 generations and see that it was considered both illegal and immoral, and taught that way for generations upon generations before. Even today, for all the ‘legal’ time of R v W, many voices have been raised to reiterate the correct moral teaching.
If something is wrong it will ‘stay’ wrong no matter what ‘law’ says.
Many ‘legal’ positions are immoral–are wrong–and it does not matter that some people ‘think’ that because it is legal that makes it ‘right.’
It doesn’t.
Yet these can be, and often are, the same people, in many cases, who routinely flout ‘law’ when it suits them. . .yet suddenly, in the case of abortion, find themselves compelled to ignore years of historical precedent and moral teaching because, “Well, abortion is the law. It’s legal–that means it is okay. Now pass me a joint–dang! A red light! Aw, I’m in a hurry–no need to stop for it”.
They may have lessened culpability, but they do have some culpability. This position has not been taught for generations; we can look back less than 2 generations and see that it was considered both illegal and immoral, and taught that way for generations upon generations before. Even today, for all the ‘legal’ time of R v W, many voices have been raised to reiterate the correct moral teaching.
If something is wrong it will ‘stay’ wrong no matter what ‘law’ says.
S
SFTor
Guest
Well, what do you say to people who are not Catholics? They are not going to accept Catholic teaching, nor should they, just as they will not and should not accept the moral teachings of Islam or Asatru.
I can understand very well why they trust the Supreme Court ruling on the matter. I simply don’t understand how they can be called murderers in the context of American secular society. They cannot, I think.
It seems to me that abortion is murder to a faithful Catholic, not a secular member of American society.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
With respect, you are wrong.
If something is wrong, it is wrong whether or not you say it is okay, I say it is okay, the Supreme Court says it is okay, even the entire WORLD says it is okay.
If something is wrong, it is not 'wrong for me because I am Catholic, but all right for others who are secular members of American society. ’ That, Tor, is relativism.
Abortion is not a Catholic issue.
It is a human rights issue.
Murder is murder. We do have ‘degrees’ of murder you know. Many of those who abort are not guilty of murder one; more like manslaughter. . .but it is still wrongful death even if they thought it was all right.
- Status