Should Ambassador to the Vatican be Catholic?

[Zoot]

Lance:

Intelligent retort, not.

Of course it isn’t. Were you expecting more?

On second thought, given all the gay priests, a gay ambassador might be appropriate.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

*September 7th, 2002 *
Mrs. Kathryn Colvin presents to the Pope the Letters by which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II has appointed her Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the Holy See.

The Pope’s speech

To Her Excellency
Mrs Kathryn Colvin
Ambassador of Her Britannic Majesty

 

[Digitonomy]

Gottle, I read one of those links, but it’s still not clear what point you are trying to make.

 

[Digitonomy]

John L. Allen, in his National Catholic Reporter column, The Word from Rome, discussed the matter this week. Interestingly, it seems that the Vatican agrees with Ray Flynn that a non-Catholic should be named at some point.

For its part, the Holy See has long encouraged the United States to break with the tradition of always sending a Catholic as ambassador. From the Vatican’s point of view, the job should be a serious diplomatic posting for the best person available, not a reward for a fat-cat Catholic supporter of the president.

Flynn himself is apparently criticized by some in Rome.

The Vatican also doesn’t want a gung-ho Catholic who will define his or her job as being the pope’s ambassador to the president, rather than the other way around, as some felt happened with Ambassador Raymond Flynn in the Clinton administration. That approach risks losing stature in the administration the ambassador is supposed to serve, which makes them less valuable as a conduit.

 

[TPJCatholic]

It should be the best serious diplomat, the most qualified and also Catholic. It does not have to be an either or decision.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle, I read one of those links, but it’s still not clear what point you are trying to make.

No point, other than that it occurred to me that people in the States might be interested in a comparison with how the same thing is handled by the U.K. ​

 

[Digitonomy]

Gottle of Geer:

No point, other than that it occurred to me that people in the States might be interested in a comparison with how the same thing is handled by the U.K.

Your thought is spot on, but I wasn’t able to learn much from the pope’s speech. Does the UK always choose a Catholic?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

There was the number one anti-forced busing activist who came out of my neighborhood of South Boston, Ray Flynn, who, more than anyone else, fought tooth-and-nail against racist forced busing. I marched in three anti-forced busing rallies led by him and read his article in the anti-forced busing newspaper: *The South Boston Marshal. *

Ray Flynn stood up to the dictator federal judge who ordered the forced busing debacle in Boston. Due to Ray Flynn’s suburb activism, and that he ran against a ‘Progressive’ African American street person named of Mel King, Ray Flynn was elected as Mayor of Boston.

Then things went down hill as Ray Flynn turned his back on his own neighborhood and did a *volte face *and supported all the liberal doctrines which he fought against for three years. Ray Flynn became one of the worst hypocrites in Boston political history.

Ray Flynn became hated in his own neighborhood and earned the nickname of ‘Mel’ Flynn; Mayor Flynn won the re-election to mayor but wards 6 & 7 all voted against him, his own home town. The name of Ray Flynn is spat at in his hometown of South Boston. Ray Flynn jokes abounded in City Hall during his tenure as Mayor and his alcoholism became publically known.

Ray then tried to run for Governor, but his support wasn’t there either, then half-way through his mayorship, Ray Flynn bailed-out and accepted the ambassordorship to the Vatican.

Then came all the complaints about Ray Flynn’s performance as ambassador while serving there, and we weekly laughed at the backstabber as we saw pictures of him in Boston newspapers holding an umbrella for his Eminence the Pope. Ray Flynn once more became the butt of political jokes at the annual St. Patricks Day breakfast.

Whoever is chosen as the next ambassador to the Vatican, please do not use Ray Flynn as a role model. Both Ray Flynn and Ted Kennedy have given the Boston Irish Catholic a bad name.

 

[Digitonomy]

Kevin, I’d appreciate if you could share more about the substance of people’s complaints about Flynn with regard to the Church and his service as ambassador. I really don’t know much about him, but the only negatives I’ve heard are Chris C.'s claim above that he wasn’t loyal to the magesterium, and John Allen’s assertion that people felt he was a stooge for the pope. I’d like to learn a little more about all of this.

 

[Michael_s_Sword]

This was dealt with in the Constitution over 200 years ago.

**Article. VI. **

*Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. *

 

[HagiaSophia]

HagiaSophia:

Then Ray Flynn took the job under Clinton and after reading his book I’d say there was a great deal more going on than ceremonial.

I very much enjoyed the book and thought he humanized the pope in a lovely way. And like yourself, I came away realizing it was far more than ceremonial. But even as far back as Vernon Walters, there was “real work” going on.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

digitonomy:

Your thought is spot on, but I wasn’t able to learn much from the pope’s speech. Does the UK always choose a Catholic?

That, I don’t know - there has only been an Ambassador to the Holy See since 1982 or so, when the Apostolic Delegation was made into a Nunciature. Previously, the first Apostolic Delegate was Monsignor Godfrey, who in 1938 became the first Apostolic Delegate to Great Britain, Gibraltar and Malta.​

There had been talk of diplomatic representation of the Crown to the Holy See in 1847 - but the events of 1848 rather upset all that. I don’t know how matters were managed for the next ninety years.

I think - I’m not completely certain - that Sir Mark Heath (the previous Ambassador to the Holy See) was an Anglican. And I think his knighthood followed his being ambassador. ##

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Kevin, I’d appreciate if you could share more about the substance of people’s complaints about Flynn with regard to the Church and his service as ambassador. I really don’t know much about him, but the only negatives I’ve heard are Chris C.'s claim above that he wasn’t loyal to the magesterium, and John Allen’s assertion that people felt he was a stooge for the pope. I’d like to learn a little more about all of this.

Basically what came out around his old neighborhood (Ray Flynn left One Flint Place in Southie ) about Raybo’s service in the Vatican was basically how unqualified he was for that position. Just another parvenu who was only good enough to hold an umbrella for his Eminence and very little else. More stories about excessive drinking and nepotism reached the streets of South Boston via several of his chums and various politico’s. Eventually Ray left the Ambassadorship under quiet circumstances. Ray Flynn now has his own radio talk show in the Boston area on a Catholic radio station.

Just to let you know that Ray Flynn went from hero to zero in his hometown due to his treacherous politics to his own people. He bewildered and hurt thousands of his former supporters, and just increased the stereotype of Irish duplicity. So because he is so despised by his former friends and neighbors, some of the information regarding his poor ambassadorship could have been exaggerated out of hate. Yet I’ve spoken to some Catholics from Trinity Church in the South End who admire “Mel” Flynn just because he was the ambassador to the Vatican and know nothing of his devious and duplicit politics. Personally I am ashamed I voted for him on his first run for Mayor, and voted for his opponent, Timilty, on his second run.

 

[Norwich]

digitonomy:

Your thought is spot on, but I wasn’t able to learn much from the pope’s speech. Does the UK always choose a Catholic?

No, for the simple reason that to do so would establish a world wide precedent. For example would your ambassador to Russia have to be Eastern Orthodox, or to Japan Shinto? To the Middle East Countries Moslem, or India Sikh? Is the American Ambassador to Israel Jewish?

Ambassadors are specified by the country of origin, even His Holliness has more political sense than to even ask this question.

Can you imagine the problems this would cause;

Zimbabwe will only aceept an Ambassador who is Black of African Origin, no Christian or other religious affiliations, (other than an undying love of President Mugabe) must be anti western and willing to throw white farmers of their land!!!

Becomes a nonsense when you think about it.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I chose “other”.

Ideally the ambassador should be Catholic. Why? Well…everyone should be Catholic.

It would ok to have a non-Catholic for two reasons: (1) the non-Catholic might convert to Catholicism as a result, and (2) better chance for religious dialogue.

However, a “state-to-state” dialogue might be hindered by non-Catholic influence. Why? If the ambassador were to be Catholic, the dialogue could focus on state issues instead of having to first get past the religious difference hurdle first.

Just some random thoughts…

 

[BLB_Oregon]

The ambassor ought to have an understanding of the Church. But more than just having a knowledge of canon law or a devotion to Rome, this person needs an understanding of the political and diplomatic minefields that are represented within US relations with the Vatican. The Pope doesn’t have an army, but an awful lot of US voters, political contributors, and members of Congress, Catholic and non-Catholic, take what he has to say very seriously. So, skip the nod-nod-wink-wink… you can bet that any modern administration appreciates that this post is not just ceremonial. That hardly means that the ambassador needs to be Catholic, but they do need far more than a taste for Italian food.

 

[chicago]

What if the Ambassador were an anti-Catholic fundamentalist type?

 

[Digitonomy]

BLB_Oregon:

The Pope doesn’t have an army, but an awful lot of US voters, political contributors, and members of Congress, Catholic and non-Catholic, take what he has to say very seriously. So, skip the nod-nod-wink-wink… you can bet that any modern administration appreciates that this post is not just ceremonial.

Sounds like you feel the post is more important politically than diplomatically. Unfortunately, that’s probably true.

 

[Norwich]

chicago:

What if the Ambassador were an anti-Catholic fundamentalist type?

Then he wouldn’t have the qualifications of an ambassador. Ergo, no job.

 

[tuopaolo]

Michael's Sword:

This was dealt with in the Constitution over 200 years ago.

**Article. VI. **

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

You are interpreting this in a bad way. Obviously some kind of religious qualification will be needed for certain offices (ex the Chaplain for the US Congress will need to actually believe in God and not be for example an atheist or a Satanist).

And as Justice Scalia has said the Constitution needs to not be interpreted strictly or loosely but rather “reasonably.” There was no intention behind that phrase to prevent Presidents from appointing only Catholics as ambassadors to the Holy See.

Finally, it doesn’t matter what the Constitution says. If only Catholics should be ambassadors to the Holy See and the Constitution says otherwise, then so much the worse for the Constitution. Just because the Constitution says something doesn’t mean that it is true or good.