Should "Cafeteria Catholics" just become Protestant?

[wanner47]

I am observing that the contributors to this conversation are being quite charitable and you are not

Why?

How is he being uncharitable? He’s just asking questions – quite logical ones, I might add.

Disagreement does not equal being uncharitable.

 

[CMatt25]

While they both can’t be right can they? How do you determine what the truth is? And how do you explain it when you’re truth varies from thousands of others believe the truth is?

Obviously no everyone can not be right on every single detail no matter how inconsequential something could turn out to be. Me personally? I personally am not convinced with absolute 100% certainty that I or any human being for that matter is capable of such a complete determination. That’s why as a human being you will rarely hear me proclaim infallibilty.

I’m even thinking there might be Cafeteria Catholics (to get back to the main topic) who don’t know with absolute certainty if the Catholic Church is wrong. So perhaps for that reason they don’t become Protestants.

But as far as those who believe they know absolute revealed truth with 100% certainty within our finite minds, the explanation starts with a faith. It is faith that is the driving force behind what any person believes.

 

[CMatt25]

Where is the Catholic teaching different from the others that believe that CHrist ascended into heaven and is leading the Church by his Holy Spirit and will come again in glory Body and SOUL at the second comming?

Rinnie, I’m sorry you get so confused by my posts. But I didn’t say anything about those faith matters being different from others who believe those things. If there is no difference then there is unity on those things among those who believe them.

 

[Lapey]

Rinnie, I’m sorry you get so confused by my posts. But I didn’t say anything about those faith matters being different from others who believe those things. If there is no difference then there is unity on those things among those who believe them.

You are confusing because you always talk in circles. You never can pin down what is true or not even if it is truth in your mind. In your world there are no truths, no authority. That is dangerous.

To comment on the OP’s topic, no they should not become Protestants, they should and are called to learn their faith then live it, always seeking more of the truth revealed by God in His Church.

 

[rinnie]

Obviously no everyone can not be right on every single detail no matter how inconsequential something could turn out to be. Me personally? I personally am not convinced with absolute 100% certainty that I or any human being for that matter is capable of such a complete determination. That’s why as a human being you will rarely hear me proclaim infallibilty.

I’m even thinking there might be Cafeteria Catholics (to get back to the main topic) who don’t know with absolute certainty if the Catholic Church is wrong. So perhaps for that reason they don’t become Protestants.

But as far as those who believe they know absolute revealed truth with 100% certainty within our finite minds, the explanation starts with a faith. It is faith that is the driving force behind what any person believes.

Oh Yes Matt the Church can and is. IT is promised to us by Christ. The Advocate the Holy Spirit wil guide you into all truth. BUt I do agree with you that would be a problem to know the truth and walk away from it.

BUt the bible will tell you itself there is no 100% absolute truth revealed by the human mind. Because no human has the mind of Christ. SO we know not to even try. We agree with scripture that the Holy Spirit has different words for all people.

If God called us to be in one mind with CHrist as he did with His Apostles we would have received the Laying of Hands and be Priests. But as we can see we are not Priests. We were called to do Gods works different ways. Maybe being a parent, Aunt, friend, care taker etc.

But we are all called to God in his CHurch to receive the teachings of the Holy SPirit. The church is what keeps us all in One Truth.

IF we all had the gift of the Holy Spirit to DEFINE scripture we would all have the same meanings. SO either Christ is right and he has special leaders who cannot lead us from the truth and have the gift of the Holy Spirit or the protestants are right and we all have this gift and the Holy SPirit has divided us.

I think you will have agree Christ is right. There is no other logical way of seeing it.

The Holy SPirit is here to unite us into ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH, Not many church’s. There is only One Holy SPirit and he is only telling ONE TRUTH.

For now I must head out to the OHCAC for Holy Thursday. Have a great Easter Matt. God bless you.

 

[CMatt25]

You are confusing because you always talk in circles. You never can pin down what is true or not even if it is truth in your mind. In your world there are no truths, no authority. That is dangerous.

To comment on the OP’s topic, no they should not become Protestants, they should and are called to learn their faith then live it, always seeking more of the truth revealed by God in His Church.

Even I didn’t know there was no authority in my world.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh Yes Matt the Church can and is. IT is promised to us by Christ. The Advocate the Holy Spirit wil guide you into all truth. BUt I do agree with you that would be a problem to know the truth and walk away from it.

BUt the bible will tell you itself there is no 100% absolute truth revealed by the human mind. Because no human has the mind of Christ. SO we know not to even try. We agree with scripture that the Holy Spirit has different words for all people.

If God called us to be in one mind with CHrist as he did with His Apostles we would have received the Laying of Hands and be Priests. But as we can see we are not Priests. We were called to do Gods works different ways. Maybe being a parent, Aunt, friend, care taker etc.

But we are all called to God in his CHurch to receive the teachings of the Holy SPirit. The church is what keeps us all in One Truth.

IF we all had the gift of the Holy Spirit to DEFINE scripture we would all have the same meanings. SO either Christ is right and he has special leaders who cannot lead us from the truth and have the gift of the Holy Spirit or the protestants are right and we all have this gift and the Holy SPirit has divided us.

I think you will have agree Christ is right. There is no other logical way of seeing it.

The Holy SPirit is here to unite us into ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH, Not many church’s. There is only One Holy SPirit and he is only telling ONE TRUTH.

For now I must head out to the OHCAC for Holy Thursday. Have a great Easter Matt. God bless you.

With faith I wish you a blessed rest of Holy Week Rinnie and a great Easter to you as well. God bless always!

 

[Glennonite]

"

However, nothing in Catholicism goes against Scripture. And if ALL truth is in the Scripture, what good is it if nobody can agree on how to interpret it? You still can’t know truth then. It’s said often and it’s true: you can use Scripture to make just about any point you want to make.

Perfect.

Glennonite

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, I’m sorry you get so confused by my posts. But I didn’t say anything about those faith matters being different from others who believe those things. If there is no difference then there is unity on those things among those who believe them.

There you go a wonderful point. If there is no difference there is unity on those things you believe. There is UNITY in the Catholic CHurch simply because there is no difference between what the Holy Spirt teaches. All of the Catholic Church’s are united in the one truth given to them by the HS. We accept only One truth. Not the truth we want to see. We agree with the word of GOd that the Church is the Pilar of all truth not Us.

Now why it that not true with the Protestant Church if they are also indeed led by the One True Holy Spirit.

By the way, I did not say that you said that faith matters are different from others who believe those things. I am the one saying it and asking you again why the ONE HOLY SPIRIT could possibly lead us into many truths. Because according to Christ it cannot.

So could you answer my question. ITs quite simple. either you believe that there is One Holy Spirit and it leads us to one truth or there is not. I am asking you your opinion, thats All. A pretty simple question/

 

[guanophore]

98% of Catholic women use ABC. Many Catholics are not anti gay marriage. Many Catholics do not agree with the teachings of the CC, but b/c they were raised Catholic, they remain Catholic.

Shouldn’t they just become Protestant instead? Or should they remain Catholic despite their belief that the CC is outdated.

btw…I am not talking about abortion here. Please don’t bring this up. Every woman I know that fits the description of Cafeteria Catholic is very anti-abortion.

The truth is that they have already become Protestant, but just don’t realize it.

 

[guanophore]

Obviously no everyone can not be right on every single detail no matter how inconsequential something could turn out to be. Me personally? I personally am not convinced with absolute 100% certainty that I or any human being for that matter is capable of such a complete determination. That’s why as a human being you will rarely hear me proclaim infallibilty.

You do claim infallibility on your concept that it is not possible to know the Truth, do you not?

Of course no human being can know anything with 100% certainty. However, this is a strawman. The Church does not teach that the knoweldge of God comes from human beings. We can know the objective Truth revealed by God because it comes from an infallible Source - God Himself.

Whenever we make His Truth dependent upon our puny abiliity to apprehend it, we will fall into error.

I’m even thinking there might be Cafeteria Catholics (to get back to the main topic) who don’t know with absolute certainty if the Catholic Church is wrong. So perhaps for that reason they don’t become Protestants.

They have left the Teachings of the Faith, so have become “protestors” against the One Faith that is infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit.

Most Cafeteria Catholics believe that their reasoning is superior to what God has revealed.

But as far as those who believe they know absolute revealed truth with 100% certainty within our finite minds, the explanation starts with a faith. It is faith that is the driving force behind what any person believes.

You are setting up strawmen again, CMatt. The Church does not teach that we need to know the Truth with 100% certainty. This is an invention you have created for yourself to justify disobedience to the Church. Why do you pander it here?

 

[guanophore]

Hi again Tantum, I honestly could understand your point better if I could actually confess I knew “every single solitary Christian from AD 33 to AD 1520” in and outside Rome.

You have made your own personal knowledge the basis of your faith, rather than God’s revelation. You remind me of Thomas:

John 20:24-25

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “**Unless I see **in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

 

[Hesychios]

Excell … Father Corapi himself has said on more than one occasion: “better to be a good Protestant than a lousy Catholic…”

It is insulting to Protestants implying that they don’t have moral standards, ethics, and high expectations for their lives. Like all religions, you have your good, bad, and the ugly…

Nicely put Scott!

 

[estesbob]

You have made your own personal knowledge the basis of your faith, rather than God’s revelation. You remind me of Thomas:

John 20:24-25

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “**Unless I see **in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

Nothing knew here-The Gnostics were around before Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Excellent point, Oriel. Father Corapi himself has said on more than one occasion: “better to be a good Protestant than a lousy Catholic…”

It is insulting to Protestants implying that they don’t have moral standards, ethics, and high expectations for their lives. Like all religions, you have your good, bad, and the ugly…

I think you have completely misunderstood Fr. Corapi. If you listen to his talks he gives many examples of upright, faithful, and fervently practicing Protestants. What he is saying is that, in spite of not having the fullness of the faith, many of our separated brethren live according to high moral standards, good ethics, and bear much fruit for God in their lives. Much more than any “bad Catholic” can do .

 

[guanophore]

Some Catholics are not one-issue voters and they realize life is more complicated than one issue…jobs, wars, economics, unions, foreign policy, education, immigration, and so many other things are on the table…just because someone doesn’t vote the hardline conservative voting pattern doesn’t “cafeteriasize” them

Even those of us that are one issue voters realize that life is much more complicated than one issue. However, if one does not have the right to life, one will not have to grapple with any of these issues, will they?

If the candidate cannot distinguish which of their citizens are human beings, which are alive or dead, what difference will all these other issues make?

All these issues rest on the foundation of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Without that foundation, they will rest upon sand, and ultimately be washed away.

Catholics who don’t embrace this deny the One Faith that has been passed down to us from the Apostles, who taught that we do not have the right to take the life of other innocent human beings.

 

[guanophore]

In your CC an opposite situation exists in that it seems that a more liberal membership would like the Catholic hierarchy to loosen up.

Yes, it seems clear that the majority of American Catholics have fallen away from the faith, and would like the leadership to follow them. The Magesterium, though, is not at liberty to jettison elements of the once for all deposit of faith to suit the modern era. It is their duty to instruct the faithful in how to apply the doctrines of the faith in this generation.

It seems that in Canada (particularly Quebec) that the majority of Catholics do not actually believe that the official teachings of the Catholic Church are w/o error.

I think this has been a persistent phenomenon since the Church was formed. There are always those that will reject the doctrines of the faith. Some more, some less.

The Vatican says believe “A” and do “B”

Perhaps you can give an example of this? I think you lost me here.

…so who “owns” the Catholic Church? Why should the majority leave? Why shouldn’t the majority stay and resolve to cause the hierarchy to change (starting with an acknowledgement that its official teachings contain error)?

Because the Head of the Church is Christ, and she cannot be wrested from His Hand my a “majority” of anyone. She is ensouled by the Holy Spirit, and these divine elements protect her from error.

By God’s grace, who has promised that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”, no “majority” can cause the heirarchy to change to suit their worldly values.

… you will likely have a very hard time finding a school where they will not be taught that “gay is OK”. (Let’s not get into that issue/discussion either) IMHO, in Canada that view is being instilled in the next generation and whether you are a conservative Protestant (who believes in inerrant scriptures) or a conservative Catholic (who believes in an infallible magisterium) that view undercuts both conservative positions.

No worldly view of sin need in any way “undercut” the commandments of God. Though I agree with you that the world will continue to exemplify and promote sinful lifestyles of various kinds, the Truth revealed by God will prevail among the faithful.

That view and other views are chipping away at conservative Christianity …I don’t see how conservative Christianity (that wants to hold to inerrancy/infallibility) avoids a showdown with a more liberal majority…unless the majority leaves (but from the majority’s POV, why should they leave (if they still find value in the religion)?.

I agree. I think we are headed for a showdown. However, even if the majority leave, as they did in Jn, 6, those who know that Jesus has the words of eternal life will stay with Him.

 

[guanophore]

You have touched on a HUGE problem within the Catholic church: the lack of continuing religious formation. In most places that I have observed, any formal education (and often it isn’t very “formal”) ends by the junior year of high school or sooner, depending on when young people are confirmed.

I have surveyed several Catholic parishes, mostly by talking to parishioners, reading their bulletins and checking their websites. There is an amazing lack of adult faith formation. Compare that to most Protestant and Jewish faiths, and the Catholic church is woefully behind.

I have brought this question up with several priests, catechists and others. Most don’t realize there is a problem, and some point to what they do offer, which is usually on a week day, not in the evening or on a weekend. So the only people who can attend are the unemployed and retirees!

I have even tried to find programs on a diocesan level, and have found only a few offerings which may require driving 40 or 50 miles to attend. And most of those are also offered only during the day.

There are several causes for “cafeteria Catholics”, one of them being that anyone who is baptized into the Church is “Catholic” no matter what they believe or what they have been taught. That is like giving out a diploma to someone who never read a book or took a class.

But the biggest reason for the variety of beliefs and misinformation is simply that Catholics are not educated in their faith. And, unfortunately, most don’t care to be, as I have heard from priests and DRE’s who have tried to offer programs to adults and got few if any takers. Apparently most adult Catholics have no interest in truly forming and understanding their faith.

Here is a little secret. Many years ago, I was an instructor for my former parish’s Confirmation program (a scary thought for those who have read some of my posts). At Confirmation, the catechists for the final year (I did the first year) were asked to declare to the parish, the Bishop and the parents that the students were prepared to be confirmed. I told the DRE that it was a good thing that I was not asked to make this statement, as I would have had to say they weren’t ready (or that only one or two of my 12 or 14 students were ready).

These young people were confirmed yet for the most part had no real understanding of their church or its key doctrines. Why would we expect that to change when they became adults?

Yes, I completely agree. Although there is a great deal available in my area, in most cases there is not.

The last year I taught the confirmation classes, I had ONE student that was ready. I just could not bear it again. I tried to talk the students and families into waiting, because confirmation is such a beautiful sacrament and I wanted the students to be properly disposed. The students wanted done so they could get out of CCD, and the parents wanted done with their obligation to see that their children completed all their sacraments. It was so sad!

 

[guanophore]

But what if they never become informed, practicing catholics?

Then they may place their eternal souls in danger.

2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 **And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ **

 

[guanophore]

No, they shouldn’t become Protestant. Our churches have enough unfaithful Christians (they assume the title but don’t follow Christ) that are just like them.

Regardless of whether they’re cafeteria Catholics or unfaithful Protestants, they’re still not doing what either says. Faithful Protestants are more faithful than cafeteria Catholics. It’s as simple as that. Both cafeteria Catholics and unfaithful Protestants are essentially the same thing, but under a different name, so it really doesn’t matter which church they say they go to. Also, Protestant churches are not containers for the unfaithful. Some of us are quite faithful.

Regardless or the title they assume, unfaithful Protestants and unfaithful Catholics both need loving correction, not ostracizing.

This is consistent with what Fr. Corapi says about faithful protestants.

You are right, they need catechesis, and correction.