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guanophore
Guest
MOst of them are very poorly catechized.
No, these 4 marks are Apostolic. They are part of the deposit of faith handed down to us. They are not just the opinion of “conservative Catholics.”
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guanophore
Guest
Not necesarily, since heresy is the willful and obstinant departure from the faith. The vast majority of those who do not follow are ignorant - poorly catechized. They object to aspects of the faith (like NFP) that they have never studied or tried to understand. They reject that which they have never really known, so can’t qualify as heretics. Most Catholics that leave the Church for Protestant communities are like this. I was one of them myself at one time.
Justify that they are receiving communion sacriligiously? I dont’ think anyone is trying to “justify that”.
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odile53
Guest
Just out of curiosity, what good would it do to kick out everyone who does not wholeheartedly subscribe to everything that the Catholic Church holds as true? How would this be even determined, and who would do the “kicking out?”
And once “kicked out,” (excommunicated, use your favorite exclusionary term,) how, pray tell, would they be able to educate themselves about ALL the truths of the Catholic Church?
Perhaps we are to bring back the Spanish Inquisition? Are we to be our brother’s judge, jury, and executioner?
No, thanks. THIS observant Catholic, who always has room for improvement, finds it more efficacious, salubrious, and practical to concentrate on the log that is jammed in her contact lenses instead of insisting on finding every speck in her brother’s eye. Kind of like Christ commanded.
Don’t minimize the role of poor catechesis, by the way. Religious education in this country has been pathetic since the 1960’s, even for those of us who went to Catholic schools. There really needs to be some serious adult catechesis going on, and it’s great that the internet has sites that promulgate official church teachings. But some of the cafeteria gang don’t even know what they don’t know, and worse, don’t know how to find out. There are some people who don’t know, for example, that there is a catechism of more updated vintage than the old Baltimore Catechism (no offense to that work,) that there are faith disciplines such as apologetics, and the like. Some people’s faith experience doesn’t go much beyond what Grandma or Sister Mary Ann told them in the fifth grade. When they experience adult lives with adult problems, they flounder around, misinterpret what they heard as doctrinal truth decades ago (or think they heard,) and do the cafeteria thing. There are scads of divorced and never-remarried Catholics who think, for example, that annulments will make their children illegitimate, or cost tens of thousands of dollars, so they don’t even explore the option, get remarried civilly, and sneak back into church, deciding that this is a lot of hooey promulgated by “a bunch of old men in Rome.” That’s how bad the knowledge deficit is!
Plus, we as a Church don’t outreach to the cafeteria gang enough. Maybe in these days of computers, church envelopes could be bar coded, scanned into the parish computer, and flags could be set to identify what parishioner hasn’t attended Mass in a few consecutive weeks, thus tagging a friendly phone call from a priest or parish board person. People tend to disengage themselves when they feel invisible. What I described could be easily set up for less than a couple hundred dollars, and might snag a few stragglers where they could come back to church and be properly educated.
Better preaching would help better inform the people in the pews about accepted church teaching. This should be remembered, too.
Sorry for the sarcastic tone of this post, but I for one am getting a little tired of people proclaiming their own righteousness and assuming that others are in error, lousy Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, or whatever. I think Jesus was pretty clear on His views of Pharisees, and the admonition to remove the plank from your own eye before offering to wipe the speck from your brother’s sounds like very good advice to mind one’s own business! None of us can be assured of our own salvation, we are all sinners, and if anyone is seriously suggesting this, I would suggest that they are erring against charity, unless they are willing to properly catechize others. In that case, sign up as a RCIA volunteer!
And once “kicked out,” (excommunicated, use your favorite exclusionary term,) how, pray tell, would they be able to educate themselves about ALL the truths of the Catholic Church?
Perhaps we are to bring back the Spanish Inquisition? Are we to be our brother’s judge, jury, and executioner?
No, thanks. THIS observant Catholic, who always has room for improvement, finds it more efficacious, salubrious, and practical to concentrate on the log that is jammed in her contact lenses instead of insisting on finding every speck in her brother’s eye. Kind of like Christ commanded.
Don’t minimize the role of poor catechesis, by the way. Religious education in this country has been pathetic since the 1960’s, even for those of us who went to Catholic schools. There really needs to be some serious adult catechesis going on, and it’s great that the internet has sites that promulgate official church teachings. But some of the cafeteria gang don’t even know what they don’t know, and worse, don’t know how to find out. There are some people who don’t know, for example, that there is a catechism of more updated vintage than the old Baltimore Catechism (no offense to that work,) that there are faith disciplines such as apologetics, and the like. Some people’s faith experience doesn’t go much beyond what Grandma or Sister Mary Ann told them in the fifth grade. When they experience adult lives with adult problems, they flounder around, misinterpret what they heard as doctrinal truth decades ago (or think they heard,) and do the cafeteria thing. There are scads of divorced and never-remarried Catholics who think, for example, that annulments will make their children illegitimate, or cost tens of thousands of dollars, so they don’t even explore the option, get remarried civilly, and sneak back into church, deciding that this is a lot of hooey promulgated by “a bunch of old men in Rome.” That’s how bad the knowledge deficit is!
Plus, we as a Church don’t outreach to the cafeteria gang enough. Maybe in these days of computers, church envelopes could be bar coded, scanned into the parish computer, and flags could be set to identify what parishioner hasn’t attended Mass in a few consecutive weeks, thus tagging a friendly phone call from a priest or parish board person. People tend to disengage themselves when they feel invisible. What I described could be easily set up for less than a couple hundred dollars, and might snag a few stragglers where they could come back to church and be properly educated.
Better preaching would help better inform the people in the pews about accepted church teaching. This should be remembered, too.
Sorry for the sarcastic tone of this post, but I for one am getting a little tired of people proclaiming their own righteousness and assuming that others are in error, lousy Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, or whatever. I think Jesus was pretty clear on His views of Pharisees, and the admonition to remove the plank from your own eye before offering to wipe the speck from your brother’s sounds like very good advice to mind one’s own business! None of us can be assured of our own salvation, we are all sinners, and if anyone is seriously suggesting this, I would suggest that they are erring against charity, unless they are willing to properly catechize others. In that case, sign up as a RCIA volunteer!
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CMatt25
Guest
Why? Because we are talking about matters of faith and belief.
Rinnie, what I believe is Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians, Cafeteria or not, have a unity in Him which is far greater than any differences we might have. He breaks down walls among diverse peoples of the world. He calls himself the Truth and shall come again.
Peace.
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CMatt25
Guest
Well I don’t believe placing faith in a higher being or in something else is the same as absolutely knowing with certainty. Those 2 concepts are oxymorons to me. But I could definitely be wrong on something Guan. Because faith is faith. A belief. You have yours that the Catholic Church infallibly preserves. I’m on my lifelong faith journey. Others have theirs. Some cross paths. Some have differences.
“Most Cafeteria Catholics”? I can’t speak for them. I don’t walk in any shoes but my own.
But indeed Thomas walked with the Lord, yet still doubted. I celebrate His Resurrection however this weekend in faith, Guan, without sight. But if I remind you of an Apostle, I suppose there could be worse things I remind you of.
God bless you as in faith you too recall His death and Resurrection. Peace be with you always.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You’re right, there is a ‘basic agreement’. Scriptures, however, fail to state that is all that needed. Scriptures seem to be quite clear to, ‘be of the same mind and judgment’, ‘avoid those creating dissension’, ‘holding to tradition, whether by word or epistle’, and ‘obey your prelates.’ Are you suggesting we can ignore all those passages?Why? Because we are talking about matters of faith and belief.
Rinnie, what I believe is Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians, Cafeteria or not, have a unity in Him which is far greater than any differences we might have. He breaks down walls among diverse peoples of the world. He calls himself the Truth and shall come again.
Peace.
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CMatt25
Guest
Hi Prod, Jesus also tells us in Scripture to believe in Him for eternal life. In Matt 25 He says feeding the hungry and carng for the sick brings eternal life. He tells the rich man to sell his possessions. He tells us it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. Paul even says women should not speak in churches. So the only thing I might suggest is Scripture says a lot of things. God bless you with a most joyous Easter and peace.You’re right, there is a ‘basic agreement’. Scriptures, however, fail to state that is all that needed. Scriptures seem to be quite clear to, ‘be of the same mind and judgment’, ‘avoid those creating dissension’, ‘holding to tradition, whether by word or epistle’, and ‘obey your prelates.’ Are you suggesting we can ignore all those passages?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You didn’t exactly answer the question, or did you? It appears you believe we can ignore the majority of the New Testament. Jesus also chose and appointed men over His Church, with lots of promises to those men, as well as some specific instructions; e.g. Eucharist, forgiving and retaining sins, etc. etc. Please feel free to elaborate because you appear to be ‘preaching another Gospel’.
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CMatt25
Guest
Well Prod though I did mean to also include from the Gospel of our Lord, how we in the flock can know true shepherds by their fruits, and how the burden of following Christ is to be a light yoke, yes I thought I answered. I’m sorry if not to your satisfaction though. But I’m not going to continue trading verses with you. Peace.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I’m really not trying to ‘trade verses’. It appears you’re saying that ‘scriptures say a lot’, which seems to infer that parts of the New Testament don’t apply. How do we, you, know what applies and what doesn’t?’
Now, you’re latest comment, ‘…how we in the flock know true shepherds by their fruits, and how the burden of following Christ is to be a light yoke’ seems to imply that a lot of the New Testament can be ignored, because it makes the ‘yoke’ too heavy?
Why did Paul tell the Hebrews to ‘obey your prelates’ if it means the yoke might be too heavy? It seems that you put the scriptures into a position of contradiction. Do you believe scriptures contradict themselves? Where do you get that from?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Matt,
Thinking that ‘scriptures say a lot of things’ is dangerous in my honest opinion. We can’t discount any part of the New Testament, or else how long before someone says, ‘we only have to believe John 3:16 because the rest is just too heavy a yoke?’ In what you’ve said, it would give validity to that type argument. When is taking away from what scriptures say ‘too much?’ Who has the authority to decide what is too much and what isn’t? Where does that authority come from?
Thinking that ‘scriptures say a lot of things’ is dangerous in my honest opinion. We can’t discount any part of the New Testament, or else how long before someone says, ‘we only have to believe John 3:16 because the rest is just too heavy a yoke?’ In what you’ve said, it would give validity to that type argument. When is taking away from what scriptures say ‘too much?’ Who has the authority to decide what is too much and what isn’t? Where does that authority come from?
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guanophore
Guest
They remove themselves, by denying the doctrine of the faith.
Catholics are still expected to attend Mass every Sunday, even if they are not in a state of being able to receive communion.
It is important for us to be able to discern when we ourselves, and others, are in the faith. We need to know our faith well enought to use right judgement. It is a sin to confirm others in their sins.
This is the solution, along with prayer.
Yes, our separated brethren do have a lot to teach us about evangelism and fellowship.
You make a valid point, but we are the brother’s keeper, as well. When people are grousing about the lost, it is probably because they are called to minister to them and dont know how. Our calling often comes through the things that get on our nerves.
AMEN! One of the works of mercy is to admonish the sinner.
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guanophore
Guest
That is how you characterize it, CMatt, because it is your way of denying that revealed, objective Truth has been made available to mankind, and that we have an obligation to obey what He has shown us.Why? Because we are talking about matters of faith and belief.
I agree that we have much more in common than different. The differences are important, however, because they continue to separate His One Body, the Church, which He desires to have perfect unity. We cannot resolve and heal these wounds to unity by pretending they don’t exist, or that they are not important.
And in that you also reject that it is possible to know with certainty. Our apprehension of what God has revealed is possible, and essential to walking right with our creator. Absolute certainty is not dependent upon the human mind, as you assert. His revelation is not subject to puny human “proof”. He says “I am that I am”. This is not a product of scientific method!
Indeed it does and it is improper to pick and choose which parts of it to accept and reject the others that don’t cater to your comfort (such as being of one mind, and obeying the authority Jesus has appointed over you). Jesus founded a Church, and gave that Church the understanding and authority to teach the scriptures.
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CMatt25
Guest
Guan, not many posts back you stated, “The truth is that they have already become Protestant”.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7788697&postcount=317
Now you say even those excommunicated are Catholics. Which of course is the truth just so there isn’t any confusion for others by what you said.
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guanophore
Guest
Protestants are also welcome at the Mass.
Yes, one has to be Catholic to be excommunicated. You cant “ex” someone who was never part of the communion in the first place. All the original Reformers were also excommunicated Catholics (Protestants).
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CMatt25
Guest
Guanophore and Prodigal Son 1, all I wish to assert is we begin and end with faith. Be it in a Creator God, the New Testament or whatever we place faith in. An atheist does not place faith in the former. A person of Jewish faith might not in the latter. A Muslim perhaps not in the Christian Bible. And so on with various faiths. You both have faith the Catholic Church is/remains the Church Jesus founded. And that the Catholic Church holds all revealed truth and authority. That’s great. That’s your faith. And another Christian may have a different faith. Sure some of us of faith may believe with absolute certainty that we know our faith is the truth. But I say it’s still faith because if everything was so clearly certain everyone would be of one faith. But this is not the case.
I know there are some who think unless someone is a fully adhering Catholic that they either are improperly catechized or ill-informed. Or are not versed in Church history. But there are probably Protestants, some, not all I am sure, who have studied Church history and tradition, who nevertheless still come away with a different faith than Catholic. There may be Catholics who even though perhaps properly catechized and informed, who nevertheless might in conscience be “cafeteria” on some point. We walk in faith with what interpretations we place faith in. It’s not proven science.
I hope this helped as I can not explain, assert, suggest or elaborate much better than I have. My communication skills may be lacking. But God bless you both and all who journey on this earth. Peace to all.
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guanophore
Guest
Well, you can speak for yourself on this point, CMatt. If you wish to begin and end with yourself, that is your affair. However, Catholics begin and end with the Revelation by God of Himself. He is our beginning and end, our Alpha and Omega.
I am not sure this is true. Though I agree with you in principle, clearly some have the Truth right in front of them, but reject it anyway. Pilate stood right before Truth incarnate, and sent Him away to die.
Jesus came to His own people, and they rejected HIm. So, even when it is clear, some reject it.
With generosity, this is the first place to begin. One does not wish to believe that someone willfully and stubbornly rejects the Truth. It is much better to assume that they are ignorant.
Yes. They, like you, make themselves the “begining and end”.
This is a contradiction, CMatt. A propoerly catechized and informed person will have a conscience that is completely consistent with God’s Revelation. If they do not, then there is still some informing that is needed.
You seem to have no place for God in your theology, CMatt. Either it is your own interpretation “by faith”, or proven science. There seems to be no room for God to reveal Himself to mankind.
It is quite clear that you use this manner of relativism to avoid the responsibility of obeying what God has revealed. I think you have asserted your position quite well.
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CMatt25
Guest
Guan, I am sorry for my continued confusion as to what one title you call them, either a Catholic or a Protestant? But again in response to another poster here on this thread regarding the excommunicated, you said “Catholics are still expected to attend Mass”. And that is my understanding. That the Church still considers a baptized member of the Catholic Church, a Catholic. Cafeteria or even excommunicated ones. But now you are saying excommunicated Catholics are Protestants? Or do you just have difficulty accepting the Church considers them to be Catholics? Peace be with you.
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CMatt25
Guest
I find this offensive. I know you have faith God’s revealed truth is infallibly found in fullness only within the Catholic Church. But that does not mean I or others make ourselves the “begining and the end” or that I seem to have no place for God. Good bye Guan and Easter blessings to you.
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guanophore
Guest
You need not concern yourself, because I dont’ “call them” by any “title” at all. As a matter of fact, I have no discussion about this point at all outside these threads. In my life, I am occupied with the log in my own eye, and can’t see well enough to take the beam out of anyone else’s. If the person sitting next to me in the pew holds Protestant ideas, I don’t know about it. And if they approach the Sacred Eucharist in a state of mortal sin or sacrilege, I don’t know about it either.
If a person wants to lie with their body, by partaking of the Eucharist when they willfully deny what the Church believes and teaches, then they are answerable to God, not to me.
Prov 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the LORD hates,
seven which are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and a man who sows discord among brothers.
One who partakes of the sacrament in opposition to the Teachings of the Church is a false witness. They breathe out the lie as they approach the altar.
Cafeteria Catholics have embraced heresies. Some do it unwittingly, some do it in defiance, because they don’t like the commandments of God. Some have been wounded by authority, and are protesting against it.
Some go off to find a Protestant community that fits closer to their beliefs. I have seen many of these here on CAF.
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