Should "Cafeteria Catholics" just become Protestant?

[rinnie]

What would you say, kathmandu, to a Pagan who used your words, to reject Christianity? That is:

And so often I have heard that I should read about your faith and I will convert. I have been reading about your faith all my life. I love to read about spirituality and religion. But it has not made me a convert. It is not something that automatically happens. Some of us simply do not possess the -]Roman Catholic /-] Christian faith. Our faith is different from yours, our beliefs are different. But they are ours, and God does love us and see us as faithful

Boy PR and they call us the ones who do not have a mind and cannot think for ourself. You know what I have found these last 4 years.

Not just on this site but all over the world. Catholics are beginning to defend their faith and learn it better to be able to defend it, And Protestants don’t like it.

As the One Priest said, Its our book and we are taking it back!! The bible came from the Catholic Church. If that offends people there is nothing we can do. It is our duty to defend our Church and our God and its about time we do our duty.

We just were never taught to discuss it like we are today.

Many questions are being answered today by us insead of just the Church. The Pope said we need to learn our faith better so we can defend it and we are now. And you know what I am proud of ever single Catholic that defends the Church that was started by Christ.

ITs really about time.

 

[praxising]

So when I preside over a funeral as deacon in my assigned parish, I should …

I didn’t say you should do anything. I was pointing out that another made a choice about what to say and there’s no objective reason he shouldn’t.

People talk to their loved ones who have passed all the time, is there some reason they shouldn’t ask their Mom or friend to pray for them if they can? There are surely millions of Saints the Church hasn’t recognized, and I’m quite confident we have funerals for them on a regular basis.

 

[praxising]

Actually he going to look you in the eye and say “you should have listened to Estesbob”

(off to start searching Estesbob’s posts…)

 

[praxising]

What would you say, kathmandu, to a Pagan who used your words, to reject Christianity? That is:

And so often I have heard that I should read about your faith and I will convert. I have been reading about your faith all my life. I love to read about spirituality and religion. But it has not made me a convert. It is not something that automatically happens. Some of us simply do not possess the -]Roman Catholic /-] Christian faith. Our faith is different from yours, our beliefs are different. But they are ours, and God does love us and see us as faithful

I know what I’d say, I’d ask about what they believe, see if it is different from what I believe. Maybe it’s not. Lotsa people following Jesus who don’t even know it.

 

[PRmerger]

Boy PR and they call us the ones who do not have a mind and cannot think for ourself. You know what I have found these last 4 years.

Not just on this site but all over the world. Catholics are beginning to defend their faith and learn it better to be able to defend it, And Protestants don’t like it.

As the One Priest said, Its our book and we are taking it back!! The bible came from the Catholic Church. If that offends people there is nothing we can do. It is our duty to defend our Church and our God and its about time we do our duty.

We just were never taught to discuss it like we are today.

Many questions are being answered today by us insead of just the Church. The Pope said we need to learn our faith better so we can defend it and we are now. And you know what I am proud of ever single Catholic that defends the Church that was started by Christ.

ITs really about time.

 

[PRmerger]

I know what I’d say, I’d ask about what they believe, see if it is different from what I believe. Maybe it’s not. Lotsa people following Jesus who don’t even know it.

Well, the point I was making to kathmandu was that her rejection of Catholicism because she has not found the arguments compelling loses its fizzle when you see that it can be used to also reject Christianity.

 

[CMatt25]

I didn’t say you should do anything. I was pointing out that another made a choice about what to say and there’s no objective reason he shouldn’t.

People talk to their loved ones who have passed all the time, is there some reason they shouldn’t ask their Mom or friend to pray for them if they can? There are surely millions of Saints the Church hasn’t recognized, and I’m quite confident we have funerals for them on a regular basis.

Right. And most there had Catholic backgrounds and had heard of Purgatory. There have been Masses for her from practicng Catholics who were in attendance. No one else has made an issue of it. I had many comments about what a great service the deacon had. We all knew the deacon was making our sorrow and loss easier. That is the real world. And he did. And frankly we appreciated it.

Oh btw no reason I can see why people can’t talk to their departed loved ones. I do everyday. But my faith allows me to do that. Now if I had the SDA faith of a friend, well then I probably couldn’t.

 

[praxising]

We all knew the deacon was making our sorrow and loss easier. That is the real world. And he did. And frankly we appreciated it.

Oh btw no reason I can see why people can’t talk to their departed loved ones. I do everyday.

I’m sorry for your loss, I know what a big hole is left when a Mom passes. Or anyone we love so much. You keep taking to her and prayin’ for her. I’m no Deacon, but I am completely confident she hears and appreciates it.

 

[CMatt25]

See Matt. Here it comes again, what the hek are you talking about? My question was simple and on point, if a caf catholic decides to provide part of the CCC to back up his relative truth ideas, then why does that hold water and the rest of the CCC not?

If you cannot answer the question then just say you cannot, don’t write me off to another poster as another attack on poor little me. That gives the impression you cannot answer, or won’t.

On a side note, I take your word for it about your mom, however my only comment to that was about the deacon saying a person was a saint. We are taught, with good reason, not to cannonise at a funeral or wake service. We are assured in our faith that those who truly believe and live out the faith are rewarded with eternal life with God. My only point was don’t write them in or out too soon, they need our prayer and if they are in the presence of God then they are praying for us.

I in no way spoke on your mom being anywhere heaven or not heaven. I assure you that my mom, in my mind, would go straight to heaven if she were to die today. The main reason is she put up with me for 45 years, you have only had to tolerate me for 1…you have many more to go Matt.

What I was talking about were your words to me, “If this doesn’t rethink the relative truth” when I never say there will be all these different truths in the end. I’ve always been able to see how in the real world there are different faiths and beliefs and when I have studied some I’ve been able to understand how various people, in what they deem to be in good conscience and faith, arrive at theirs even if mine might be different. So if that’s what you mean about me being a relativist, then it’s a compliment. I’d just rather you and others not suggest I believe there will be all these different truths in the end on things that end up mattering.

Your earlier post which is what I thought you so desparately wanted me to answer had CCC posted about informing the conscience and how it can be erroneous. I had already to another poster answered I understood how people might be wrong which to me is the same as if their conscience judgment was erroneous. So I did not see it as “skipping” anything since I had said people can be wrong in discerning. So I merely asked you to read what I had already posted about a person possibly being wrong, ie, erroneous. That part of CCC has always been conflicting to me though in the first place. I never have understood why they put the points I quoted in, if all it comes down to are the ones you included. I don’t understand why it doesn’t just say to force your conscience to follow what the Catholic Church says in that case. Wouldn’t that have made the CCC on conscience briefer yet to the same point?

I have no doubt you would not have liked this other deacon’s description of her entrance into heaven and I am suspecting you would have confronted him afterwards.

But I already have too many gray hairs to put up with you Lapey for 45 yrs. Maybe I’ll be in heaven though myself by then. Who knows.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m sorry for your loss, I know what a big hole is left when a Mom passes. Or anyone we love so much. You keep taking to her and prayin’ for her. I’m no Deacon, but I am completely confident she hears and appreciates it.

Thank you for your kind words. I haven’t reached perfection yet by any stretch. So I won’t say St Peter is going to say at the pearly gates that anyone should have listened to me. But my faith helped me through it immensely and continues to do so to this day.

 

[CMatt25]

YOu make a good point. A cafeteria catholic is still one up on a totally lapsed Catholic. They may be living in mortal sin, and commiting sacrilege, but there is still some value to them to be identified as “Catholic” for some reason.

Hi everyone, Guanophore said I made a good point and a Cafeteria Catholic is one up on a lapsed Catholic. I’m not sure what he/she means. But apparently they are not the same. I know a baptized Catholic is a Catholic. So I’m unclear how a Cafeteria Catholic is a Protestant unless perhaps they actually join a denomination. But I see these different labels tossed around. So my question is since we are talking abut Cafeteria Catholics here, what are the different definitions for…

Cafeteria Catholics?
Lapsed Catholics?
Non-practicing Catholics?
Nominal Catholics?
Cultural Catholics?
Unfaithful Catholics?
automatically excommunicated Catholics?

 

[Lapey]

I didn’t say you should do anything. I was pointing out that another made a choice about what to say and there’s no objective reason he shouldn’t.

People talk to their loved ones who have passed all the time, is there some reason they shouldn’t ask their Mom or friend to pray for them if they can? There are surely millions of Saints the Church hasn’t recognized, and I’m quite confident we have funerals for them on a regular basis.

The difference my friend is the deacon was officiateing at the service, speaking on behalf of the Church. He cannot, is not allowed licitly, to say such things.

After the service in private conversation I would agree with you, during the servicethere is a appearance of and an actual authourity that must be respected by the minister presiding. There is a very objective reason to refrain from such speach in service as deacon or priest.

As a lay person you can say or do whatever you like, I as a deacon cannot.

 

[kathmandu]

What would you say, kathmandu, to a Pagan who used your words, to reject Christianity? That is:

And so often I have heard that I should read about your faith and I will convert. I have been reading about your faith all my life. I love to read about spirituality and religion. But it has not made me a convert. It is not something that automatically happens. Some of us simply do not possess the -]Roman Catholic /-] Christian faith. Our faith is different from yours, our beliefs are different. But they are ours, and God does love us and see us as faithful

I know many practicing pagans. That is their way to connect with the Creator through His creation. They recognize their spiritual needs and exercise it in the way they see as right for them. They very well know about Christianity but they have the free will to choose their own way of spiritual practice. I might ask them about things they do in their spiritual practices because I find it interesting. But it is not my personal way to be with God.

Everyone knows about Christianity. Everyone has free will to choose. God made us that way.

 

[kathmandu]

So this forum is not about discussion, but it is all about backslapping. Okay. it is good to know that.

 

[CMatt25]

The difference my friend is the deacon was officiateing at the service, speaking on behalf of the Church. He cannot, is not allowed licitly, to say such things.

After the service in private conversation I would agree with you, during the servicethere is a appearance of and an actual authourity that must be respected by the minister presiding. There is a very objective reason to refrain from such speach in service as deacon or priest.

As a lay person you can say or do whatever you like, I as a deacon cannot.

Lapey, if a priest told me my mother was “in a better place”, was that out of line too?

 

[CMatt25]

I know many practicing pagans. That is their way to connect with the Creator through His creation. They recognize their spiritual needs and exercise it in the way they see as right for them. They very well know about Christianity but they have the free will to choose their own way of spiritual practice. I might ask them about things they do in their spiritual practices because I find it interesting. But it is not my personal way to be with God.

Everyone knows about Christianity. Everyone has free will to choose. God made us that way.

At risk of being told I am cherry picking, CCC does say (CCC 1782) “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters” However I’m not sure Catholics have the freedom to make moral decisions to fit their spiritual needs and work with their personal way to be with God because then they are Cafeteria Catholics or worse. I find learning about diffferent faiths and spiritual practices interesting too though.

 

[nickiswank]

Pretend for a moment that you are a teacher, and you are teaching children how to read. Most of the children are having a hard time, because learning to read isn’t easy. But there are a few who just seem to get it.

Do you spend all your time praising the children who get it, or do you spend most of your time with the kids who don’t?

Do you kick the kids who don’t get it right away out of class, because obviously they aren’t trying hard enough and won’t get it anyway? Or do you keep them after class to help them, explain things to them, and do your very best to help them understand?

What about the kid who gets extremely frustrated and screams at you, throws the book at you and decides that reading is outdated, unnecessary? The one who says smugly that he knows he’s right and you can’t make him learn if he doesn’t want to? Do you let him drop out of school, because he’s a lost cause? Or do you tell him about all the beauty and wonder and adventure and excitement that he can find between the pages of a book? About how nothing can stop him from knowing anything if he can read the written word? Do you try to inspire a passion for reading in him, or do you consider him a lost cause and turn him loose?

What about the kid who was homeschooled, and badly? He’s nineteen years old, sitting with the children because he doesn’t know how to read yet. It’s not his fault he doesn’t know, and it might not even be his parent’s fault, provided they did the absolute best they could to teach him. He thinks he knows how to read, and resents being categorized with the first graders, so he’s hostile to you. Do you yell at him that you know how to read, and he doesn’t, so he should just shut up and listen and take everything you say as law because as the teacher, you have authority? Or do you listen to his point of view and then try to reach him, with understanding and compassion? Would you snidely remind him all the time that he’s like a child, or compassionately explain the reasons to do what needs to be done?

What about the kid who was abused by his last teacher? He sits in the back, scared to submit to your authority because the last time he trusted a teacher, he was traumatized. Can you force him to trust you again, to believe that you won’t overstep the bounds of your authority? Do you throw him out of class when he questions what you say? Or do you have some compassion for him and do your best to be an example of a teacher who can be trusted?

What about the kid acting out because his brother just died and he doesn’t know how to handle those feelings? Do you yell at him for acting out and send him to the office? Or would you take him aside and explain to him that it’s okay to be angry/hurt/sad/upset, but it’s not okay to break the rules just because he’s angry/sad/hurt/upset?

The church is a hospital for sinners. We’re all out in this fallen world, picking up bruises and cracked ribs and broken hearts. The Church is the place we come for healing and answers and forgiveness. Why would any hospital send a victim of a gunshot wound out onto the streets to fend for himself? They wouldn’t. In the same way, a church shouldn’t send struggling people out on to the streets to fend for themselves just because they’re sinning.

It baffles me that this thread is 38 pages long. The answer is no. Cafeteria Catholics don’t need to run off and throw away the Church altogether. They need caring, compassionate people to remind them of the beauty and purpose of all these things they reject, and to extend some open arms and hearts and show some compassion.

No, we can’t tell them they’re doing the right thing in rejecting Church teachings. But we can encourage them to seek answers, and give any answers we’ve found ourselves. We can encourage them to go to confession and receive the Eucharist and follow the Church by faith if not by sight, until they can reach a better understanding. We can remind them that some things aren’t comprehensible, and remind them of God’s unfailing love and mercy. We can show them the truth in love, as their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Why are we here, learning all we can through apologetics and conversation, if we’re just going to let people walk out without trying to help them? Why are we trying to draw people to the faith with our answers to all these hard questions if we’re letting people walk out without those same answers?

 

[CMatt25]

Yipes! What in the world would make you think that the Catholic Church says we are to “condemn”???

From CCC 846 “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

From pt 14 Lumen Gentium “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Since “could not” is a tense of “can not” this appears the Church is pronouncing condmenation PR, if a person at one time believed in the necessity of the Catholic Church, then as the topic of the thread becomes a Cafeteria Catholic and becomes a Protestant, that they can not be saved.

 

[kathmandu]

At risk of being told I am cherry picking, CCC does say (CCC 1782) “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters” However I’m not sure Catholics have the freedom to make moral decisions to fit their spiritual needs and work with their personal way to be with God because then they are Cafeteria Catholics or worse. I find learning about diffferent faiths and spiritual practices interesting too though.

From what I understand about Roman Catholics is that they have to follow the rules of the Roman Catholic Church. What has always puzzled me is of all the many, many Catholics I personally know (and love) do not follow the rules at all. But they still call themselves Catholic. As a “protestant” my rules are different. Many of these people I know, including my husband, would not be in any contradiction if they were members of another part of Christianity (anything but Baptist). Again, I find it so puzzling.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

…
It baffles me that this thread is 38 pages long. The answer is no. Cafeteria Catholics don’t need to run off and throw away the Church altogether. They need caring, compassionate people to remind them of the beauty and purpose of all these things they reject, and to extend some open arms and hearts and show some compassion.

No, we can’t tell them they’re doing the right thing in rejecting Church teachings. But we can encourage them to seek answers, and give any answers we’ve found ourselves. We can encourage them to go to confession and receive the Eucharist and follow the Church by faith if not by sight, until they can reach a better understanding. We can remind them that some things aren’t comprehensible, and remind them of God’s unfailing love and mercy. We can show them the truth in love, as their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Why are we here, learning all we can through apologetics and conversation, if we’re just going to let people walk out without trying to help them? Why are we trying to draw people to the faith with our answers to all these hard questions if we’re letting people walk out without those same answers?

Nicki, in case you missed it in the 38 pages, the majority supports just what you’ve been saying. . .that "Cafeteria Catholics’ should not become Protestant or be treated ‘poorly’.

That being said, it would be a poor return we give to Christ if we, seeing the error of a brother or sister, said NOTHING to help them find the truth.
It would be a poor return to Christ if we ENCOURAGED people to continue in error with the false idea that telling them OF the error would somehow ‘hurt feelings’ or possibly cause them to ‘walk away’.

I mean, if people are already not following Christ, and we say, “my brothers and sisters, we wish you to follow Christ, here is the way”, and they say, “Oh my way was all right and because you have now hurt my feelings by disrespecting my way and ‘judging’ me, I will leave your way and it is your fault now, nyah”. . .

Have we really done anything WORSE for the person than allowing him to continue the evil with our SANCTION? I don’t think so.

Naturally nobody WANTS a person to leave the truth, but let’s face it. I could speak with the tongue of angels and exude love enough to swamp the seven seas, but if an individual didn’t ‘like’ to hear what I said, even if it’s the truth, he or she is going to yell, “mean, hurtful, bigot” at me just as much and more than if I actually had BEEN any of the above.

Because at least if a person is genuinely nasty (and yes we have sadly seen some of that), then the person who reacts with anger can feel all ‘justified’ because he can say it is the nastiness of the person that’s the problem and he can feel the nastiness ‘proves’ that the person who was nasty is ‘wrong’ and thus he the so-called sinner is ‘right’.

It’s harder to get that angry with genuine love. . .but thanks to an age which has elevated ligitation and entitlement to unpredecented lengths, even genuine love can be ‘painted’ to be nastiness. And in order to feel justified the person in error has to whip things up and ramp up the volume even more to ‘convince’ himself that it is truly ‘nasty.’ As I said, it’s harder to do but in the end if successful the person is even angrier at the ‘nice’ person than at the nasty one. Sad, but I still trust in God that this kind of situation will NOT long abide.