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Rau
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Yes!
Should Catholic Teenagers understand and be knowledgable of NFP?
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Rau
Guest
Yes! Or more precisely, they are objectively not on the contraception team!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Oh how I wish that were true!I guess I would like to understand as well.
I think users of NFP and those who don’t use any means to space, are on the same team. Especially practicing Catholics.
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bitterhope
Guest
I always thought so too until I posted in CAF. But I’ve been accused and I’ve seen many others accused of calling NFP evil enough times that I am no longer sure what end is up. It’s crazy how as soon as someone asks a question they get lumped into predetermined group and if someone states that perhaps there is a reason that the church states that NFP is supposed to be for just reasons, or if they use serious or grave instead of just (even though all three are used in various church documents) then they are accused of have an agenda more in line with ABC users and against NFP…I guess I would like to understand as well.
I think users of NFP and those who don’t use any means to space, are on the same team. Especially practicing Catholics.
Every thread seems to drift to family size and puts large families against small with mothers with more than X amount of children are accused of being holier than thou and judgmental of moms with under X amount of kids. It’s all silly and is harming to the real message. We should be on the same side. I’m just wondering why it comes across so differently.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Ah, but you can’t go around thinking logically like that, silly goose!I guess I would like to understand as well.
I think users of NFP and those who don’t use any means to space, are on the same team. Especially practicing Catholics.
Don’tcha know that those who don’t use anything are grossly irresponsible, while those using NFP are only doing so to get this year’s new car?(And I wish to goodness I was making this up, but those are near-verbatim quotes I’ve personally heard from the respective sides.)
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Rau
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ABC = contraception.
Undue avoidance of children (an end) is a separate matter, potentially a flaw. It should not be confused with contraception (a means).
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jmjZelie
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Right. Because practicing Catholics are going to understand that caveat about just reasons and the need to practice responsible parenthood, either by having more children or by avoiding having more children for a time (or for the rest of married life as one magisterial document puts it, for the more weighty reasons).I guess I would like to understand as well.
I think users of NFP and those who don’t use any means to space, are on the same team. Especially practicing Catholics.
There is no need for us to feel alienated from each other. If phrases or labels are problematic, then I think it is good to explore what another person means by it and whence comes the precedent for its usage (as we have seen there is precedent for some of the phrases under examination, being used in varying ways by clergy and hierarchy). I don’t like for people to automatically assume malicious intent on the behalf of the other. Most of the people who are either using NFP or just letting nature take its course and discussing it here at CAF are practicing Catholics who could, hopefully and ideally, stand in solidarity with each other, offering mutual support and encouragement. But I think the acrimony I have sensed here is merely reflective of the greater crisis in the Church, and it is simply playing out in feelings of alienation and offendedness.
I wish it didn’t have to be that way, but such is the way of cultural upheaval. Satan loves discord.
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jmjZelie
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Yes, you put it much more succinctly than I did. I do tend to go on as nauseum.
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bitterhope
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I realize that this is probably how it started, but the fact remains many in the clergy–including bishops in good standing with Rome–use this exact phrase in regards to NFP. The message they are attempting to get across seems to be falling in deaf ears or at least list due to their choice of wording, but I’m not convinced that is their fault. It may very well be the fault of people closing off their hearts and minds when what they are hearing isn’t in line with what they want to think. If you substitute your own phrase for theirs, it may make it easier to hear the message. If it does, perhaps the bishops and clergy should be addressed and asked to come up with a better phrase that means what they are wanting their message to mean. Regardless, it is not something just thought up here on CAF by antiNFP posters to advance their agenda.
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jmjZelie
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jmjZelie
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jmjZelie
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I know! I have seen those too.Ah, but you can’t go around thinking logically like that, silly goose!
(And I wish to goodness I was making this up, but those are near-verbatim quotes I’ve personally heard from the respective sides.)
It is making me wonder if some people actually dissent from the teaching and are trying to rile up faithful Catholics and use the divide and conquer approach.
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Rau
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There is NO twisting. I quoted you verbatim. You are missing the point! You used the term. I am not questioning what you seek to say by using the term. But you use it (other than to ask what it means) therefore you think it has meaning (in the context of this discussion ). I demonstrated in post #86 it is not meaningfully descriptive.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Close. This stuff is stuff I’ve heard in real life, not CAF or another internet forum. In a stunning surprise, the devil does not like it when Christ’s church isn’t one. Being not in the least bit unintelligent, he can use even orthodoxy against its members–see a couple using NFP for a good reason being told that they’re only doing it to get the next new car, or the couple who don’t need to use NFP at a given time and so aren’t being told that they don’t have self-control/are irresponsible. Sigh.I know! I have seen those too.
It is making me wonder if some people actually dissent from the teaching and are trying to rile up faithful Catholics and use the divide and conquer approach.
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bitterhope
Guest
Do you mean to be confusing?
Do you mean to pick apart posts for the sake of arguing?
Do you mean to portray others as saying something they aren’t?
If so, why?
This whole thread has swayed so off course it is crazy!
My mom taught us all NFP for feminine health checks. Sex wasn’t brought into it at all. Chastity was taught separately. As we neared marriage, mom referred us to NFP instructors if we desired that. Yes, it’s a good thing for teens to know and learn in stages as they grow, but if like me and they begin cycling early, the teen years are too late to teach them all of a sudden. And chastity should be taught age appropriately from birth. Teens are WAY too old to be learning chastity if it’s never been discussed before that.
That is my take on the teens and NFP debate
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Rau
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No to the first question. To the 2nd and 3rd - no and I have not done so. Those accusations have no basis.
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jmjZelie
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I am not missing the point. I was accused of saying that people who use NFP have a contraceptive mentality. That accusation was extended to a larger group of people as well. I denied the charge. Then you took my words as proof of the veracity of the original accusation. Do you not see how absurd that is?
Person A: you and your kind insist that the sky is quiffersnuffle
Person B: nobody insisted that the sky is quiffersnuffle. The sky is blue. I had only asked person X what quiffersnuffle meant. I use the color words that have been used in color teachings. But I have seen the words quiffersnuffle and sky used together before. I wondered what that is referring to.
Rau: Aha! Person B, the fact that you use the term quiffersnuffle PROVES that you are implying there is meaning to quiffersnuffle and therefore you are a closet quiffersnuffle heretic.
Person B (me): I never said any of that. The sky is blue.
Rau: But I heard you say quiffersnuffle and you also said sky. That proves my point.
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jmjZelie
Guest
Right.
I think things started to go sideways when Gordon told the story of the woman he knew who used NFP to enable promiscuity without contraception. Then HoosierDaddy said that is evidence of how some people might practice NFP with a contraceptive mentality. I think at some point after that is when I joined the conversation, and I saw HoosierDaddy’s comment before reading the first few pages of the thread, and I asked what his turn of phrase meant and said I had read that somewhere else. Then I got peppered with accusations. I guess I asked for it. Lesson learned. Never ask for clarification in an open forum.
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Rau
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I have no idea what you think about anybody, and make no accusation at all.I am not missing the point. I was accused of saying that people who use NFP have a contraceptive mentality. That accusation was extended to a larger group of people as well. I denied the charge. Then you took my words as proof of the veracity of the original accusation. Do you not see how absurd that is?
Person A: you and your kind insist that the sky is quiffersnuffle
Person B: nobody insisted that the sky is quiffersnuffle. The sky is blue. I had only asked person X what quiffersnuffle meant. I use the color words that have been used in color teachings. But I have seen the words quiffersnuffle and sky used together before. I wondered what that is referring to.
Rau: Aha! Person B, the fact that you use the term quiffersnuffle PROVES that you are implying there is meaning to quiffersnuffle and therefore you are a closet quiffersnuffle heretic.
Person B (me): I never said any of that. The sky is blue.
Rau: But I heard you say quiffersnuffle and you also said sky. That proves my point.
You agree that people using NFP don’t have a “contraceptive mentality” - so explain that to me – what is that they don’t have??
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