Should Catholic Teenagers understand and be knowledgable of NFP?

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I think that Rau isn’t really trying to argue that anyone is for or against anything regarding NFP. All he is saying is that the phrase “using NFP with a contraceptive mentality” is poorly crafted phrase, whether Rico S said it, arch bishop Fulton Sheen, St Peter, or Jesus Christ himself. It is confusing at a minimum–essentially nonsensical.
 
jmjZelie said:
Right.

I think things started to go sideways when Gordon told the story of the woman he knew who used NFP to enable promiscuity without contraception. Then HoosierDaddy said that is evidence of how some people might practice NFP with a contraceptive mentality. I think at some point after that is when I joined the conversation, and I saw HoosierDaddy’s comment before reading the first few pages of the thread, and I asked what his turn of phrase meant and said I had read that somewhere else. Then I got peppered with accusations. I guess I asked for it. Lesson learned. Never ask for clarification in an open forum.
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Probably my fault then and I apologize. I’m the one that answered your posted question with the statements from two separate US diocese. I know better than posting on these threads. I am sorry I caused this trouble. I really didn’t intend to do that. I just thought I would answer the question you asked from a source higher than my own personal opinion. I wasn’t intending a huge mess, but honestly I should have known better
 
Rau said:
I have no idea what you think about anybody, and make no accusation at all.

You agree that people using NFP don’t have a “contraceptive mentality” - so explain that to me – what is that they don’t have??
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See, this is my point. I didn’t say what you said I said. That is the attitude that was attributed to me and others. I said it wasn’t true. None of that implies I ascribe any meaning whatsoever to the phrase. I was trying to deflect accusations of being anti-NFP and accusations of being judgemental toward folks who practice NFP. I am guilty of neither of those things and I was defending against the accusation of accusing “people who use NFP” having a “contraceptive mentality”. Because I did no such thing.

Look, if you have a quibble about the phraseology, at least ask the clergy about it. That is where the phrase comes from. I didn’t make it up and I still don’t know all of what is implied by those who use it to describe their teaching to their flocks.
 
bitterhope said:
Probably my fault then and I apologize. I’m the one that answered your posted question with the statements from two separate US diocese. I know better than posting on these threads. I am sorry I caused this trouble. I really didn’t intend to do that. I just thought I would answer the question you asked from a source higher than my own personal opinion. I wasn’t intending a huge mess, but honestly I should have known better
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No that was actually very informative. Thank you! It was exactly what I was asking to see.
 
Rico_S said:
I think that Rau isn’t really trying to argue that anyone is for or against anything regarding NFP. All he is saying is that the phrase “using NFP with a contraceptive mentality” is poorly crafted phrase, whether Rico S said it, arch bishop Fulton Sheen, St Peter, or Jesus Christ himself. It is confusing at a minimum–essentially nonsensical.
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That is fine, but his questions should then be addressed to the clergy who use it currently, not some woman on a forum who only just today decided stupidly to ask what it means.🤷
 
Rico_S said:
I think that Rau isn’t really trying to argue that anyone is for or against anything regarding NFP. All he is saying is that the phrase “using NFP with a contraceptive mentality” is poorly crafted phrase, whether Rico S said it, arch bishop Fulton Sheen, St Peter, or Jesus Christ himself. It is confusing at a minimum–essentially nonsensical.
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That’s right - at least in the context we are discussing here. If it was once used to refer to a view that “contraceptives are good and sensible and everyone should use them” - well that might be a reasonable use of the expression - but in the context of this thread - it is as you say - nonsensical.
 
jmjZelie said:
See, this is my point. I didn’t say what you said I said.
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Let me be more precise then: You said:
*Originally Posted by **jmjZelie ***Are you actually reading my posts? Because I said “nobody is saying that people who practice NFP have contraceptive mentality”.
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If you are telling me now that you agree that “contraceptive mentality” is not meaningful - or at least you are unable to ascribe relevant meaning to it, then great - we are agreed.

Alternatively, please tell me what it means. This statement that no one is making…what would it mean?
 
Rau said:
Let me be more precise then: You said:
If you are telling me now that you agree that “contraceptive mentality” is not meaningful - or at least you are unable to ascribe relevant meaning to it, then great - we are agreed.

Alternatively, please tell me what it means.
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I do not agree with you that it is not meaningful. Rather, I prefer to reserve judgement of a phrase that is being used by our shepherds, and instead listen to what they say (by reading their letters, for example) and ponder what they are teaching and ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. If I hear it in a homily, I might email the priest to ask him about it, if I need help to understand. But I would not be arrogant enough to determine that the language used by the clergy is not meaningful. There might perhaps be a meaning that I simply do not yet understand. I think first I need to examine what Pope St. JPII was saying and what he meant, and then learn what the priests and bishops are saying and then come to an understanding of the whole. And besides, oftentimes the clergy, by virtue of being ordained and being given the discipline of celibacy for the sake of the kingdom, has very good insights that those of us living out the vocation of marriage are too “up to our elbows in it” to see…
 
Whether you feel the phrase is nonsensical or whatever else doesn’t change the fact that it is used by the clergy more often than it is by the laity. Maybe you should contact them and see why they are using terminology that you think is nonsensical and ask them to clarify, or use a new and different phrase, or whatever else you think is best. Complaining about it to average everyday moms and dads on the internet won’t make this phrase go away or change. As long as it’s being used by the clergy, somebody in the laity is going to pick it up and adopt it as well.

Quite honestly, I have used NFP with a contraceptive mentality so I understand why people use this phrase. It isn’t meant as a condemnation but instead as a word of caution. If that message is being lost due to poor phrasing, I highly suggest letting the clergy using it know so that they can fine tune their wording and reach more souls.

Accusing posters on CAF of accusing others of sinful use of NFP (especially when they haven’t done so) is not going to change anything.
 
jmjZelie said:
That is fine, but his questions should then be addressed to the clergy who use it currently, not some woman on a forum who only just today decided stupidly to ask what it means.🤷
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I thought I amply demonstrated that in the NFP context, the term makes no sense, or as Rico said: “It is confusing at a minimum–essentially nonsensical.”

Were any clergy who actually would apply the term to NFP present, we could discuss. They are not. It is we who are here on this discussion board, and able to express our opinions. and hear those of others, by which process we improve understanding. I expressed my opinion in posts #86, #88, #89 that the term - in the context of NFP - is confusing and objectively inappropriate, and I gave a rationale. Noone has taken any issue with that rationale, though apparently some (not necessarily you) are comfortable with the term. 🤷
 
jmjZelie said:
I do not agree with you that it is not meaningful. Rather, I prefer to reserve judgement of a phrase that is being used by our shepherds, and instead listen to what they say (by reading their letters, for example) and ponder what they are teaching and ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. If I hear it in a homily, I might email the priest to ask him about it, if I need help to understand. But I would not be arrogant enough to determine that the language used by the clergy is not meaningful. There might perhaps be a meaning that I simply do not yet understand. I think first I need to examine what Pope St. JPII was saying and what he meant, and then learn what the priests and bishops are saying and then come to an understanding of the whole. And besides, oftentimes the clergy, by virtue of being ordained and being given the discipline of celibacy for the sake of the kingdom, has very good insights that those of us living out the vocation of marriage are too “up to our elbows in it” to see…
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By all means, reserve your judgment as you gather more information. And if you do hear the term used by the clergy in the context of NFP, I hope you can discover the meaning, and then assess whether “contraceptive mentality” well captures it, given there is, objectively, no contraception happening.
 
bitterhope said:
,
Quite honestly, I have used NFP with a contraceptive mentality so I understand why people use this phrase. It isn’t meant as a condemnation but instead as a word of caution. If that message is being lost due to poor phrasing, I highly suggest letting the clergy using it know so that they can fine tune their wording and reach more souls.
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If I have the opportunity to hear a priest use the term in the NFP context, and to query him as to meaning, I will certainly do so.

But can you tell me - what is a “contraceptive mentality” - as you use that term here?
Accusing posters on CAF of accusing others of sinful use of NFP (especially when they haven’t done so) is not going to change anything.
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I don’t believe any poster has done that.
 
Rau said:
If I have the opportunity to hear a priest use the term in the NFP context, and to query him as to meaning, I will certainly do so.

But can you tell me - what is a “contraceptive mentality” - as you use that term here?

I don’t believe any poster has done that.
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Yes, actually, as I have told you before, I was accused of doing precisely that: of accusing others of sinful NFP use.
 
I for one don’t “get” how NFP can equal contraceptive mentality.

NFP to work requires abstinence.

Contraception works by turning a fertile act infertile.

Now if I decide to abstain for really selfish reasons, for example I decide that there is too high of a risk that my son would be bald like my dad, Then I tell my husband unilaterally, “I don’t want any bald sons, so we will be abstaining!” I still didn’t go anywhere near contraception or it’s mentality. If anything It is an example of selfishness and shallowness.

I’ve used this example before, in Gone With the Wind, Scarlet didn’t want children because her waist got bigger. What did she do? She banished Rhett from the bedroom.

What Pope John Paul meant (I posted it here in this thread) that when cultures embrace contraception as a good, then inevitably abortion is embraced as a viable choice.

Here are some articles:

crisismagazine.com/2013/abortion-and-the-contraceptive-mentality

lifeissues.net/writers/clo/clo_10contraceptivrmind.html

crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-%E2%80%9Ccontraceptive-mentality%E2%80%9D
 
This is one of the posts that I was defending against, Rau.
LongingSoul said:
For the record, I don’t think that. I used it as a ‘what if this was said’. Use it against me if you like. I’ve got you clocked now.

Well I see that you already have your opinion set in stone about the evils of NFP as judged by CAF. I had that suspicion when you first posed the question that it was not really about learning. Anyway, I know now that anything I say will be attacked and dismissed as wrong so I’m bowing out of your thread.
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This was the type of thing that I was trying to clarify by defending myself against false accusations.

That and the suspicion of Traditionalist Catholics. And the pejorative used against women having babies in the other active thread which I will not repeat. And that people are tarring people who practice NFP, or at least, that I and others here participating in the thread are not doing so.

Now does it make sense?

I don’t know why LongingSoul accused me of those things. Maybe because she assumes that because I would identify as a Traditionalist and as a woman who is discerning on the personal question of NFP or not, and because I used the term providentialist(to which she strongly objected, so I ceased using that term), that I have a set philosophy that is not Catholic. It is not true, what she suspects of me.

I do not espouse any philosophy other than what is taught by the Church. It saddens me to be accused, but I still respect the people here on the thread and hope for common ground among all faithful Catholics.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I for one don’t “get” how NFP can equal contraceptive mentality.

NFP to work requires abstinence.

Contraception works by turning a fertile act infertile.

Now if I decide to abstain for really selfish reasons, for example I decide that there is too high of a risk that my son would be bald like my dad, Then I tell my husband unilaterally, “I don’t want any bald sons, so we will be abstaining!” I still didn’t go anywhere near contraception or it’s mentality. If anything It is an example of selfishness and shallowness.

I’ve used this example before, in Gone With the Wind, Scarlet didn’t want children because her waist got bigger. What did she do? She banished Rhett from the bedroom.

What Pope John Paul meant (I posted it here in this thread) that when cultures embrace contraception as a good, then inevitably abortion is embraced as a viable choice.

Here are some articles:

crisismagazine.com/2013/abortion-and-the-contraceptive-mentality

lifeissues.net/writers/clo/clo_10contraceptivrmind.html

crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-%E2%80%9Ccontraceptive-mentality%E2%80%9D
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Yes, JP II was addressing an altogether different context.

The corollary of the example you give above is that a person may use contraception for good and proper reasons. The bad act of contraception is clearly in evidence - but where is the mentality?
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I for one don’t “get” how NFP can equal contraceptive mentality.

NFP to work requires abstinence.
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Right. I wonder how many people who are talking of NFP with a contraceptive mentality have ever used it. Using NFP requires extended periods of abstinence, sometimes for months and months upon end. It is difficult and time consuming to practice. The people who use NFP for a frivolous reason will either abandon it because it isn’t worth the trouble or will begin to use contraception. I don’t “get” how the mentality can be the same either.
 
The very clear solution to this would be if the people who claim to have actually used NFP with a ‘contraceptive mentality’, will actually spell out the bones of that mentality. bitterhope and Hoosier Daddy have skirted the challenge time and again. All of page 6 we were waiting for baited breath for that explanation but as usual is was duck and dive and divert.

You both claim to have experienced this mentality. Please define it in plain honest language.
 
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