Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

[Ione]

My problem with the sow gestation crates is that in real life sows often roll over & crush the baby pigs.Or eat them. The farrowing crates actually allow the little pigs a chance to survive.We only raised a few hogs but learned that they will eat anything that doesn’t move quicker than they do.

I disagree with this. Sows kill many piglets when they are in gestation crates. Even free range farmers agree to that. She has no way to get away from them, she can’t stand forever in one spot and does lay down. Unfortunately, there may be a baby pig under her. I’ve never seen a sow eat a baby piglet and I worked on a hog farm with 1600 sows and around 6000 piglets. I’ve never seen one eat a human either. They will eat another dead pig if they are not being fed enough. It’s called survival. There was a movie once about a plane wreck, people starving ate the bodies of other people. Pigs are extremely intelligent animals and only eat when they are hungry. It is a myth that they will eat anything and that they are always eating. I own pigs and as I mentioned worked on a hog farm and I’ve studied their behavior closely. They are for the most part gentle animals, there are a few with “issues” but then again there are also people, dogs, cat, kids, etc. that have “issues”. They have individual personalities just like any human or other animal. When a sow is in heat she will jump on other pigs and also on people. This is not agression, it is hormones and nature. She is trying to mate. I’ve never seen a sow try to jump on another animal other than a pig, so maybe humans carry some scent that is similar to pigs:shrug: Similar to a dog riding a person’s leg maybe.

 

[Ione]

Here is a documentary film produced by HSUS concerning the Christian perspective on factory farming. It is called Eating Mercifully. There is a Catholic nun featured about halfway through the film. It is quite interesting. Please view so that we can discuss.

video.hsus.org/?fr_story=fddfc1d63c358bb2db36b53597ceeb7b724f5771&rf=bm

I have dial up so wasn’t able to watch the video but have joined the discussion anyway.

 

[Marfran]

More than 1 million pigs each year die during transport.
statistic courtesy of HSUS

 

[4elise]

I did view the video. It’s kind of long. Over 20 minutes buts it is worth watching and very worth discussing. I am going to rewatch it and take notes, and come back to post again. I understand that some of the people posting here make their livings through animal agriculture, and it must be difficult when you feel that your business and way of life are under fire, but for the greater good of society, and for the planet, and for our very souls we need to take a good look that these issues openly.

I do like rawmanwalking’s post. Our evolution as a civilization, as a people of God, should not turn away from compassion, but towards it. People get all upset when a dog is mistreated but don’t see the hypocracy of their own diets. And I speak from personal experience as a meat eater who recently has made changes. Cudos to the Humane Society for including ALL animals, not just the cute ones that live in our homes.

I completely agree with this - and believe if we are to be in dialogue with people for whom this is their way of making a living - we need to continue to remain
sensitive to this but still speaking out - like you I haven’t always been a vegan

 

[Marfran]

I have dial up so wasn’t able to watch the video but have joined the discussion anyway.

I wish you could see the film. Sounds like you have real life experience on a pig farm. Maybe you could tell us a little about that. How you came to work there and how the experience affected you, or what you learned from it. And how your faith and Catholic values factor into the choice you have made not to eat meat.

 

[Ione]

QUOTE=Marfran;5435154]More than 1 million pigs each year die during transport.
statistic courtesy of HSUS

:sad_yes: Many wonderful lives lost. Each with its own personality. It’s very sad. Something(someone, maybe I should say) that could have touched peoples lives gone for a moment on the taste buds. It just doesn’t make sense. And so difficult to make people see things thru our eyes or even their (the animals) eyes. Empathy, that’s what it’s all about. Some people have the ability to empathize and some do not.

 

[4elise]

This is from an old thread of mine - but since we are talking about this topic here - perhaps it could be helpful to the discussion again… I had a teacher once tell me that Catholic Social Teaching is sadly one of the least known gems of our faith…

There are seven broad themes of Catholic Social Teaching (in Green). For each I believe my vegan choice is an appropriate response – and here is why…

1. Life and Dignity of the Human Person
The measure of every institution is whether it threatens or enhances the life and dignity of the human person. ** Choosing a vegan diet is healthier than an ominvore diet – therefore a vegan diet enhances the life of each person and family. medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11310.php
**
2. Call to Family, Community, and Participation
We believe people have a right and a duty to participate in society, seeking together the common good and well-being of all, especially the poor and vulnerable.
A vegan diet, with vegetable protein, cost less to produce and even feed a family - therefore a larger number of people can be feed with the same resources – as Catholics we believe our individual choice matters as we are part of society responsible for the well-being of all - articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/GoVegetarianToSaveMoney.aspx?page=2
3. Rights and Responsibilities
The Catholic tradition teaches that human dignity can be protected and a healthy community can be achieved only if human rights are protected and responsibilities are met.
Workers in factory farming and those who live in these communities where these enterprises exist have increased health risks – choosing a vegan diet helps create a healthier communities for all. factoryfarm.org/?page_id=24
**
4. Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.**
More people can be fed with the same resources making it possible for more of the poor and vulnerable to have their most basic need for food met. It takes 16 pounds of grain and soy to produce one pound of beef. It takes 12 calories of grain to produce one calorie of chicken. We eliminate the ‘middle’ cow/chicken – take the soy and grain directly to the people! An interesting article: guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/24/christmas.famine

5. The Dignity of Work and the Rights of Workers
The economy must serve people, not the other way around. Work is more than a way to make a living; it is a form of continuing participation in God’s creation. If the dignity of work is to be protected, then the basic rights of workers must be respected–the right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, to the organization and joining of unions, to private property, and to economic initiative.
Workers in factory farming, those who are responsible for the slaughter of animals for consumption are often underpaid, are exposed to health hazards, and many take these jobs because they lack other opportunities
fosterfacts.net/wst_page6.html / papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c…act_id=1016401

6. Solidarity
We are one human family whatever our national, racial, ethnic, economic, and ideological differences. We are our brothers’ and sisters’ keepers, wherever they may be. Loving our neighbor has global dimensions in a shrinking world. At the core of the virtue of solidarity is the pursuit of justice and peace. Pope Paul VI taught that “if you want peace, work for justice.”1 The Gospel calls us to be peacemakers. Our love for all our sisters and brothers demands that we promote peace in a world surrounded by violence and conflict. The sixteen lbs it takes to produce one pound of meat could be better used in our ‘shrinking world – we chose a vegan diet to help ensure our brothers and sisters can also eat. - goveg.com/worldHunger-robbingPoor.asp
**
7. Care for God’s Creation
We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of God’s creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored. Stewardship is our understanding of our role with the gift of creation. **As stewards we must ensure that animals are treated as living beings – (easy for most to agree with when talking about puppies and kittens but less so for chickens, pigs, cows…. ) and that our limited resources are protected for all.

Researchers at the University of Chicago found that the typical American diet (of which nearly 30 percent comes from animal sources) generates the equivalent of nearly 3,300 pounds more carbon dioxide per person per year than a vegan diet with the same number of calories

Trees are cut down to create pastureland, vast quantities of water are used, and feedlot and dairy-farm runoff are a major source of water pollution.

A California study found that a single dairy cow “emits 19.3 pounds of volatile organic compounds per year, making dairies the largest source of the smog-making gas, surpassing trucks and passenger cars.”(23)

There are so many more environmental issues related to the raising of animals for food for this world that can be fed on vegetable based diet -

farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/

 

[Ione]

I wish you could see the film. Sounds like you have real life experience on a pig farm. Maybe you could tell us a little about that. How you came to work there and how the experience affected you, or what you learned from it. And how your faith and Catholic values factor into the choice you have made not to eat meat.

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO’s documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. He had a purpose for me (and he gave me a mouth that wouldn’t shut up!) I think God intended us to be kind to all living beings. He’s taught me other lessons as well thru the experience, maybe just for my benefit or maybe to pass on at some point down the line. I learned to hate but have since learned to forgive. It’s wrong to carry hate in yourself and it’s really wrong to take it out on someone or something else. One life isn’t more important than another. The animals have much to give too(and I don’t mean their flesh). I can’t reason taking a precious life to please my tastebuds, there is nothing to support doing that except selfishness. And I still eat eggs and dairy and as long as I do I consider myself a selfish person as well. I don’t think God wants us to be selfish. So that is something that I am working on. It’s kind of like God puts it in front of us and says, what will you do with it, and this isn’t only with animals, it is with many situations, and then we make the choice to do good or not do good. Alot of times I think to myself, would I see Jesus doing this? Or saying this? How would he act in the same situation. I doubt he ever said things like, yeah I got a taste for steak and I’m gonna have it, cause I can! Seems some have the attitude of God put it there for me so I’m gonna use it and abuse it, it’s my right. They forget that it’s also their responsibility to take care of it, whether the earth or an animal or whatever. And the only support I see in favor of eating meat is that it was eaten by Jesus and by others in his day. But it was done in a totally different way. No one that I know of sat and bragged that they were eating a piece of meat cause God intended it to be that way. And just because it was done in Jesus’ time doesn’t mean we have to still do it. It seems we all just pick and choose what we want to follow out of the bible. Jesus didn’t have a car, he walked. Are they going to give up their cars too? Things were alot different in Jesus’ time than they are now. I think what he really wants is for us to quit with all the hate and greed. There are plenty of people who can quote the bible but there are few who live it. I think it’s more about who you are and how you behave. Are you loving or hateful, giving or selfish. Will you sacrifice to help something or someone else? Are you able to put something or someone else first and care for them before caring for your own needs and wants? Sure I’d like to have some ice cream but I’m sure that cow would love to have her calf(her baby) and also have her life. Isn’t that more important than me wanting a bowl of ice cream? How can one even compare? A bowl of ice cream or a life? (I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

 

[Marfran]

**
7. Care for God’s Creation
We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of God’s creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored. Stewardship is our understanding of our role with the gift of creation. **As stewards we must ensure that animals are treated as living beings – (easy for most to agree with when talking about puppies and kittens but less so for chickens, pigs, cows…. ) and that our limited resources are protected for all.

Injured Nestling
This evening I was just finishing up making dinner when the phone rang. It was a neighbor calling for my help. She had found an injured, flightless nestling on the sidewalk in front of her house. I left my dinner yet to be served, and ran over with a towel and the animal transport container that I carry in my car for emergencies.

The parents chirped at and scolded me (or maybe they were pleading for me to hurry up and help). They flew back and forth–the two cardinals, the brilliant red male, and the softer brown female. I picked up their little baby and examined him. A very long gash on his underside, exposing muscle. I could see the movement of his beating heart below the naked muscle.

My neighbor friend was puzzled. That’s not a cardinal is it? No, I said, it’s a cowbird. (Cowbirds are nomadic birds that lay their eggs in other bird’s nests.They are parasitic brooders. Their young are raised by mothers of other species.)

These cardinals had no idea that this was not their biological baby, and were distressed at its predicament.

As I was telling my neighbor friend that she did a good thing by calling me, and that I would run the bird over to the local wildlife rehab–a butterfly landed on her shoulder. ***Oh, you have a butterfly on your shoulder! ***I said, while I held the little injured bird against my chest, feeling his gentle struggle against my fingers.

On the drive in the car to the wildlife rehab, I thought about all of these discussions and arguments on these CAF threads. The meaning of dominion, stewardship, the idea that animals are here to serve us (?), that we are so much more important than they are, that no one cares about the life of a cow or a sow or a chicken… and here I am running off without serving dinner, using gasoline in my car, losing an hour of my day…all for one little bird.

This is God’s little bird who would not have survived his injuries if left alone. He would have suffered for perhaps hours, his parents helpless to render aid, and distressed to see their baby struggle. They would have flown at every predator, but in the end nature would cruelly take his life.

But I came along, a big important human being, and set my life aside for this tiny bird that the world would not miss, but that I know is loved by God.

Am I sentimental? Impractical? Emotional? Ruled by my heart? Should I spend more time thinking of how I can help people, because only people matter?

Ruled by my heart, yes I am. I put my life momentarily on hold to grant mercy and aid to an injured creature that had no important role in my life. And I will do the same for every creature and every human that I encounter on my journey here that needs my help, mercy, understanding or aid.

 

[4elise]

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO’s documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. …

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

Well welcome on board! — I know that some of the stuff I learned I really didn’t want to know just then, it would be easier not to know that commercial fishing is creating so much pollution - because if I didn’t know it I could still go have a filet of fish.

After a couple of years at this it has gotten much easier - just had a bowl of soy ice cream with a vegan cookie… not missing anything… and not feeling like I am contributing to the problem.

Peace and all good!

 

[Marfran]

It’s kind of like God puts it in front of us and says, what will you do with it, and this isn’t only with animals, it is with many situations, and then we make the choice to do good or not do good. Alot of times I think to myself, would I see Jesus doing this? Or saying this? How would he act in the same situation. I doubt he ever said things like, yeah I got a taste for steak and I’m gonna have it, cause I can! Seems some have the attitude of God put it there for me so I’m gonna use it and abuse it, it’s my right. They forget that it’s also their responsibility to take care of it, whether the earth or an animal or whatever… Things were alot different in Jesus’ time than they are now. I think what he really wants is for us to quit with all the hate and greed. There are plenty of people who can quote the bible but there are few who live it. I think it’s more about who you are and how you behave. Are you loving or hateful, giving or selfish. Will you sacrifice to help something or someone else? Are you able to put something or someone else first and care for them before caring for your own needs and wants? Sure I’d like to have some ice cream but I’m sure that cow would love to have her calf(her baby) and also have her life. Isn’t that more important than me wanting a bowl of ice cream? How can one even compare? A bowl of ice cream or a life? (I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

FABULOUS POST! :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[4elise]

I think a good way to learn about it is to watch HBO’s documentary, Death On A Factory Farm. I think God places us where we need to be. …

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

Well welcome on board! — I know that some of the stuff I learned I really didn’t want to know just then, it would be easier not to know that commercial fishing is creating so much pollution - because if I didn’t know it I could still go have a filet of fish.

After a couple of years at this it has gotten much easier - just had a bowl of soy ice cream with a vegan cookie… not missing anything… and not feeling like I am contributing to the problem.

Peace and all good!

 

[4elise]

Beautiful Marfran -

Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which he blesses all the world.
St. Teresa Of Avila

Peace

 

[4elise]

I think that most people in the US do care about animals - as long as they are ‘cute’ part of our tradition of ‘pets’ ----

IF one is willing to eat an animal then maybe it is easier to justify doing just about anything to them - if not then someone might have to examine a most basic issue of ‘what’s for dinner?’.

I know that there is no ‘Catholic teaching’ on not eating meat - but for me - it is Catholic teaching that has caused me to adopt a vegan diet. :newidea: it just made sense !

 

[4elise]

(I think I just talked myself into finally being vegan)

So… how’s that going? thanks for joining Catholic Vegetarians and Vegan group here at CAF - we are all learning together — anyone else who might also learn about this is welcome to drop by too!

Amazingly we are now the most active group here on CAF!

 

[GEddie]

And the only support I see in favor of eating meat is that it was eaten by Jesus and by others in his day. But it was done in a totally different way. No one that I know of sat and bragged that they were eating a piece of meat cause God intended it to be that way. And just because it was done in Jesus’ time doesn’t mean we have to still do it. It seems we all just pick and choose what we want to follow out of the bible. Jesus didn’t have a car, he walked. Are they going to give up their cars too? Things were alot different in Jesus’ time than they are now.

I have NEVER heard anybody “brag” about eating meat because “God intended it to be that way.”

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren’t they suggesting that we can improve on Him (that His morality was not good enough)?? I sure don’t want to go there.

God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won’t post in this thread again.

 

[4elise]

I have NEVER heard anybody “brag” about eating meat because “God intended it to be that way.”

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren’t they suggesting that we can improve on Him (that His morality was not good enough)?? I sure don’t want to go there.

God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won’t post in this thread again.

I think when people suggest that we do something different than Jesus did when he walked the earth it may have more to do with the different times we live in - our food comes to us in different ways, we get around in different ways, we don’t live as He did, we have indoor plumbing - this isn’t to put morality on indoor plumbing - but to cause us to consider that given the change in the way food is produced TODAY - perhaps people of faith should consider this as a moral issue.

 

[Ione]

So… how’s that going? thanks for joining Catholic Vegetarians and Vegan group here at CAF - we are all learning together — anyone else who might also learn about this is welcome to drop by too!

Amazingly we are now the most active group here on CAF!

I think there are probably still things I’m eating that have dairy in them. I know when I read the labels I was surprised to find alot of things had dairy in them. Sometimes you don’t realize you are eating it! I looked at the milk on the shelf the other day at the store, it was cheaper than the soy and then I said “no”, don’t need it! I couldn’t afford the soy so I didn’t get any. I’ve been using margarine instead of butter for awhile now. I’m still buying eggs, which is a big no no. I used to buy from the Amish farms and should really look for farms in this area that sell them if I’m going to eat them. I’m still undecided on the egg thing as someone said that it really isn’t a chick until it’s fertilized. I understand about the thing of not buying them because of the factory farms and that is my reasoning in buying from small family farms. I read once that vegans don’t care if you eat eggs from small independent farms as long as you don’t buy them. Not sure how much of that is true:shrug:
Other than that though, I think I am doing pretty well with it. There are alot of things I would have picked up at the store before but am not buying now. I really don’t miss alot of things. I used to eat the soy ice cream but I couldn’t afford to buy it now so I’ll just go without. I eat boca burgers and boca chicken patties for my main protein. I’m not all the way vegan yet but I’m getting there little by little!

 

[Ione]

I have NEVER heard anybody “brag” about eating meat because “God intended it to be that way.”

And things WERE different for our LORD, but we are not talking about technology (which was the same as His until about 1800); we are considering right and wrong. When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren’t they suggesting that we can improve on Him (that His morality was not good enough)?? I sure don’t want to go there.

God bless you all and ICXC NIKA. I probably won’t post in this thread again.

I have NEVER heard anybody “brag” about eating meat because “God intended it to be that way.”

I could go thru alot of the posts in the animals threads and quote people but it would take too long. Go thru the threads and you’ll see for yourself.

When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us,

Like I said, then driving cars, having fancy homes, jewelry, etc. etc. would be wrong. If eating meat was right for HIM than eating meat, having no car, no fancy home, on and on should be right for you too. You’re only picking the things to do that you want that benefit your desires.

 

[Marfran]

When someone implies that something that was right for HIM becomes wrong for us, aren’t they suggesting that we can improve on Him (that His morality was not good enough)?? I sure don’t want to go there.

Jesus **did not **participate in the eating of factory farmed animal products. This is NEW to our times, and calls us modern folk to take a long, hard look at what we are doing. Jesus may have eaten fish on occassion, and may have eaten lamb once a year–that is so not the picture of the modern Westerner’s diet.