Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

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Not using the modern factory farming method. This is just my opinion of course, since as an agnostic I have no absolute moral measuring stick. I have not seen all kinds of factory farms, but I have seen some. Those I have seen would beat living out in some farmyard.

Is ok for fire to burn your hand? Is it ok for the winter weather to give you frostbite? So, I take it it’s acceptable to vegans for animals to eat us, but not for us to eat animals. Question answered.

The Bureau of Land Management tries to keep these populations low by curtailing their range area and with routine culls. A congressional bill passed last week that averted a proposed BLM cull that would have rounded up and slaughtered 30,000 wild horses and burros. azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/07/18/20090718wildhorses0718.html Instead, they will be sterilized, and the present adoption plan stepped up. 👍 I don’t think anybody is really going to want to adopt wild cattle for pets, nor wild hogs either. But really, if everybody became vegans, there would be no use at all for most of the great plains, the Ozarks, the Smokies and the Appalachians. So they wouldn’t really need to cull by any method, since wild animals would roam free in those areas and the people would move out. Predators, disease and injuries would cull the animals in the same way they did before people arrived in North America.
My most earnest question, and I should have drawn more attention to it, is what would we do with areas like the Great Plains, the Southern Plains and the various mountain areas? They would fill up with wild animals in pretty short order if raising domestic animals ceased. Those areas are mostly useless for anything other than grazing, and if they fill up with wild animals, many would be pretty unsafe for human habitation. Would we just abandon them?
 
Ridgerunner, I can entertain this idea as a thought experiment, but realistically, the kind of instant and rapid feral populations you are talking about are just not going to happen. Unless the *Left Behinders *are correct and the Rapture occurs.

The History Channel had a series a while ago on just such a premise, no not the Rapture, but a world suddenly devoid of people. history.com/content/life_after_people

Any shift away from meat eating is going to be a long gradual process.
 
My most earnest question, and I should have drawn more attention to it, is what would we do with areas like the Great Plains, the Southern Plains and the various mountain areas? They would fill up with wild animals in pretty short order if raising domestic animals ceased. Those areas are mostly useless for anything other than grazing, and if they fill up with wild animals, many would be pretty unsafe for human habitation. Would we just abandon them?
You guys are making up the wildest stuff. How does the ceasation of breeding domestic animals for food affect wild animal populations??? Why would the Great Plains, the Southern Plains, and various mountain areas change their populations of wild animals if you stopped artificially inseminating domestic livestock? One has nothing to do with the other. Or are you saying that by having these areas vacant, it will cause all the naturally occurring wild animals to copulate and breed in an uncontrollable frenzy??
 
Sean B: My quote: *And there is a growing number of older people who have survived serious illness. There is a large group of cancer survivors and heart attack survivors who embrace this diet choice as they are afforded a second chance. And many people struggle with diabetes and obesity and other food related diseases, and are glad to hear what vegans know about making these personal diet changes. *

Your response: *Generalization *

I am personally one of those people, and I personally know of people in all of those groups. This is no generalization, this is real people. And if you like, I can introduce you to some of them.
 
Hunting season is coming up, clear a spot in the freezer and come on. I know how to teach for a positive experience in so many aspects of life that you would never have thought of.
I responded with sincerity to your inquiries as to why vegans are vocal, and why they just do not go off to a quiet place and keep it to themselves. You responded **not **with Oh, so that’s why, that’s what moves you…, but attacked everything that I said attempting to bring light to the questions that you posed. You even belittled the information that many people come to veganism to aid their health and disease. And then you post this??? What is your **motivation **for coming to this thread? The topic is the video ***Eating Mercifully ***that is put out by HSUS. What is objectional about people choosing to eat mercifully? Is the objection that this is something that you are personally not capable of, or personally can not consider, and it bothers you that others do consider it? Why do you come to this thread, and belittle cancer survivors and people who choose to live simply and gently, when this does not pertain to you? If hunting and killing is your thing, then why do you harrass people who prefer to live without spilling blood?
 
You guys are making up the wildest stuff. How does the ceasation of breeding domestic animals for food affect wild animal populations??? Why would the Great Plains, the Southern Plains, and various mountain areas change their populations of wild animals if you stopped artificially inseminating domestic livestock? One has nothing to do with the other. Or are you saying that by having these areas vacant, it will cause all the naturally occurring wild animals to copulate and breed in an uncontrollable frenzy??
It isn’t a matter of artificial insemination (which, with cattle anyway, is pretty uncommon) Animals breed as they breed, if left to do so, and it varies greatly with the animals in question.

The areas mentioned are, for the most part, not useable for any human food production except grass-eating food animals.

Now, if they were emptied of domestic animals, there would be empty grasslands, because most grasslands are presently used to raise grazing domestic animals. Virtually all are, except for parklands.

Nature, as they say, abhors a vacuum. Wild animals are capable of very rapid reproduction if presented with an abundant food supply. Deer have two to three offspring per year. Cattle one to two. Buffalo one to two. I can’t say about sheep and goats. Hogs produce six or eight per litter and, if I’m not greatly mistaken, can produce two litters per year. Predators are capable of very rapid reproduction. Wolves and mountain lions produce substantial litters within two years of their own births. Bears can produce more than one cub per year, and do. Cattle and buffalo are capable of producing calves in approximately two years and three months of their own birth, sometimes earlier. Their calves are capable of producing calves in approximately two years and three months, and on and on. It really doesn’t take all that long for them to multiply into large numbers. Healthy, adult bovines like cattle or buffalo are exceedingly hard for predators to take down. The only serious reduction in their numbers predators can effect are killing the very young (and that’s chancey because mom is usually nearby), the injured and the ill. Human beings presently kill and eat cattle at somewhere between age one and two. So those don’t multiply. Cattlemen retain only somewhere between 10-15% for breeding stock, which keeps their numbers stable. Yet, the grasslands are full of them all the same. Unmolested, cattle will bear young for fifteen to twenty years. The numbers compound quickly.

Open grasslands with no domestic animals will absolutely fill up with wild animals. No one who lives in them could possibly doubt that. Woods would do the same, and nobody could really doubt that who lives in or near them. Wild hogs, in particular, are capable of reproducing in woodlands very rapidly. (There is no difference between a domestic pig and a razorback, except that the tusks of the former are removed early in life. Domestic pigs are potentially very dangerous even so.) Sometimes domestic hogs escape and become wild hogs. I have shot some myself, and they’re extraordinarily dangerous creatures. Most woods are not really useful for agriculture either, which is why they’re still woodlands.

So the question remains. Since grasslands are useless for any human food production (and thus, habitation) other than domestic animals, will they then be left to fill up with wild animals?

And if they are, will humans be able to successfully live in those places? In my opinion, we would not be able to do so.
 
Ridgerunner, I can entertain this idea as a thought experiment, but realistically, the kind of instant and rapid feral populations you are talking about are just not going to happen. Unless the *Left Behinders *are correct and the Rapture occurs.

The History Channel had a series a while ago on just such a premise, no not the Rapture, but a world suddenly devoid of people. history.com/content/life_after_people

Any shift away from meat eating is going to be a long gradual process.
I respectfully disagree. (I again state that I do not oppose vegans choosing that way of life. It’s up to them as long as they study it and do not deprive their children of adequate nutrition for lack of understanding.) In the absence of people, (or meat eating) very large segments of the U.S. would very rapidly fill with wild animals; many of them quite large and dangerous. Of that, no one who is familiar with animal reproduction rates could reasonably disagree. As a very small example, the conservation department in my state advises shooting feral hogs on sight in all seasons and in any numbers, because they reproduce very rapidly, survive quite well in forested areas, and are extremely dangerous.

Certainly, if meat eating is eliminated over a long period, the feralization of much of the U.S. would also be over a long period. But the end point is the same in both cases; huge swaths of the U.S. filled with wild animals and devoid of people.

This, I take it, is acceptable to vegans, as it would be the inevitable result.

Parenthetically, though, I think there would be reverses in vegan living. Billions of pounds of free protein “on the hoof” out on the prairies would undoubtedly tempt people, perhaps nomads, to move into those places to live off them. That, after all, is what Native Americans did once they obtained sufficient transportation (horses in their case) to chase the ungulates down. If the grasslands were emptied of domestic animals, wild horses, presently there in smallish numbers, but guaranteed to proliferate, would be available for that purpose. What an odd scenario that would be. 1870 redux.
 
If anyone things that Ridgerunner is speaking in an unrealistic manner go read somethings about the buffalo populations of the great plains before we moved in. Buffalo Bill used to kill like 200 a day for the train track layers.
 
Just out of curiosity … how do those of you who are opposed in principle to “animal rights” feel about this quote?
Cardinal Manning:
It is perfectly true that obligations and duties are between moral persons, and therefore the lower animals are not susceptible of those moral obligations which we owe to one another; but we owe a sevenfold obligation to the Creator of those animals. Our obligation and moral duty is to Him who made them and, if we wish to know the limit and the broad outline of our obligation, I say at once it is His nature, and His perfections and, among those perfections, one is most profoundly that of eternal mercy.
Or this one?
Cardinal Newman:
Now what is it that moves our very hearts and sickens us so much as cruelty shown to poor animals? I suppose this first, that they have done no harm; next that they have no power whatsoever of resistance; it is the cowardice and tyranny of which they are the victims which make their sufferings so especially touching.
I’ve got more, if you’re interested. 🙂
 
Just out of curiosity … how do those of you who are opposed in principle to “animal rights” feel about this quote?

Or this one?

I’ve got more, if you’re interested. 🙂
I think that the problem lies not in that some people think it is okay to be cruel to animals but that people have different opinions about what constitutes animal cruelty.
 
Just out of curiosity … how do those of you who are opposed in principle to “animal rights” feel about this quote?

Originally Posted by **Cardinal Manning **
It is perfectly true that obligations and duties are between moral persons, and therefore the lower animals are not susceptible of those moral obligations which we owe to one another; but we owe a sevenfold obligation to the Creator of those animals. Our obligation and moral duty is to Him who made them and, if we wish to know the limit and the broad outline of our obligation, I say at once it is His nature, and His perfections and, among those perfections, one is most profoundly that of eternal mercy.

Or this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by **Cardinal Newman **
Now what is it that moves our very hearts and sickens us so much as cruelty shown to poor animals? I suppose this first, that they have done no harm; next that they have no power whatsoever of resistance; it is the cowardice and tyranny of which they are the victims which make their sufferings so especially touching.

I’ve got more, if you’re interested. 🙂
**Fabulous post **theistgal!

How much do you want to bet that they all ignore your post, and keep talking about how all the wild animals will take over the Earth, when we as a civilization stop eating meat.
 
God’s first commission to us (who are made in God’s image who is compassionate towards all animals), was in the Garden of Eden when He gave us dominion over His animals meaning to be good stewards of them. Then sin entered the world and animals have been suffering from the result of greed and gluttony. We will be held accountable someday: “No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.” Hebrews 4:13

In His great love,
Catholic Concern for Animals-USA
 
God’s first commission to us (who are made in God’s image who is compassionate towards all animals), was in the Garden of Eden when He gave us dominion over His animals meaning to be good stewards of them. Then sin entered the world and animals have been suffering from the result of greed and gluttony. We will be held accountable someday: ** “No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.” Hebrews 4:13**
In His great love,
Catholic Concern for Animals-USA
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
Since you all seem to be on the subject of veganism…

At what point is being vegan and following the principals of being vegan really more about vanity and pride and no longer being about making a living sacrifice to God???

Here is my point… Ask a vegan if the they would describe their diet as vegetarian. You will most likely get a prompt explanation. The response will focus on how they actually belong to a higher order of vegetarianism. They will make certain that there is no inkling that in your mind that they are one of those run of the mill, vegetarian.

Remember they weren’t asked about the sacrifice they are making but will point out how big of a sacrifice they are making is and how it benefits the earth and man kind. Is this a generalization, yes it is. But very true of a large percentage of vegans both here and in the general vegan public. So the generalization seems to ask an important question. You free to discount the generalization, but that would seem to answer the question. You’ve should consider that you may be one of those that likes to thump his or her chest and say, look at me.

If your going to pray or sacrifice to God, why not comb your hair, and go to your quiet place and do so there. How does everyone benefit from knowing that you lead a vegan lifestyle?
So at the risk of sounding like I’m bumping my chest, I offer this explanation…

First - vegan is also referred to as strict vegetarian because the vegetarians who chose to eat egg and dairy are now called vegetarian not as once was called ‘lacto-ovo’ vegetarians - so it is just a mater of clarity - yes I don’t eat meat, but I also don’t eat dairy or eggs.

Also, I’ve chosen not to use leather - (actually did this years before becoming vegan) because I knew about the tremendous environmental damage caused in the production of leather.

As for how someone may benefit - how do we all benefit when we share with each other things about ourselves, share our lives, our thoughts, and especially here on CAF that which resonates with faith?

Sean, I’ve noticed that you join us on these threads about vegetarian/vegan a lot - I wonder if it is because you have had that annoying conversation with a self righteous vegan… and you feel you need to ‘defend’ your position - speaking for myself it is sharing here on CAF about this choice BECAUSE it has resonated with my faith, and I want to share that here with others because it makes sense to me. Blessings
 
If anyone things that Ridgerunner is speaking in an unrealistic manner go read somethings about the buffalo populations of the great plains before we moved in. Buffalo Bill used to kill like 200 a day for the train track layers.
And do you believe that would really be an issue today with the loss of habitat?
 
And do you believe that would really be an issue today with the loss of habitat?
Ridgerunner’s premise is that if we stop raising animals for food much of the grasslands currently used for grazing cannot be repurposed as farmland. Thus, much of the lost habitat will be returned to the animals. We know that animals quickly reach a symbiotic balance with their environment. So, when an animal has more environment the population will explode.

I think this is his premise. If you don’t accept this premise fine, just logically explain why you don’t accept it. However, if you do accept it then we have to consider the ramification on the human population that lives in these areas now. I will allow him to extrapolate on why he believes this would be a negative. What follows are what I see as possible negatives to this.

If we have expansive herds of large prey animals (buffalo, cattle, horse, etc) then these herds will stampede – a logical person cannot even question this. What happens when one of these stampedes runs headlong towards a city?

Additionally, an explosion in the prey population will, inevitably, lead to an explosion in the predator population. What happens when this explosion in the predatory population leads them closer and closer to populated areas?

Personally, I don’t buy Ridgerunners arguments (and I am a meat eater). I think that people will continue to control the animal populations the way they always – ALWAYS – have. Which is why, I don’t think we’ll ever have a completely vegan human population short of direct divine intervention. We might see a decrease; we might see an end to factory farming and a return to hunting wild game instead; but I don’t think we’ll see an end to meat consumption.
 
Personally, I don’t buy Ridgerunners arguments (and I am a meat eater). I think that people will continue to control the animal populations the way they always – ALWAYS – have. Which is why, I don’t think we’ll ever have a completely vegan human population short of direct divine intervention. We might see a decrease; we might see an end to factory farming and a return to hunting wild game instead; but I don’t think we’ll see an end to meat consumption.
I think you answer the question really well, and I agree with your conclusions.
There are other uses of these vast areas where grasses grow - apparently some grasses are potential for ethanol - seems to solve two problems! 😉
 
Well of course we should care about animals, just like we should care about the Earth. God gave us dominion over the planet and it’s creatures, and if we respect God we should respect his creations.

However I think it is important to note that you should NOT take it to the extreme and start to value animals over humans, as many people do.
 
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