Should Catholics be concerned about animals?

[Marfran]

Personally, I don’t buy Ridgerunners arguments (and I am a meat eater). I think that people will continue to control the animal populations the way they always – ALWAYS – have. Which is why, I don’t think we’ll ever have a completely vegan human population short of direct divine intervention. We might see a decrease; we might see an end to factory farming and a return to hunting wild game instead; but I don’t think we’ll see an end to meat consumption.

I have friends in wildlife conservation/management, and the whole premise is ridiculous.

I agree with you that meat eating will be around for a long time. I have to wonder if we will ever get rid of cigarettes??? I think that we will also never see the end of production of the cancer sticks. I do hope to see an end to factory farming in my lifetime, though. There is a very notable shift toward vegetarianism/veganism today, and it appears that these diet choices are picking up speed. As far as divine intervention–well, a lot of us **are **hearing the call. In the next life, when we are frollicking with the lambs and the lions, please come up to me and introduce yourself, Drawmack. How will I recognise you??? Oh, I’m sure I will just know!!! You will be the one with the sheepish grin on your face!!! I love ya brother, even if you do eat meat!!!

 

[Marfran]

Well of course we should care about animals, just like we should care about the Earth. God gave us dominion over the planet and it’s creatures, and if we respect God we should respect his creations.

However I think it is important to note that you should NOT take it to the extreme and start to value animals over humans, as many people do.

Who is this exactly? Name one real person that you know who values animals more than humans.

 

[Marfran]

Well of course we should care about animals, just like we should care about the Earth. God gave us dominion over the planet and it’s creatures, and if we respect God we should respect his creations.

However I think it is important to note that you should NOT take it to the extreme and start to value animals over humans, as many people do.

johngh: This is from another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by budgie2
I’m not an animal lover in particular but there are people who love animals more than people.

Quote: Originally posted by Marfran
I have heard this argument a little too frequently, and it is disingenuous. Please name one. Specifically name one. No stereotypes please. Name some specific persons.

Say, yes, my neighbor Joe Blow loves animals more than people. He divorced his wife, threw her out of the house, and moved a goat into the bed that he shared with her. He tossed out all of his kids to live on the street, and is now spending the money that he would have spent on them, on a collection of animals that now live in their bedrooms.

And Joe Blow stole his mother’s prescription medicine from her home to sell on the street for some big bucks. He took that money to buy feed for his lot of animals, because he loves them more than his mother. He also robbed the neighborhood church for the same reason. And he falsified documents to be able to collect welfare and to obtain items from food pantries because he doesn’t care about people (they can fend for themselves) and loves animals more.

Joe Blow has no human friends, because he loves animals more, and when it comes down to it, he will always choose an animal over a human being.

Does this guy exist??? **Is this caricature ridiculous? Of course it is. So is the claim that some people love animals more than people. **People who love animals love people too. People who love animals have human families and human relationships. People who love animals also have a high love and respect for humans. Or they would be living alone with a bunch of animals, and forsake society.

And the elderly lady living alone with a houseful of 100 cats, doesn’t necessarily love animals more, she just doesn’t know how to say “no,” or is obsessive compulsive, or has some other psychiatric disorder.

And Paris Hilton doesn’t love the little doggies that she totes around in her purse more. She is always discarding them for newer cuter ones. She loves herself more!

Sorry to go off like this–but this argument that some people love animals more than people is really off the wall. I know many, many people who love and work with animals. And each and every one of them would give a human being the shirt off their back, or their last morsel of food without hesitation.

 

[Drawmack]

I have friends in wildlife conservation/management, and the whole premise is ridiculous.

Would you mind extrapolating about why you feel this way? I have friends in wildlife conservation and management as well – a lot of them – I only live a couple miles (relatively speaking) from one of the largest protect forests in the country. And, some of them would agree with Ridgerunner while others would agree with you. So could you extrapolate on how you arrived at your conclusions?

I agree with you that meat eating will be around for a long time.

Did we just agree on something?

There is a very notable shift toward vegetarianism/veganism today, and it appears that these diet choices are picking up speed.

I am curious if there is actually a trend toward this lifestyle choice or if it is just more acceptable today for people who differ from the accepted norms to espouse their opinions. Can you give referenced statistics from reputable sources that would help me discern which it is?

As far as divine intervention–well, a lot of us **are **hearing the call.

Please note that I didn’t say divine intervention; I said direct divine intervention; I was making a reference to Revelation.

In the next life, when we are frollicking with the lambs and the lions, please come up to me and introduce yourself, Drawmack. How will I recognise you??? Oh, I’m sure I will just know!!! You will be the one with the sheepish grin on your face!!! I love ya brother, even if you do eat meat!!!

Cute!!! Yes I look forward to the next life as well – when we won’t have to eat period let alone meat.

I love you too, even if you don’t eat meat.

 

[Marfran]

johngh: An excerpt from Dominion by Matthew Scully:

Many of us, when we pause to think on animals, fear that as our concern for them extends, our concern for each other shrinks. We hear this fear in the familiar complaint about all those Greenpeace types up there trying to protect baby seals, or out on the high seas throwing themselves between whaler and whale, and so on, but who don’t seem to care about people. Where is their compassion for the poor, or homeless, or the handicapped? Anything we give the creatures must be extra, the unwanted scrap tossed from our moral table. The French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre put this suspicion best: “When one loves animals and children too much, one loves them against human beings.”

Surely the interesting thing in that maxim is the inclusion of children, who though a world apart from the animals, are also vulnerable to human caprice and who seem to share with animals some natural bond, an instinctive kinship beautifully captured in William Blake’s poem “The Lamb.” The other interesting thing is its complete misunderstanding of love. Since when does love ever diminish as we spread it around? Among humans it usually works the other way. So too in our dealings with the animals we know best.

When you bring a dog into the house, is he absorbing love and attention that would otherwise go to household members? Typically, if we treat the creature right, he or she has something to give back, and indeed many parents get pets in the first place so that the kids might learn to think beyond themselves and to care for other beings. Neither you nor the dog are ever confused about who’s running the show or who had dominion, except maybe when you’re away. You do not ask more of him than he can give, nor do you think less of Scruffy because he can’t rake the leaves or handle the family finances. You don’t even think of him as having “rights” and yet, useless as he is to the practical affairs of the household, over time he comes to fill a crucial place. He’s just sort of there, this furry funny, needful, affectionate, and mysterious being creeping around the house. Everybody in the end gains something, and when he or she is gone a little bit of love has been subtracted.

It is the same with animals generally. I once saw a television show called Wild Rescues in which two men of twenty or so were out deer hunting when they came across a doe drowning in a muddy river. Their videotape of the rescue showed them struggling for over an hour to save her. Finally they dragged her out and she darted off into the woods. On their own terms it was a completely irrational act–she could wind up in their gun sights the next day. And yet they seemed enormously pleased at the deed–“just knowing” as one of the men put it, “that we gave her one more day of life.”

On the same program you can see people rushing to the aid of beached whales and dolphins, orphaned seals, oil-covered gulls, penguins, and other sea creatures. The striking thing is how satisfied they all feel afterward. None of them ever describes embarrassed feelings of wasted time or of having cared too much about the stricken animal. A variety of programs have been devised in recent years involving the care of animals by troubled children, violent criminals, the handicapped, and the lonely aged. Far from stealing away charity and compassion from the human heart, we are just now discovering the gift many animals have for bringing those qualities back to life.

 

[Drawmack]

And the elderly lady living alone with a houseful of 100 cats, doesn’t necessarily love animals more, she just doesn’t know how to say “no,” or is obsessive compulsive, or has some other psychiatric disorder.

Off topic, but needs to be addressed. There is a paramesium (at least I think it’s a parasite) in cat feces which infects the brains of other animals and makes them have an unquestioning love for cats. In the wild this parasite infects entire groups of the cats’ prey making them easier to catch and eat. In domestic cats this can infect humans; women are more susceptible to it than men. If anyone is interested in looking it up it was a study done a UCB.

 

[Marfran]

Did we just agree on something? I love you too, even if you don’t eat meat.

I have to run off to work now–yes, I have to work on Saturday–it’s always fun sparring with you, Drawmack–you are very opinionated (who isn’t!!!) and always civil too. I appreciate that!!! Yes, these discussions can sometimes get heated–but isn’t it nice that we have a place like this to share and exchange ideas and thoughts!!!

 

[johngh]

I guess I should be more clear when I say some things. I didn’t really mean that there were people out there that if they had to choose between the life of an animal and the life of a person they would choose the animal. I sincerely hope there are not people like that.

What I was referring to are all the people that care soo much about animal rights, devote time and energy and money to fighting for animal rights, and then don’t seem to care at all about things such as abortion or hunger. I agree we should treat animals humanely, of course we should. But when things like abortion and starvation continue to exist in this world, I think we should place much higher importance on that.

Also, just an interesting aside. Ever notice how in movies, thousands of people can die on the screen and no one cares. But the second an animal dies, people feel so bad for the animal. Or how in the real world murder happens every day and rarely is a big deal made of it. But the instant someone abuses an animal, it’s all over the news. Just seems awfully disproportionate to me.

 

[Drawmack]

When you bring a dog into the house, is he absorbing love and attention that would otherwise go to household members? Typically, if we treat the creature right, he or she has something to give back, and indeed many parents get pets in the first place so that the kids might learn to think beyond themselves and to care for other beings. Neither you nor the dog are ever confused about who’s running the show or who had dominion, except maybe when you’re away. You do not ask more of him than he can give, nor do you think less of Scruffy because he can’t rake the leaves or handle the family finances. You don’t even think of him as having “rights” and yet, useless as he is to the practical affairs of the household, over time he comes to fill a crucial place. He’s just sort of there, this furry funny, needful, affectionate, and mysterious being creeping around the house. Everybody in the end gains something, and when he or she is gone a little bit of love has been subtracted.

I disagree with this paragraph. I would never own a pet that did not serve a practical purpose to the family. I have owned (actually currently own one) cats for rodent control. I have owned dogs, but never a dog that wasn’t trained in herding, hunting, or guarding. I have bought pets for my daughter so that she may experience the complete richness and fullness of life, including death and dying, through an animal with a significantly shorter lifespan than a human. Just my opinion.

 

[JaneGrey]

I guess I should be more clear when I say some things. I didn’t really mean that there were people out there that if they had to choose between the life of an animal and the life of a person they would choose the animal. I sincerely hope there are not people like that.

What I was referring to are all the people that care soo much about animal rights, devote time and energy and money to fighting for animal rights, and then don’t seem to care at all about things such as abortion or hunger. I agree we should treat animals humanely, of course we should. But when things like abortion and starvation continue to exist in this world, I think we should place much higher importance on that.

Also, just an interesting aside. Ever notice how in movies, thousands of people can die on the screen and no one cares. But the second an animal dies, people feel so bad for the animal. Or how in the real world murder happens every day and rarely is a big deal made of it. But the instant someone abuses an animal, it’s all over the news. Just seems awfully disproportionate to me.

I am not trying to get a reaction here but you are not going to like what I am going to say. I actually love my pets more than I love certain people I know and definitely more than a random stranger. That said, I dont know what I would if I was put into the horrible situation of having to save one over the other. Since I love my pets more than the stranger, I want to believe that I will save my pet,and I well might. However I also have a huge amount of compassion for people and I dont like to see ANYONE suffer. So what I might actually do I dont know.

The difference between an animal and human in distress is that, depending on age and other factors, the human has more understanding of what is happening to them. If they are a religious person they are luckier because then they believe in a God they can pray to for help and strength. No one can say for sure what really goes on in the minds of animals, but they are like permanent babies. Their minds are unsure of anything that happens to them unexpectedly. This added aspect of the unknown must add to thei suffering. The same for me would apply to a young child. By the way, I love many people in my life along with my animals so its not true that animal lovers shun themselves from society either. I dont see anything wrong with caring for mine as much as I do when I know that I do enough for the people in my life.

 

[4elise]

I guess I should be more clear when I say some things. I didn’t really mean that there were people out there that if they had to choose between the life of an animal and the life of a person they would choose the animal. I sincerely hope there are not people like that.

What I was referring to are all the people that care soo much about animal rights, devote time and energy and money to fighting for animal rights, and then don’t seem to care at all about things such as abortion or hunger. I agree we should treat animals humanely, of course we should. But when things like abortion and starvation continue to exist in this world, I think we should place much higher importance on that.

Also, just an interesting aside. Ever notice how in movies, thousands of people can die on the screen and no one cares. But the second an animal dies, people feel so bad for the animal. Or how in the real world murder happens every day and rarely is a big deal made of it. But the instant someone abuses an animal, it’s all over the news. Just seems awfully disproportionate to me.

How would you measure ‘a much higher importance’? really? I think that the Holy Spirit moves us in this world if we are open to this movement - some are called to be missionaries, some devote their entire lives to ending abortion, others to work with the homeless, some do prison or hospital ministry, and yes others care for God’s creation by caring for the creatures who can not speak for themselves. This is all God’s work right?

 

[4elise]

I am not trying to get a reaction here but you are not going to like what I am going to say. I actually love my pets more than I love certain people I know and definitely more than a random stranger. That said, I dont know what I would if I was put into the horrible situation of having to save one over the other. Since I love my pets more than the stranger, I want to believe that I will save my pet,and I well might. However I also have a huge amount of compassion for people and I dont like to see ANYONE suffer. So what I might actually do I dont know.

The difference between an animal and human in distress is that, depending on age and other factors, the human has more understanding of what is happening to them. If they are a religious person they are luckier because then they believe in a God they can pray to for help and strength. No one can say for sure what really goes on in the minds of animals, but they are like permanent babies. Their minds are unsure of anything that happens to them unexpectedly. This added aspect of the unknown must add to thei suffering. The same for me would apply to a young child. By the way, I love many people in my life along with my animals so its not true that animal lovers shun themselves from society either. I dont see anything wrong with caring for mine as much as I do when I know that I do enough for the people in my life.

There was I believe a John Paul II quote that I can’t locate just now that said something to the effect that the suffering of animals is difficult to justify because they can not benefit from it… as it a human who could ‘offer up’ pain to grow in sanctity - does anyone know that quote?

 

[Mickey_Finn]

MARFRAN, The Humane Society of the United States. Has zero credibility. They lack both trustworthiness and expertise.

ATB

 

[mercifulJan]

MARFRAN, The Humane Society of the United States. Has zero credibility. They lack both trustworthiness and expertise.

ATB

Please give facts about the HSUS. No group is perfect, and I think they have been doing a lot of good which is something all of us should be doing. Sure, they have lots of money, but so does a lot of institutionalized organizations.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think you answer the question really well, and I agree with your conclusions.
There are other uses of these vast areas where grasses grow - apparently some grasses are potential for ethanol - seems to solve two problems!

Anyone who has ever actually seen how rapidly wildlife takes over any abandoned area would not doubt that they would do so on a larger scale as well as a smaller one.

The only grass I have ever seen touted as an ethanol production source is switchgrass. It is a “tallgrass prairie” grass and will most definitely not grow everywhere, e.g., the very extensive “shortgrass prairies” worldwide. As a “warm season” grass, its growing season is also short. Inasmuch as it is not, to my knowledge, used for ethanol production presently, except, seemingly on an experimental basis, I have no particular reason to believe it will be so used in the future.

My actual point was not that the whole country will turn vegan. I can’t imagine that happening. What I do wonder is what use vegans think a very large portion of this country (and others) would be used for if not for domestic animal grazing. Most grasslands can’t be farmed for row crops, and grass is inedible to humans. Given that such areas now produce food in the form of domestic animals, what I am wondering is how vegans picture utilization of such lands, if at all, and how they think the overall food supply would be affected if everyone attempted to totally depend on plant foods.

It does seem to me that before people recommend vegetarian diets for all, they should be prepared to explain, in practical terms, how it would work if universally applied. So far, it does not seem to me they have.

 

[Zundrah]

So, it’s okay for animals to kill animals and eat them, but not okay for humans to do it. Is it okay for animals to eat humans, or should we take steps to prevent that, like killing predators?

Wish somebody would address what we do with the grasslands. Just leave them for the buffalo, elk, deer and the wild cattle and horses that manage to escape? (Actually, I guess wild horses and some wild cattle are already out on the prairies, aren’t they?)

On a similar note; why did GOD MAKE THOSE EVIL LOOKING DINOSOURS? THEY LOOK SO SAVAGE, DO YOU THINK THAT WHEN THEY EXISTED THEY ACTUALLY PREYED ON HUMANS AT SOME POINT?

 

[Drawmack]

On a similar note; why did GOD MAKE THOSE EVIL LOOKING DINOSOURS? THEY LOOK SO SAVAGE, DO YOU THINK THAT WHEN THEY EXISTED THEY ACTUALLY PREYED ON HUMANS AT SOME POINT?

Fossil evidence indicates that Humans and Dinosaurs did not live at the same time period. I’m not expert, so there may be some overlap but for the most part humans and dinosaurs did not walk the earth at the same time according to the fossil record.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Please give facts about the HSUS. No group is perfect, and I think they have been doing a lot of good which is something all of us should be doing. Sure, they have lots of money, but so does a lot of institutionalized organizations.

Hi mercifulJan. I’ll knock together some facts for you. First chance I get today.
But I’ll start by questioning what good the HSUS has done? This is a mind field. So, watch your step.

 

[Marfran]

MARFRAN, The Humane Society of the United States. Has zero credibility. They lack both trustworthiness and expertise.

ATB

Mickey: I suggest you view the documentary film Food, Inc.. It is currently playing in select theaters across the country.

foodincmovie.com/

The USDA, the Cattlemen’s Association, the Dairy Association, the Egg Council, and the large companies that produce our food in these factory farms like Smithfield, Con-Agra, Perdue, Tyson, McDonald’s Corp, Monsanto (yes, a chemical company)…these companies have zero credibility and lack trustworthiness–they are not only abusing animals, their monopolies abuse human workers, squeeze out the small farmer, produce unhealthy and hazardous food… Bet you don’t know what McDonalds has added to their hambuger (and has not told the public about) to help reduce e-coli outbreaks. Bet you don’t know why we are seeing so many e-coli outbreaks. Greed, money, corruption figure into the mix. In addition to the abuses to animals there are a lot of consequences to humans.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Mickey: I suggest you view the documentary film Food, Inc.. It is currently playing in select theaters across the country.

foodincmovie.com/

The USDA, the Cattlemen’s Association, the Dairy Association, the Egg Council, and the large companies that produce our food in these factory farms like Smithfield, Con-Agra, Perdue, Tyson, McDonald’s Corp, Monsanto (yes, a chemical company)…these companies have zero credibility and lack trustworthiness–they are not only abusing animals, their monopolies abuse human workers, squeeze out the small farmer, produce unhealthy and hazardous food… Bet you don’t know what McDonalds has added to their hambuger (and has not told the public about) to help reduce e-coli outbreaks. Bet you don’t know why we are seeing so many e-coli outbreaks. Greed, money, corruption figure into the mix. In addition to the abuses to animals there are a lot of consequences to humans.

I have been in production facilities of both ConAgra and Tyson’s. I’m not sure I understand why they lack credibility when it comes to treatment of animals or sanitation. And I definitely don’t understand how they are abusing small farmers, since they contract with small farmers.

Maybe you can tell me how, exactly, ConAgra and Tyson’s maltreat animals, and how their sanitation is bad. Perhaps you can explain how it’s worse than the way Old McDonald operated his farm. I’m old enough to remember that, too.

As a cattleman, I would like very much to know just how you think people like me mistreat animals or cause e coli outbreaks. Or were you talking about Tyson and ConAgra in that regard?