Should Christians support Palestine?

[CCM08]

Dispenstationalism is a crock of you know what. The 19th century was a time when the protestant world produced a lot of really wierd theories and rhetoric, all of it unless, baseless, and false.

Does Israel deserve to exist? I think we ought to look at the Jews for the answer to that question.

Q: Does the majority of the world’s Jewish population live in Israel? A:No

Q: Does a significant minority of the world’s Jewish population live in Israel:
A:No

Q: Are lots of Jews packing up and moving to Israel:
A:No, in fact Israel is in the process of rapidly depopulating at the rate of 10 Jews leaving for every new arrival.

Q: Where are those Jews arriving in Israel coming from?
A:Most of them from FSU states.

Q: Are they leaving because of religious intolerance?
A:While many Slavs have attitudes on foreigners and Jews that wouldn’t be politically correct in the west there’s no sysmatic persecution taking place. Like Slavic Christians moving into western Europe and North America Jews in FSU states are simply looking for new economic prospects. The choice to go to Israel is simply a matter of slam dunk immigration that they wouldn’t have else where.

The truth is simply that even the Jews don’t really want Israel. Flag waving Zionism of western Jews is proof of the point, if they actually had the courage of their convictions they’d pack up and move to Israel. But they don’t, and why would they? Israel has no economy, some tourism but that is held heavily in check by the fact most westerners won’t go because of moral objections or fear of the violence. Very limited natural resources, and the list goes on and on. It’s a welfare state that exists on foriegn aid programs and western guilt.

 

[Hesychios]

Read Jeremiah 35-37

There are Jesus believing Jews living in that country witnessing to their bretheren. And those Israeli Christians believe that God has restored them to that land. How shameful it is to say that this tiny nation that is hated by the world and is pressured to give their land up to Arabs for “peace”; that they have nothing to do with Gods prophecy.

Read Ezekial 36
Verse 22 says God is not doing all these things for their sake, but for the sake of HIS HOLY NAME-"THE GOD OF ISRAEL-THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB(ISRAEL).

The Palestinians are descended from the Jews and Samaritans of the land.

After 1200 or more years of Arab domination, it is no surprise that they have exchanged Aramaic for Arabic. I would be very excited to see the DNA of Palestinians studied against the DNA of the Israelis. It is a fascinating prospect!

First they became Christians, then after the conquest most were compelled, coerced or enticed to become Muslims. But they are definitely inheritors of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The ethnic cleansing policies of the Israeli government can no more be Biblically justified than can slavery. Wrong is wrong.

 

[Lev23]

The Palestinians are descended from the Jews and Samaritans of the land.

After 1200 or more years of Arab domination, it is no surprise that they have exchanged Aramaic for Arabic. I would be very excited to see the DNA of Palestinians studied against the DNA of the Israelis. It is a fascinating prospect!

First they became Christians, then after the conquest most were compelled, coerced or enticed to become Muslims. But they are definitely inheritors of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The ethnic cleansing policies of the Israeli government can no more be Biblically justified than can slavery. Wrong is wrong.

What are you talking about?

Dont you know “palestinians” that live in Israel can serve on the Knesset?

Dont you know that the PLO wants in this “peace” aggreement?

It is all of Gaza, West Bank, and right of return to Israel of 4-5 million “palestinians”. Add that to the million or so of them living IN Israel already, those right of returns would outnumber the Jews already, gaining political control of the government and thus making it easier for them to wipe Israel, the people and the land, off the map.

 

[Hesychios]

What are you talking about?

Dont you know “palestinians” that live in Israel can serve on the Knesset?

Dont you know that the PLO wants in this “peace” aggreement?

It is all of Gaza, West Bank, and right of return to Israel of 4-5 million “palestinians”. Add that to the million or so of them living IN Israel already, those right of returns would outnumber the Jews already, gaining political control of the government and thus making it easier for them to wipe Israel, the people and the land, off the map.

I support the right of return for all Palestinians.

Israel IS a democracy, is it not? Let them in, give them the vote and let democracy flourish in the Holy Land!

 

[rtconstant]

Prophecy from the God of Israel

Ezekial 36:33-36
‘This is what the Soveriegn Lord says:
On the day I cleanse you from all your sins,
I will resettle the land your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.
The desolate land will be cultivated instaed of laying desolate
in the sight of all who pass through it.
They will say: “This land that has laid waste has become
like the garden of Eden;
the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed;
now are FORTIFIED and inhabitied.”
Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate.
I THE LORD HAVE SPOKEN, AND WILL DO IT.’

Ezekial 38:10-11
"This is what the Soveriegn Lord says:On that day, thoughts will come into your(Gog) mind and you will devise an evil scheme. You will say, “I will invade a land of UNWALLED villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people–ALL of them living without walls and without gates and bars.”

There will be a time the worldy “peace” keepers will convince that these walls of security be taken down, and reading from prophecy, they will succeed in this effort.

Palestinian Christians need to be Christians first, and palestinian second. They need to check the scriptures of the God of Israel to see what his prophecy says.

The prophecy you quoted was fulfilled before the birth of the Roman Empire it has nothing to do with today. Israel, is still accountable for cruelty. The state of Israel took the land that it is currently controlling and as such it must reap the consequences of its actions. Being descended from Abraham is not license to kill or to sin.

As to the comment about Palestinian Christians being “Christian first” I think you might want to take your own advice. Palestinian Christians should not have to endure racism and persecution because westerners feel guilty.

Nor should they have to endure persecution because of some misplaced concept that the existance Israel might usher in the end times. You’re compassion would be better spent on your own people who are persecuted for no other reason than ancestry.

 

[2shelbys]

Read Jeremiah 35-37

And those Israeli Christians believe that God has restored them to that land.

So what? The Palestinians believe God wants them to have it. Who are we do decide who is right? Especially in light of the fact the the Israeli Christians are not the ones in control of the land.

How shameful it is to say that this tiny nation that is hated by the world and is pressured to give their land up to Arabs for “peace”;

Their land? It has only been “theirs” for 60 years. It was only theirs for a few hundred years in total after they invaded it and took it from the Caananites and Philistines. It has belonged to others for the vast majority of it’s 3000-year history. BTW, did you know that “Palestine” and “Palestinian” are derivitaves of the Roman word for “Philistine” and that the Philistines were there long before the Hebrews? This issue is not nearly as simple as so many Christians are led to believe.

 

[2shelbys]

The state of Israel took the land that it is currently controlling…

Actually, they did not even do that. The used political machinations to have the land that was taken from others by Great Britian given to them as though it was somehow owed to them and we are supposed to believe that the people who once lived there and/or their descendants are evil for wanting it back. Granted, many of them act in overtly evil ways but both sides are guilty of evil acts.

 

[sandmountainsli]

I agree that one should consider all points of view.

.

Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
“You can’t open your mind, boys
To every conceivable point of view.”
-Bob Dylan

 

[lanceg]

I think Christian Zionism is a destructive ideology. It does not recognize the humanity of the Palestinians, it does not respect the Christianity of the Palestinian Christians, and the Jews themselves are merely extras in the grandiose dispensationalist Christian fantasy drama that is set in Israel.

What is just is a two state solution. Christians should recognize the right of both the Israelis and the Palestinians to have a nation.

Christians should be trying to foster peace between Christian, Muslim and Jew, rather than exacerbating the situation with their misguided and immature end-time fantasies. It is so lazy to indulge these fantasies, based on a dispenationalist theology that is barely 150 years old, instead of doing the hard work of peace. But our Lord said blessed are the peace makers, and the Scriptures enjoin us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

 

[seekerz]

How about supporting all right no matter who does it and condemning all wrong in the same manner?

Why do so many of us feel the need to take sides? That’s partly what fuels the unpleasantness and hatred. If someone killed my parents/brothers/sisters (whether I were Jew or Palestinian) and people in some far-removed corner of the globe stepped in to voice support for the perpetrators, I might feel inclined to hate those people too.

 

[jack_hawkins]

This is a common misconception

no, it isn’t

God does not have a chosen “nation”. He has a chosen people and at the time those words were first uttered there was not merely one Jewish people nor one “Israel”

people and nation were the same at that time,so your point is moot

I have struggled with this misconception for some time because, as a Catholic, I have a real problem with referring to a people who do not accept the son of God and who follow teachings passed down from the Pharisees, as God’s chosen people. We all know how Jesus felt about the Pharisees. The modern State of Israel has pretty much nothing to do with the Jews who followed the son of God and you would have a very hard time convincing me that they are God’s “chosen nation”.

well that promise is eternal, so Israel are still God’s chosen people

 

[jack_hawkins]

How about supporting all right no matter who does it and condemning all wrong in the same manner?

Why do so many of us feel the need to take sides? That’s partly what fuels the unpleasantness and hatred. If someone killed my parents/brothers/sisters (whether I were Jew or Palestinian) and people in some far-removed corner of the globe stepped in to voice support for the perpetrators, I might feel inclined to hate those people too.

but that sentiment ignores the fact that the truth is incredibly hard to find, esp when credulous media sources believe obvious lies and hoxes eg about Israel attacking an ambulance in the recent war when it had never happened
Muslims are intrinsically untrustworthy, so on that basis I tend to believe the Israeli version

 

[2shelbys]

no, it isn’tpeople and nation were the same at that time,so your point is moot

Sorry Jack, but you could not be more wrong. Israel was only a nation for the the blink of an eye in history and God’s people were scattered all over the region.

well that promise is eternal, so Israel are still God’s chosen people

God’s chosen people are indeed still here but I do not agree that the people who run the modern State of Israel and who shun the Son of God are those people. How could they be?

 

[Biblioassistant]

Israel is a racist state because it enforces an aparthied based on race. Very very few Jews in Israel are religious, in fact Israel as the largest percentage of people that self identify as atheists in the world. While the Muslims most certainly continue (as Muslims have always done everywhere they’ve ruled) to oppress religious minorities it is a religious issue and not a racial one.

Then why is it that Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel are able to vote, serve in the Knessit and serve in the Army just as Jewish citizens of Israel? Doesn’t sound very racist to me. I agree with many of the posters that neither Israel and Palestine have pure white hats in all this, but speaking for myself, I’d rather be a Palestinian and live in Israel, than a Christian and live and work in Saudi Arabia. I think we throw the word racist around way too much nowadays.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I think there’s some people who need to look at the Biblical promises about the Jews! The Muslims want to destroy Israel because of the prejudices of their prophet - and it amazes me how infected with the secular world people are that they follow the Liberal line and want to side with the Levantine Arabs who are pawns in the Islamic plan for destruction of Israel. There is nothing the Muslims will not do - smuggle bombs in limb prostheses, use pregnant women for attacks etc etc. Against that mentality it is inevitable that harsh measures will be necessary.

 

[seekerz]

but that sentiment ignores the fact that the truth is incredibly hard to find, esp when credulous media sources believe obvious lies and hoxes eg about Israel attacking an ambulance in the recent war when it had never happened
Muslims are intrinsically untrustworthy, so on that basis I tend to believe the Israeli version

On what basis do we decide which media stories to believe? Can we trust the cable news gurus here any more than those across the ocean? We see the way news is presented to play on people’s emotions. We see the way religion tends to be ridiculed. Would they have much objectivity in other areas?

If the truth is so hard to find maybe Christians need to just keep quiet and pray for all concerned. I wouldn’t like to have to answer for excusing violent attacks on innocents or for having my tax dollars used to support wrong-doing without a murmur from me. Only God knows the real truth so we should leave it to him to decide who’s right and wrong.

Any taking of sides not only deepens the hatred and violence, but makes us targets.

Incidentally, I believe it is unChristian to state that “Muslims are intrinsically untrustworthy”. Let he who is without ‘untrustworthiness’ in his home, workplace, government or self cast the first stone.

 

[manualman]

CCM,

You still hold a preposterous principle. According to YOU, we should ignore and excuse the muslim oppression and violence commited against non-muslims (especially Jews) because it is religion-based hatred and focus on Israel’s injustice to Palestinians because it is ethnic-based. There is no difference and to state that Jews merely need to convert to eliminate the problem makes YOU sound like a muslim.

Jews have been in Palestine effectively forever. The 1900’s merely saw a mass migration that was accelerated by WWII, not caused by it. It could have been handled at least as well as the mass immigration of Irish to America was, but for the xenophobic culture of Islamic Palestine. True, there were militaristic Zionists, but they were the loony fringe like David Duke was in American politics of the 80’s/90’s. Zionism gained popularity and power when Palestinian behavior made any other response suicidal.

I agree that the idea of christian Zionism is fatally flawed and a recipe for continued disaster. I ALSO claim that to ignore the fundamental conflict and propose immediate one OR two states and American-style democracy would be as stupid in Israel/Palestine as it has been in Iraq. Learn something, would ya?

The solution MUST incorporate TWO crucial principles.

1. Israel must be allowed a border that is defensible against conventional military attack AND hit and run/hide attacks. Naturally, this does NOT give them the right to buffers on illegal settlements, but they DO have the right to such a buffer zone in long-established legitimate communities.
2. Palestine must be a viable nation in terms of size, interconnectedness and transportation. They must be given the right to sovereign borders AND be responsible for ensuring that this sovereignty is not taken advantage of. Illegal settlements built outside the 1967 boundaries should be given back. Some sort of elevated rail system could be built to link the West Bank and Gaza consistent with #1 above.

Some might see the above as one-sided, but I still say that ANY solution must consider the cultural mindsets of each. It MEANS something that you frequently hear of crowds of Palestinians doing death chants and lionizing suicide bombers and RARELY hear of such things on the Israeli side.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I believe it is unChristian to state that “Muslims are intrinsically untrustworthy”.

it isn’t - have you heard of taqqiya?
I base my opinion on the evidence including the examples mentioned
as for bias, it has been acknowledged that the BBC for example is biased towards the Palestinians - and even they don’t paint the Israelis as the guys in the black hats
you only have to look at the actions of the surrounging Arab nations to see what the agenda is

 

[Valke2]

So what? The Palestinians believe God wants them to have it. Who are we do decide who is right? Especially in light of the fact the the Israeli Christians are not the ones in control of the land.

Their land? It has only been “theirs” for 60 years. It was only theirs for a few hundred years in total after they invaded it and took it from the Caananites and Philistines. It has belonged to others for the vast majority of it’s 3000-year history. BTW, did you know that “Palestine” and “Palestinian” are derivitaves of the Roman word for “Philistine” and that the Philistines were there long before the Hebrews? This issue is not nearly as simple as so many Christians are led to believe.

Who do you think the Philistines were?

 

[Vaclav]

it has been acknowledged that the BBC for example is biased towards the Palestinians

On the contrary, the BBC gets attacked for being biased towards the Israelis by some and biased towards the Palestinians by others.

It isn’t quite as cut and dry as it is made out to be here.

Then why is it that Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel are able to vote, serve in the Knessit and serve in the Army just as Jewish citizens of Israel? Doesn’t sound very racist to me.

And then there are entire cities where Arab Muslims and Christians are not allowed to live and land they are not allowed to purchase, even as citizens of Israel. Moreover, the Israeli Government has simply taken homes held by Arabs and assigned them to the West Bank or Gaza, even when those individuals and their families have lived in those homes for generations (and have never lived in the West Bank or Gaza).

That is exactly what South Africa did to the Black South Africans when they created the Bantustans and reassigned the population. They also called them separate “countries” and that way they could consider it an “illegal immigration” problem. Of course, just like Gaza and the West Bank, the Bantustans had no wealth to speak of as they were in abject poverty because of the laws and society created to punish them. Yet, that did not stop South African whites from pointing to the Bantustans and saying, “look, they can’t even build a reasonable society on their own!”

Pardon me if none of these arguments for supporting Israel without question impress me as I’ve seen them all before.

Jewish people are wonderful and have a beautiful faith, but the Israeli Government is not by any means an extension of that faith. Nor are all of their actions supported by the people of Israel. Nor are all the Israeli citizens Zionists (a fact that surprises many Americans).

Egypt and Jordan, as well as the PLO recognise Israel and have peace treaties. Israel and Syria are both to blame for the horrible mess they’ve created in Lebanon, a country whose sovereign borders neither nation respects in the least.

Israel is a land of two societies. One rather well-to-do and one impoverished, primarily due to the fact that the well-to-do society has removed them and expelled them from their land. These two societies cannot continue to exist in this state of flux forever. Even with the wall and two-state (Bantustan) system, it will eventually collapse. Arab Muslims and Arab Christians, as well as Israelis who take issue with the heavy handedness of their recent Governments will eventually break such a system down.

The question is, how will it collapse? Will it be similar to South Africa and relatively peaceful? Or, will it be more like Rhodesia and fall into civil war?