Should Churches charge for Sacraments?

[joeybaggz]

I think this question should be looked at on a “case by case” basis. There are dioceses where the financial aspect of running churches are lenient. And I know dioceses where the bishop has mandated $$'s in order to have the “services” of the church available (attending Catholic schools, use of Church buildings, etc.) Bottom line is I don’t think there is a universal standard; some parishes/dioceses are better off than others financially.
I know in the town I live in, the Catholic Church is relatively new, and is fully paid for by the generosity of some of the locals (and not all Catholic locals).
$$ in the church can be a vexing problem. I have two aunts who were Catholic (now deceased) who wouldn’t attend because of the parish policy of taking up a collection on holydays of obligation that fell during the week. They had the attitude that the Church is all about collecting as much money as possible. Sad!

 

[1ke]

by the secretary

OK, this is the long and the short of it: the secretary is NOT the pastor. Speak ONLY with the pastor. Explain to him what you have explained to us. Give him a gift. Ignore the “fee”.

I say this AS the parish (volunteer) secretary. This lady is a bonehead and you need to ignore her.

 

[1ke]

Actually he was referring to my comment that they asked me to pay $100 to have a mass said for my brother.

Whoops, just saw you saw the comment in question. It was not a funeral Mass. My brother was desperately sick with a heart condition and we were scared we were going to lose him so I asked for prayers.

You need to reach out to the diocese. Something is very wrong with this. Everywhere I know, the recommended donation for a mass is $10 US. And, if you give $0, they still have to say the mass.

I found this in the Edmonton archdiocese. The mass stipend offering suggestion is $10. NOT $100.

https://www.caedm.ca/Portals/0/documents/policies/411_MassOfferings1Jul13.pdf

https://www.caedm.ca/Portals/0/documents/policies/429_Stipends1Jul13.pdf

 

[JackMcCoy]

I can see ads in the Church bulletin now - $19,95 special for baptisms done this month. Bring coupon. LOL

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

You’re not paying for the sacrament itself, you’re paying for the pageantry surrounding the sacrament.

 

[DarkLight]

You’re not paying for the sacrament itself, you’re paying for the pageantry surrounding the sacrament.

I know our bishop has highlighted the ability to incorporate a wedding into a regular Mass, for couples who don’t want the pageantry.

 

[JackMcCoy]

That would be a cool thing.
Wedding during a regularly-scheduled Mass.

 

[phil19034]

I’ve read a handful of the comments and just wanted to add my 2 cents.

When I got married in my parish last year the church charged me a grand total of $0.00. I understand that some churches need assistance in paying for all the things everyone mentioned. I personally disagree with paying for the wedding because we as Catholics have no other option. If it was optional, I’d agree to the fee. Like Baptist can get married in their church or a house or a beach or anywhere. They have no regulation on marriage. I could see them charging. But for us as Catholic, we HAVE to use the priest. If it is in another diocese, or parish, I could see them charging. Otherwise, I disagree with it. It’s too close to simony in my opinion.

Now you can all disagree with me

If a parish can afford to move to that, I would totally agree 100%. However, the parish also has to keep in mind that once they make the switch, they can never switch back, which is why I think so parishes are hesitant to make this switch.

Also, I think sometimes it’s not Father who is maintaining this, but instead the parish council.

 

[Joe_5859]

Coming from the faith tradition I come from it’s difficult to see ‘building costs’ as justification.

Your posts have me thinking a bit. The Catholic Church has a fair bit more “infrastructure” than other Christian communities. A random “corner Church” might only have to pay for the building and the pastor’s salary. In the Catholic Church, the parish is also supporting the diocesan office, Catholic schools, etc. I also think a lot of Catholics don’t feel as invested in their local parish. They don’t have it in their mind that their parish relies on the generosity of the members to keep things going.

 

[phil19034]

We found through some local polling that some people think the Diocese sends money to the parish for support! That one got a good laugh.

The funny thing is that A LOT of people think the dioceses distribute money around the parishes - which they don’t. I’ve heard people say, “don’t the Bishops take money from the rich parishes and give it to the poor ones?” Again, they don’t.

I think this rummer started because some bigger dioceses, like the Archdiocese of Philadelphia used to BORROW money to help poor parishes with historical church buildings.

 

[DarkLight]

My understanding from what I know around here:

The couple is allowed , if they wish, some (name removed by moderator)ut into the music, provided that it is appropriate for the service and the season.

They are allowed to purchase decorations if they want, again provided they are appropriate. If not they will be provided however is normal for that parish.

The couple doesn’t typically have a separate procession, but they will often join the opening procession before heading to their seats. They may also bring up the gifts.

I think it’s an especially beautiful option for couples who may not have a lot of family or friends to invite and who wish to celebrate with their parish.

 

[DarkLight]

The funny thing is that A LOT of people think the dioceses distribute money around the parishes - which they don’t. I’ve heard people say, “don’t the Bishops take money from the rich parishes and give it to the poor ones?” Again, they don’t.

I think this rummer started because some bigger dioceses, like the Archdiocese of Philadelphia used to BORROW money to help poor parishes with historical church buildings.

It does I think happen in a few places where I am. Parishes take up a collection for the diocese. Money is given to support certain parishes. It’s primarily done for certain inner city parishes, where the parish would not be able to function without outside support.

 

[phil19034]

I’ve heard a priest say once that it costs the parish a few hundred dollars for each mass said in the main Church, which is why they use the daily mass chapel for daily mass.

The reason, the AC or heat (which is turned off / low during the week) needs to crank on to cool or heat the main nave. Due to the cathedral ceilings and vast size of the room, the AC/heating costs are quite high.

So this can play a part into the cost of a wedding. Plus, some parishes use a cleaning service where their contract is for X number of times a week. The problem with the weddings is that weddings are typically Friday night or Saturday, which are both usually outside the normal operating schedules of cleaning services.

When a wedding happens, there is often a need for the cleaning service to come in before Sunday masses. So the parish gets charged OT.

NOW - I think in the future, as more Gen X and Millennials take over the roles of pastor and parish councils, I think you are going to see the wedding fees dropped (at least for parishioners). But, the older generation is not as likely to drop this.

However, if and when it’s dropped, I think there will always be a “suggested donation.” I suspect most will continue to pass costs onto non-parishioners.

God bless.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

The funny thing is that A LOT of people think the dioceses distribute money around the parishes - which they don’t. I’ve heard people say, “don’t the Bishops take money from the rich parishes and give it to the poor ones?” Again, they don’t.

I think this rummer started because some bigger dioceses, like the Archdiocese of Philadelphia used to BORROW money to help poor parishes with historical church buildings.

It does I think happen in a few places where I am. Parishes take up a collection for the diocese. Money is given to support certain parishes. It’s primarily done for certain inner city parishes, where the parish would not be able to function without outside support.

Right, but that’s the exception and not the norm. And most dioceses are starting to move away from that and starting to close and merge parishes instead. The diocesan support of poor parishes is too expensive to continue.

 

[MT1926]

Should members of a parish be charged fees for sacraments?

I didn’t read all of the other posts but I’ll give my 2 cents (pun intended )

My quick answer is yes they should. The Church is basically a business that needs money to stay open.

That being said the Church is also a Charitable Organization so I would say no. To be honest I am not 100% sure if they can actually “send you a bill”. That would mean they are charging you for a service and this might effect their tax exempt status. Not sure maybe someone who knows tax law can chime in.

Two weeks after the wedding I received a message from the secretary informing me I needed to pay a ‘wedding fee’.

I believe the Church should have been up front and presented you with a recommended donation for the Church, the priest, the altar servers, choir, etc…

They should have also informed you that if you are unable to give a donation they have a separate fund for the unfortunate or underprivileged.

Literally the only thing I took from the Church in this was their secretary had to fill out some paperwork and the priests time.

This is the wrong mindset and I would not go their. I hate when patients use this on me. I am more than happy to go out of my way, free of charge, for anyone who needs it but when they take this attitude it shows me that they do not value my time and it puts them in a negative light. You don’t want to be put in this position in their eyes.

What do low income people do? Take up payment plans with the Church just so they can be married in the eyes of God?

This is the exact approach I would take up with your Pastor. Let him know that you were planning on giving a donation to the Church. Let him know that you were offended by the post wedding bill for service. Knowing ahead of time would have been nice, so you could have set aside more or made additional cuts to your budget.

Make sure you restate that it’s not that you don’t value his time or your Church but because this was not brought to your attention before the wedding. I would be upfront and ask him what the Church does for those who are unable to pay the fee. Be upfront with him and let him know that you set aside money even though you are one of the unfortunate. I would even ask him his thoughts on setting up a fund for the couples who can’t afford the fee. Because you would hate to see couples leave the Church over a simple misunderstanding.

Be open be honest. Don’t be all in his face but let him know how you feel. Maybe everyone else just complained to others, like you are doing here, and he never heard any complaints and thought all was well, not realizing why new couples were leaving his parish.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[TheLittleLady]

Prior to marriage:

At least 6 hours of “preparation sessions”, the cost of the FOCUS inventory.

Staff time to complete paperwork, assist with gathering sacramental records, etc. Let’s say all totled over the 6 month prep time, 3 manhours. Time on the phone with details like when can the flowers arrive and can the photographer come and look at the building before the date and can the musicians come in and rehearse, locking and unlocking the building for these, lets say another 3 hours.

We are at 12 hours of human time now.

Rehearsal:

Minimum of an hour, always after hours so you have to pay someone “overtime” to unlock/lock up.

Is the party getting dressed onsite? This means someone has to come in and open the building at least 2 hours to sometimes 6 hours ahead of the wedding time so all the girls can get makeup and dressed, photos can be taken of the dressing preparations. Flowers and other decore have to be put up. Let’s average all of this at 4 hours.

Pastor has to compose a homily, that is going to take him at least an hour.

We are at 18 parish hours minimum now and have not yet had the processional.

Wedding takes about an hour.

After the wedding is photograph time, at least another hour.

20 hours.

Someone has to clean the place where the wedding party got dressed (you would not believe the messes we have seen left behind), clean the Church, the bathrooms. This is at least 2 hours.

22 hours of staff time for a basic wedding. Starting wage at Target is 11 per hour, these professionals deserve at least equal pay?

All of this time people are using electricity, toilet paper, soap, and water, we have to have insurance to cover them while they are on property. Photocopies, postage, long distance phone calls from the office to coordinate documents. Wine and cleaning the altar linens and hosts.

It is conservative to say the average wedding costs a parish more than $250 to host a wedding.

 

[somecanadian]

I would have been down for that! I don’t see why they couldn’t have the wedding party process at the beginning of Mass the same way the parents of a baby process at a Baptismal mass. We sat for the homily and readings and only came up for the marriage sacrament itself so I just don’t see why it couldn’t be done at a regular Mass! Plus I think it would be a beautiful thing for the community although I see how it could be impractical for those who are inviting 200+ guests to their wedding! Haha.

 

[somecanadian]

We definitely come from similar parishes. Everything you said here applies to our church.

Most notably we did not have ‘preparation sessions’. We were given videotapes. We watched them. We answered a list of questions and we were done. All told it took us 3 hours? Maybe 4. We did not meet with the priest except initially to ask for the wedding and then again when everything was messed up by the first priest and then not again until the day of rehearsal.

 

[phil19034]

Prior to marriage:

At least 6 hours of “preparation sessions”, the cost of the FOCUS inventory.

Staff time to complete paperwork, assist with gathering sacramental records, etc. Let’s say all totled over the 6 month prep time, 3 manhours. Time on the phone with details like when can the flowers arrive and can the photographer come and look at the building before the date and can the musicians come in and rehearse, locking and unlocking the building for these, lets say another 3 hours.

We are at 12 hours of human time now.

Rehearsal:

Minimum of an hour, always after hours so you have to pay someone “overtime” to unlock/lock up.

Is the party getting dressed onsite? This means someone has to come in and open the building at least 2 hours to sometimes 6 hours ahead of the wedding time so all the girls can get makeup and dressed, photos can be taken of the dressing preparations. Flowers and other decore have to be put up. Let’s average all of this at 4 hours.

Pastor has to compose a homily, that is going to take him at least an hour.

We are at 18 parish hours minimum now and have not yet had the processional.

Wedding takes about an hour.

After the wedding is photograph time, at least another hour.

20 hours.

Someone has to clean the place where the wedding party got dressed (you would not believe the messes we have seen left behind), clean the Church, the bathrooms. This is at least 2 hours.

22 hours of staff time for a basic wedding. Starting wage at Target is 11 per hour, these professionals deserve at least equal pay?

All of this time people are using electricity, toilet paper, soap, and water, we have to have insurance to cover them while they are on property. Photocopies, postage, long distance phone calls from the office to coordinate documents. Wine and cleaning the altar linens and hosts.

It is conservative to say the average wedding costs a parish more than $250 to host a wedding.

OK, part of this argument doesn’t really work for me. When calculating costs, we should only be looking at overtime and costs incurred which would not have been incurred by the parish if there was no wedding at that time. We should not be looking at the costs for staff doing work when they would already be working (regardless if it gives them extra work to do).

I’m OK with a couple be asked to (not required) to reimburse the parish for actually hard dollars incurred by the parish due to the wedding, but not soft costs.

I.E. overtime pay for staff, actual increased costs to heating/AC, insurance, extra cleaning, etc. But not for work that the staff does during their regular working schedule.

You also can’t really talk about the priest’s homily - that would be part of the Mass stipend anyway.

 

[TheLittleLady]

It is not an inconvenience. However, people don’t just sit around the parish all day, eating bon bons and waiting for someone to come in.

We work hard, we get paid, our time is worthy of a paycheck. The parish does not operate on oxygen and prayers.