Should Churches charge for Sacraments?

[phil19034]

phil19034:

2 reasons:

1. Because more & more younger people are not getting married in the Church

Hmm… so, kind of a “it’s not really a source of revenue anymore, so let’s not bother continuing to ask for donations”? Isn’t that a self-defeating proposition?

1. because more & more younger people view it as paying for the Sacrament - they honestly view it the same way as paying for annulments.

So, this one seems based on poor catechesis. Should we, then, let people persist in their misunderstanding, or should we properly catechize them so that they don’t think that they’re “paying for the sacrament” or “paying for an annulment”?

Note: I don’t mean to imply that there will not be a “recommendation donation” … but that the parishes will lower the recommended donation amount for parishenors, explain what them money goes to much better, and perhaps ask for a Parish rental fee from non-parishenors

To tell you the truth, that’s what happens already (at least, in the parishes with which I’ve been affiliated with in the past)!

For example, there is NO valid reason why poorer Catholics cannot have a SMALL / BASIC wedding ceremony during a Saturday morning mass or even a Saturday evening mass.

In my diocese, there is. We’re not allowed to have wedding Masses on Sundays and holydays of obligation.

But, to tell the truth, my experience is that there’s usually no distinction between the wealth of the family and the desire to have a big, blow-out wedding. In fact, it’s often the case that the families without wherewithal want to show that they’re not destitute, and therefore, put on big, showy weddings. Not all, mind you, but many…

A lot of parishes I’ve seen, the donation comes across as a fee, similarly to the fees associated with child faith formation.

It’s not referred to as a “suggested donation” like it should be.

While people do need to be better catechized, the issue with the fees can also be seen in the secular world too. People, esp younger people, don’t like paying for “cost of doing business” items.

And unfortunately, they view the Parish more like a business than family.

We also have to remember that marriage, along with the Sacraments for their future kids, are opportunities to bring lukewarm Catholics back into the fold. We can’t afford silly misunderstandings to push them further away.

Explaining that it’s a donation and explaining exactly what it’s for (focusing on only hard dollar costs to the Parish) will go a long way.

God Bless

 

[Zaccheus]

@somecanadian

I don’t think they’re charging for the sacrament. They’re charging for the real expenses usually associated with holding a wedding.
Those expenses may have been minimal in your case. That does not mean they are minimal in all or even most cases. It may well cost the Church hundreds of dollars for the average wedding.

I would point out that the church never makes people pay for Confession or Communion. There is no such thing as a 'Mass fee" nor a fee for the Last Blessing.

As for the question of what low income people do: does your parish charge the same fees for a low income couple?

 

[phil19034]

In my diocese, there is. We’re not allowed to have wedding Masses on Sundays and holydays of obligation.

I never said Sunday. I did say Saturday evening mass, but I was really referring to the parishes where Saturday evening is a less popular mass.

Also, of all the weekend masses, the Sat evening one is where a Parish could get away with regularly offering Sacraments during mass, if ok with the diocese.

 

[Gorgias]

And unfortunately, they view the Parish more like a business than family.

I think this is at the heart of it, for many.

We also have to remember that marriage, along with the Sacraments for their future kids, are opportunities to being lukewarm Catholics back into the fold.

Interesting data point: in my diocese, we’re on the cusp of a major reorganization. (It’s happening because of the declining numbers of practicing Catholics, the drop in numbers of priests we’re experiencing (and will continue to experience over the next 20 years), and the expense of keeping underutilized buildings open and properly maintained.)

In one session in which diocesan representatives were explaining the dynamics that make this reorganization necessary, they mentioned something that caught my attention. They said that the current situation is a “perfect storm”:

• Baby boomers typically register as parishioners, attend Mass faithfully, and support their parishes financially. Unfortunately, they are our elderly parishioners, and their numbers are dropping as they pass away.
• Gen-X’ers don’t register as parishioners as much, don’t attend Mass as much, and don’t support their parishes as generously. There are fewer Gen-X’ers than Baby Boomers.
• Younger generations (millennials, for instance) tend not to register as parishioners – they don’t see the value-add. They don’t attend faithfully – at least, not at a single parish; they ‘float’ and go to Mass wherever it’s convenient on a particular day.

So, it’s a real double-whammy: we’re losing our strongest supporters, and they’re being ‘replaced’ by folks who don’t see the value of our communities and can’t be counted on for regular financial support.

One other data point: they said that Gen X’ers actually did do what you say: left the Church in their 20’s, but came back to marry, have children receive their sacraments, etc. What they said the statistics are showing is that this dynamic no longer exists, as it did earlier.

Explaining that it’s a donation and explaining exactly what it’s for (focusing on only hard dollar costs to the Parish) will go a long way.

I think that’s a good approach – at least, the ‘donation’ part. Itemizing costs tends to lead in the direction of a negotiation, which this isn’t.

 

[Gorgias]

I never said Sunday

Whoops! I misread your post! Sorry…!

 

[Augustinian]

Also, of all the weekend masses, the Sat evening one is where a Parish could get away with regularly offering Sacraments during mass, if ok with the diocese.

It really depends on the circumstances in the individual parish. If there is no resident priest due to a low Catholic population, and the parish priest only rolls into town weekly or less often, what would be wrong with having a wedding on Sunday morning?

 

[somecanadian]

I know this is taking the topic off topic but that’s how conversations work offline so I’m going to tag in. LOL.

I am technically a millennial. I do not come from the Catholic faith tradition but a Protestant non-denominational tradition.

That said, coming into the Catholic Church as a millennial my observation is that the Church is a pretty cold place. I mean you can accuse me of being the reason but I think it would be a bit short sighted to do so.

As someone who threw myself into becoming as actively involved in the parish as I could I found the reception was luke warm at best. So I cannot be accused of not trying.

During RCIA a Catholic man approached me and told me that if I wasn’t going to stay in the Church I’d better not bother converting.

A real warm reception you might say.

After my conversion it’s like we go to Mass, for an hour we worship and receive our Lord… then the minute Mass is over BAM everyone is gone.

There are parish activities, they are centered around the elderly so tend to happen in the afternoon on a work day so us younger folk who have day jobs cannot attend.

They have retreats, they cost tons of money and require time off work and travel which I cannot afford.

There are no Bible Studies or faith formation events that happen outside work hours. I tried to start a Bible study and was rebuffed because ‘nobody has time for that’.

There is a real … coldness to the Catholic Church (at least where I live) that does not exist in Protestant Churches. I have watched as many my age left to attend Protestant churches where there was faith formation, genuine community and a larger feeling of belonging.

Being Protestant won’t fix this problem, obviously, but I can honestly say if not for years of being Protestant and feeling the absence of Christ (physically) I might also have ended up leaving. I can’t imagine why any cradle Catholic would stay. They don’t understand what they have in the Eucharist because they’ve never NOT had it.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Also, of all the weekend masses, the Sat evening one is where a Parish could get away with regularly offering Sacraments during mass, if ok with the diocese.

It really depends on the circumstances in the individual parish. If there is no resident priest due to a low Catholic population, and the parish priest only rolls into town weekly or less often, what would be wrong with having a wedding on Sunday morning?

Nothing. I was referring to the poster who said weddings were not allowed on Sundays in his/her diocese.

But it think such rules need to go away. We need to make it much easier for people to have a small wedding in the Church’s d know all the options someone has.

 

[TheLittleLady]

his introductions to the short stories in the anthologies he edited were the highlights, not the stories themselves

As were those of the late Harlan Ellison.

 

[phil19034]

There are no Bible Studies or faith formation events that happen outside work hours. I tried to start a Bible study and was rebuffed because ‘nobody has time for that’.

This response is rediculous and based on people who are not willing to try anything new.

My parish offered adult faith formation sessions BOTH during the day and in the evening. While usually, the sessions are not the same, this past spring the Vicar ran a program and offered two sessions for it. One in the AM for retirees and one at 7PM or 7:30PM (can’t remeber which) for people who work.

It was great!

Also, we have a Bible study lead by our pastor that meets every other week on Sunday evenings and it is very well attended.

If the staff or priests don’t want to be involved with an evening Bible Study, talk to your pastor about you starting & leading one. Or you could also start a regional Bible Study using Accension Press’s Great Adventure Bible Study program. It will help you advertise so you can reach out to regional Catholics and start a group beyond the Parish if the Parish group doesn’t work.

You can also organize a Lectio study from the Augustine Institute
God Bless

 

[TheLittleLady]

You can also organize a Lectio study from the Augustine Institute

Again, part of Formed! It is really an amazing boon for parishes!

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m sorry that has been your experience, but please be assured that not every Catholic parish behaves that way. We have all sorts of Bible studies and other groups going on at my parish. And if you wanted to start another one, you’d be more than welcome to.

Regrettably, your experience is not as rare as it should be, though. We definitely need to play our part in fixing that.

 

[poche]

How much did this secretary ask for?
It is customary for the to request s stipend for the some of the sacraments like weddings and baptisms but in the event that someone is destitute then it is contrary to Canon Law for the Church to refuse the sacraments to anybody who asks for them and is appropriately disposed to receive them.

 

[Gorgias]

I know this is taking the topic off topic but that’s how conversations work offline so I’m going to tag in. LOL.

It’s all good!

That said, coming into the Catholic Church as a millennial my observation is that the Church is a pretty cold place. I mean you can accuse me of being the reason but I think it would be a bit short sighted to do so.

Nah… I get what you’re saying. I’ve experienced it, too, as a revert. I felt like an outcast for the first year or two at the parish I landed at when I came back, in my 30s.

To be honest, we Catholics really stink at fellowship. I mean, really, really stink at it. (I’m sure that this isn’t the case at all parishes, but my observations over the past 20 years, and the observations of others with whom I’ve talked, are that this is generally the case. At least here in the Rust Belt in the U.S.A.)

I don’t know, exactly, why we’re so bad at it. It might be from my perspective as a Catholic, looking out at Protestant communities, but my gut feel is that, since they don’t have the sacraments, and many don’t have a single ordained leader as the head of the parish… well, it led to more collaborative styles of ministry and relationships. (That might sound like an excuse, but I’m not trying to justify it.) Since we’re so “command and control” oriented, and used to thinking “meh… Father will take care of it”, we’ve abdicated our right to participate actively in parish life and ministry.

How do we fix it? One parishioner at a time, I guess. I was in the same situation you were, with respect to a Bible study. I went to my pastor, laid out the costs (showing him that I wasn’t coming to him with my hand held out for financial support), and described the plans for the study that I was volunteering to coordinate and lead. He thought it wouldn’t succeed, but when we got 40 people signed up – and they kept coming, week after week! – he was pleasantly surprised. Bible study is now an integral part of their ministries there.

So, we can make a difference, but it takes time (and, I’ve found, thick skin). If there’s nothing at your parish for millennials, start it yourself. Start it at your home, if necessary, and then bring it as an existing ministry to your pastor!

I think it’s worth it to be a part of the solution, rather than just identifying the problem…

 

[1ke]

There are parish activities, they are centered around the elderly so tend to happen in the afternoon on a work day so us younger folk who have day jobs cannot attend.

They have retreats, they cost tons of money and require time off work and travel which I cannot afford.

There are no Bible Studies or faith formation events that happen outside work hours. I tried to start a Bible study and was rebuffed because ‘nobody has time for that’.

Since you have a new pastor, I would encourage you to approach him (not the secretary) and try again. Don’t take “no one has time for that” as an answer-- you have time for it, you will host it, and you only want to announce it to others via the bulletin or at mass, etc. It may start small, but it can grow.

There is a real … coldness to the Catholic Church (at least where I live) that does not exist in Protestant Churches. I

We both live in a rural area, and I’d say it’s more a factor of that. Indeed it does vary widely. I’ve been in a huge 7000 family parish in the South, and now I’m in a rural 70 family parish in the Midwest with German roots. The urban parish in the South was super welcoming-- but that’s true more generally in the South as a whole. The rural parish has a much older population, it’s a farming community, the parish is only open for Mass on Sunday, and the people all know each other. The German roots of the parish are evident too, the Germans are more reserved than many other groups. Insular. But our parish is always called “friendly” by visitors. It’s definitely more friendly than some of the other ones around here!

I am a convert. I converted at 25. I found a place and I found welcome, but I’m pretty extroverted.

I married into this rural community, and it has taken me 13 years to be “in”-- and I still wouldn’t say I’m “in” although I do most of the actual work around the parish. A recent convert who has lived here all his life was more “in” than I was even before he converted. That’s the nature of small towns-- these people all went to high school together.

They don’t understand what they have in the Eucharist because they’ve never NOT had it.

I wouldn’t assume that.

 

[somecanadian]

I thought of clarifying after saying it. What I meant by my last comment was that cradle Catholics tend to leave, from what I’ve seen, because they do not appreciate what they have in the Eucharist. They are charmed by the welcoming, open, loving, vibrant Protestant churches and think that will fill the void they are feeling but they don’t realize those open, loving, vibrant Protestant churches have a different kind of void.

When I was Protestant I used to say that the body of Christ has been torn to pieces and in each church you can find a piece of that body. The Catholic Church is the brain, the Baptist is the heart, the Salvation Army is the hands, the Evangelical is the feet, etc. etc. etc.

I still sometimes feel that way. BUT I am basing that thought on my own experience so far which has been very insular.

 

[Sursum-Corda]

You received a specific special service for your wedding from the church.
It is therefore only right that you contribute to the cost.

The same applies to all services provided by the Catholic Church.
Those who can pay should.

The church does not charge for the sacraments because they will be provided free of charge in any case of necessity.

But the reality remains that priests and churches have to be maintained to function at all and this requires money.

 

[TC3033]

You received a specific special service for your wedding from the church.
It is therefore only right that you contribute to the cost.

True…and I get that, but my sticking point on this is:

OP requested to have their wedding as part of a normal mass, they were told no and they HAD to have their own wedding mass and then were hit with a bill after.

 

[Gorgias]

So, I wanted to reply to a poster who said that @somecanadian asked for a wedding during a normally-scheduled Mass and was told ‘no!’, and I went back through the thread to find where that was written. Instead, I found this:

Unfortunately the church doesn’t allow for a private ceremony with just the priest and us two that would be low cost and more convenient (should know, I asked LOL).

Mi_Rose:

One last thought. If it was just you the priest and two witnesses you might not have had to pay a wedding fee.

That’s what we wanted. We weren’t allowed to.

Wait… what??? If by ‘private’, you meant that you insisted on just priest and you two, then no, that’s not possible. However, you absolutely can have a wedding that’s just the priest, you two, and your two witnesses!

Something’s weird, here. Hopefully, it’s just that there was a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding…

 

[somecanadian]

Totally a lot of miscommunication. We hadn’t had a wedding in the Church before so had no idea what was going on. My family as a whole had NEVER had weddings in the Church either so they were not there to offer guidance. We didn’t ask questions we should have because we didn’t KNOW to and they presumed we knew what was going on. SO yeah, a storm.

BUT my intent was never to discuss MY situation but to examine the practice of charging fees for these life events. I’m still percolating on all the information given. It still feels wrong but this is honestly not the first or last ‘wrong’ thing I’ve stumbled upon so I’m getting quite good at just letting things go.

PS: This was my first ever (successful) post on the forum. Haha. I was pretty overwhelmed during the process and got cut off early on from responding because the forum has limits on replies. I never intended the conversation to get side-tracked to MY situation but felt the need to stand up for myself when people started coming at me in a rather aggressive way. That’s on me. I let the discussion get derailed onto MY situation when I shouldn’t have. I just ask that we let it go and focus on the question if we want to continue the discussion.