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chicago
Guest
Tell me, when ought Christmas be celebrated?
Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Come now chicago—don’t go about trying to throw this thread. As per Arch. Ranjith statements —inculturation has gone amok. So it really comes down to this—You or Arch. Ranjith. I would say he wins
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ncjohn
Guest
That’s the whole point, which I did address first in my post. It does NOT tell you either in this case. You don’t get to add rules that aren’t there. When it tells you to stand, you stand. The fact that it doesn’t tell you to breathe doesn’t mean you don’t breathe. The fact that it doesn’t say that you can or can’t put your hands on the back of the pew in front of you, or use them to hold a missalette or a child, doesn’t mean you can’t do those things.
It doesn’t tell you what you may do. It tells you–mostly the priest to tell the truth–what you are supposed to do when there is something specific you are supposed to do.
Maybe I can put this another way. What position does the GIRM tell you to put your hands in at the Our Father? What position does it tell you that you can NOT put them in?
Since it doesn’t say anything at all, how do YOU get to decide what the “acceptable” position is? There is no “tradition” or “custom” to fall back on as the Our Father as a communal recited prayer came into being at essentially the same time as the holding hands. Even in the TLM people didn’t have a specified position for their hands when the priest was saying the Pater Noster. Some might have had their hands folded or clasped. Some were holding children, some were holding their Missals, some rosaries or holy cards. Why is there suddenly such an uproar about people doing different things now?
And please don’t haul out the red herrings about if you can do one thing you can do anything. The discussion is about a particular prayer position that has been in practice for somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 years. There are procedures in place for the “doing jumping jacks” or “doing the wave”, to quote a couple of the favorite examples.
I will defend to the death your right to not be imposed upon or judged for your decision. The only thing I ask in return is for those who don’t want to do it to not make judgments about the rest of us, or try to impose their preference.
As St. Augustine so beautifully put it, “In essentials unity, in nonessentials diversity, in all things charity.”
Peace,
C
chicago
Guest
I think it quite pertinent to the topic at hand. For it was pagan culture Christianized.
Eh, I think I could take him out in the alley.
Still, I really don’t think he and I are opposed.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Now — by way of false inculturation christian culture is being de–christianized. If you don’t think the Arch. and you are opposed–you haven’t really paid attention to what he said vs. what you have said.
Your response for your idea of inculturation.
Quote=chicago
Or, perhaps, simply de-Romanization.
Arch. Ranjith
“Some negative aspects have been the quasi total abandonment of the Latin language, tradition and chant; a far too facile interpretation of what could be absorbed from local cultures into the Liturgy; a sense of misunderstanding of the true nature, content and meaning of the Roman rite and its norms and rubrics, which led to an attitude of free experimentation; a certain anti-Roman “feeling,” and an uncritical acceptance of all kinds of “novelties” resulting from a secularizing and humanistic theological and liturgical mindset overtaking the West”.
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adrift
Guest
The GIRM does not regulate individuals it is what the congregations does.
The op stated
This takes it out of individual and makes it a community action. It is when it becomes a community action, everyone doing it and it expecting it done, that the GIRM comes into play. Once it becomes standard practice and mandated it than goes against the GIRM and the priest is adding to the Mass.
from post 31
I don’t know where you get forty years. It wasn’t done in any of the parishes I went in 1967. It wasn’t done thirty years ago in 1977. It began about twenty maybe twenty five. Now please don’t say well it was done at this place or this place. It wasn’t done in most places.
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Seatuck
Guest
Holding hands has no history as a liturgical gesture and is not recognized as a gesture of the Mass.
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/bul3.shtml
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/bul3.shtml
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chicago
Guest
There is a difference between an “anti-Roman feeling” and critiquing Romancentracism. Each of those ideals are extremes. When what is needed is moderation of genuine inculturization without necessitating the sacrificing of the Latin rite. Such is possible with prudence. And I think this is what both the Archbishop and I are saying.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
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ncjohn
Guest
Agreed, although it does tell the individuals in the congregation what to do when there is a specific action to be taken.
And as I said in my own posts, neither priests nor anyone else (outside of the USCCB with the Vatican’s approval) is allowed to either mandate or forbid it. Becoming “standard practice” might indeed happen as parishes develop cultures just as every group of humans does. That does not make it mandatory however and if it comes to seeming mandatory the priest should step in and remind people to act charitably. I have seen that occur and actually asked our own parish priest to do so even though we don’t have any issues with it that I’m aware of. In the end, if it is not directed, it is still the spontaneous choice of individuals.
We have at least one poster here who claims to have evidence of it existing in the late 60’s. It was widespread by 1975 when the Noticiae was written which is why the issue was addressed. You may not have encountered it but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.
I think we are in agreement that nobody should be imposing this on anyone. There is a big difference though between that and saying it is not allowed.
I have no problem at all with people not liking the practice, and don’t disagree with some of their reasons. I was on that side of the fence myself for many years. I only take issue when people start telling people they are not allowed to do it or when they start making judgments about people because they find value in it. But then I take issue when it goes the other direction too as I know many fine Catholics on both “sides” of the issue, and hate that it generates such strong emotions because of the lack of charity by a few on the edges in each direction.
I guess it’s true though that the nastiest fights are inside the family.
Who else knows us well enough to get under our skin like that.Peace,
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
Folks:
Just a reminder…the topic for this thread is:
Thanks for your help!
Just a reminder…the topic for this thread is:
Those who wish to discuss inculturation and any other topic should feel free to join a thread already in progress or initiate one on the subject of their choice in the appropriate forum.
Thanks for your help!
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love4mary
Guest
Neil Anthony, in response to your question as to whether my personal family holds hands and the answer is YES!,When we come together at the table for meals, whether at home or in a restaurant, we will hold hands and form a cirle around the table. It may be the Only time we do, but when we are giving thanks to God for our meal, we join as one.
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Mary_ann_R
Guest
I was surfing the internet and found a Q & A on EWTN’S website…interesting… :yup:
Just talking about it can even create division.
The Bishop in our diocese instructed us that we are not to hold hands during the Lord’s prayer…I choose to remain obedient; however, I always see members of the congegration holding hands. I often wonder if they are uniformed of the instruction given by the Bishop or if they choose to do it anyway.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=452644&Pg=Forum8&Pgnu=1&recnu=16
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THurifer2
Guest
Sorry but my Catholicity is ROMAN Catholic So I tend to lean with what rome says…When I mean Lean I mean like everything that comes out of ROME…All of this would be so unnecessary if the bishops, either on a national or international level, would just set the record straight – ke…)
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agangbern
Guest
I can’t imagine how anyone could be forced to hold hands.If you don’t feel comfortable with holding hands, then don’t be ashamed not to hold. But do it without arrogance.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Hi again,
It is best to try to let go of any resentment held for either side.
We are alll at Mass to praise and worship, and should not let someone else distract us. I generally will take an offered hand, or extend mine to a neighbor, but do not get offended at the response. I won’t twist or do acrobatics to hold hands a few pews away, and if I am tapped or poked, I just smile and say NO thanks.
Lux
It is best to try to let go of any resentment held for either side.
We are alll at Mass to praise and worship, and should not let someone else distract us. I generally will take an offered hand, or extend mine to a neighbor, but do not get offended at the response. I won’t twist or do acrobatics to hold hands a few pews away, and if I am tapped or poked, I just smile and say NO thanks.
Lux
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mdgspencer
Guest
The priest should have kept quiet and not become involved. This simply is a private practice generally, just like praying the rosary before mass or not, for example, when too the priest needn’t say anything. The Church has said nothing for this or against this.
It may though have to decide for it or against it if there is a more general disturbance over this during the mass, and there are problems already obviously from the original post and from other threads here.
It may though have to decide for it or against it if there is a more general disturbance over this during the mass, and there are problems already obviously from the original post and from other threads here.
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stjosephtomasi
Guest
while i agree with you completely, my feeling is that there will soon be handholding in all churches.
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stjosephtomasi
Guest
why in the world would the bishops not simply issue a statement saying “yes, it is ok” or “no, it is not ok”?
whether you agree with it or not, surely we can all agree it is divisive.
leaders (bishops) have an obligation to deal with issues like these that divide their flocks.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Yes & no. Since neither side is wrong, except if you try to force someone, the Bishops remain neutral. Just as they would not issue an instruction for or against the folded hands position.
Perhaps they could just say it is not up to the priest or laity to try to force either position, and certainly wrong to create division over it.
Lux
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