Should homosexual men be allowed to be priests?

[miguel]

Fitz:

I don’t think it would be fair to restrict them, however if they are openly living with a partner then they have to be stopped and asked to leave. Haven’t you ever guessed someone to be gay and they are not? I just don’t know if they would be open about it and what would a bishop be able to do? You can’t tell someone that you think they act gay. Some manerisms are not completely indicative.

The damage to the Church of not restricting them is clearly evident. What’s better, to bend over backward to cater to an individual with a mental health problem, or to worry more about potential victims of sexual abuse, the costs of litigation due to that abuse, and the damage to the reputation of the Church? How to identify it before ordination is obviously not a trivial task. But it is a task that must be done.

 

[miguel]

Is it just your opinion that “a lot more men than our macho society is willing to admit occasionally experience same-sex attraction”? Define “a lot”. If people don’t admit it, how can we know that it’s a lot?

 

[mercygate]

Whatever the ultimate “right” decision may be on this, a 10-year moratorium on ordaining homosexuals would help to stabilize the Church. The multiple-partner track record of homosexuals is a complicating factor we can no longer afford - at least for the time being.

Denying Holy Orders to men with SSA may be “hard” but it is not “harder” than what has been suffered by the hundreds who have been abused by dishonorable priests. Excluding men with SSA from priesthood is a reasonable response to the current situation.

That said, men with SSA who are currently ordained and committed to the honor of their vows are to be admired as are their heterosexual brothers.

 

[Fitz]

miguel:

The damage to the Church of not restricting them is clearly evident.

I am assuming the damage has been done by pedophillias and not homosexual men that we are paying the damages for. If it was an adult relationship, there would be no lawsuit, right? I am assuming that some priests have fathered children with consenting adult women, and that this may not have led to lawsuits either. Actually, I know very little about the scandals, so feel free to set me straight.

 

[mlchance]

Fitz:

I am assuming the damage has been done by pedophillias and not homosexual men that we are paying the damages for.

A sizeable percentage the sexual abuse crimes committed by clergy were adult male to adolescent male. From a legal stand point, they had more in common with statuatory rape (not that this observation in anyway diminshes the seriousness of the offenses). Now maybe I’m just old-fashioned, but an adult male having sex with a teenage boy qualifies as at least some shade of homosexual.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[patricius]

Our country’s laws dictate that even “adult relationships” can end in lawsuits. A 19-year-old man could commit statutory rape against a 17-year-old woman. By any reasonable definition such an act (if it were consensual) would be, physically at least, an “adult” act, not one of pedophilia.

I’m afraid that I was uncharitably vague in my last post. I don’t believe that most people who currently identify themselves as homosexuals need therapy. I believe they need to realize that having same-sex inclinations does not make you a homosexual. A homosexual would be somebody who can’t seem to resist or control a certain kind of unhealthy inclination, not for lack of trying but because he or she is mentally incapable of it. In other words-- having unchaste inclinations is a very common thing, and is not cause for psychological help. Being unable to separate one’s self-identity from them, however, could be a big problem. I believe that most people who currently identify as homosexuals do so not because they are unable to separate themselves from their inclinations, but because they don’t want to. The latter condition is usually the result of confusion or ignorance and not of mental problems. This type of man could, I think, make a very good priest, and should be helped to realize that in Christ, just as there is no slave or free, woman or man, there is no “straight” or “gay”-- only true love, as God planned it from the beginning.

 

[miguel]

Fitz:

I am assuming the damage has been done by pedophillias and not homosexual men that we are paying the damages for. If it was an adult relationship, there would be no lawsuit, right? I am assuming that some priests have fathered children with consenting adult women, and that this may not have led to lawsuits either. Actually, I know very little about the scandals, so feel free to set me straight.

The U.S. bishops’ National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People came out with its report earlier this year. This Wanderer editorial summarizes the statistics:

thewandererpress.com/b3-11-2004.htm

 

[miguel]

mlchance:

A sizeable percentage the sexual abuse crimes committed by clergy were adult male to adolescent male. From a legal stand point, they had more in common with statuatory rape (not that this observation in anyway diminshes the seriousness of the offenses). Now maybe I’m just old-fashioned, but an adult male having sex with a teenage boy qualifies as at least some shade of homosexual.

– Mark L. Chance.

You’re not old-fashioned…clear-thinking maybe!

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

All Catholics are expected to be chaste. Therefore, Catholics are not suppose to be engaged in any type of sexual activity: homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, etc.

Studies have shown that married people who engaged in sexual activity before marriage, have a much more difficult marriage. In other words sexual activity makes one unfit for marriage.

If sexual activity, makes one unfit for marriage, it also makes one unfit for priestly or religious life.

Married people are called to be chaste and faithful to their spouse.

Priests are called to be chaste and faithful to their vow of celebacy.

Catholics are not suppose to be sexually oriented. We are suppose to be Christ oriented.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where people prefer sex to everything else. People prefer sex to health, to marriage, to the lives of their children, to money, to the well being of their country, and of course to God Himself. So, naturally people ask the question, “What kind of sex do you prefer?” And then they argue about what kind of sex is the best or the worse.

The question on sexual orientation has an underlying assumption that everyone is either engaged in sex or would like to be engaged in sex under the right circumstances. It ignores the fact that some people have no desire to be engaged in sex at all.

Its like asking the question, “Do you prefer downhill skiing or cross country skiing or both?” And not even considering that many people have no desire to be skiing at all.

Are Catholics any different than anyone else? No. Catholics form their beliefs based on the values of society, not the teachings of the Catholic Church. (Catholics’ approval of birth control is just one example.) It makes an observer wonder. Which has more influence on Catholics, Society or the Grace of God?

Sociologists have observed the role of the Church in Society is to promote the values of Society. The evidence continues to prove that the sociologists are correct.

 

[lindalou725]

I am the mother of a young man who was abused by Dan Clark in Louisville, Ky. I didn’t call him “Father” because he was de-frocked last week along with Louis Miller.

My son was an alter boy who, along with a number of other young boys, was abused by this man. I forgave him when I learned what he had done to my son who is now in his mid 30’s. This is the only way I could find peace.

My son spent 3 weeks in a hospital psychiatric ward at the age of 13. He was depressed and suicidal. By that time, Fr. Clark’s abuse had been reported by a couple of other boys in our church. My son said he had not done anything to lhim.

We finally learned the truth a couple of years ago when the scandal broke in the national news. My son was one of those who recieved a settlement. The settlement improved the situation of he and his family, a wife and 3 children, but the wounds will always be there.

I will never forget the pain of hearing my son tell me (after running away from home for the third time and getting suspended from his Catholic school) that he wished he was dead. Thank God I got him help in time.

That is why I do NOT think homosexuals should be priests, or scout leaders or any type of leader who would have the opportunity to do to another child what was done to mine.

I don’t hate Dan Clark, I am praying for him and have been for the past 2 years. :nope:

 

[miguel]

Chris Jacobsen:

…Catholics are not suppose to be engaged in any type of sexual activity: homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, etc…

I’m married with 4 kids. That’s news to me.

 

[insideitall]

I voted not sure but I think I changed my mind to no… but in that case, no mental disorder should be allowed.

We had a pastor, for 12 years, who is bipolar. And refused to get therapy/meds. But he’s gone and our parish is starting to be not spiritually dead now.

What about people whose sexual orientation isn’t obvious? People can lie pretty well sometimes…

 

[miguel]

lindalou725:

I am the mother of a young man who was abused by Dan Clark in Louisville, Ky. I didn’t call him “Father” because he was de-frocked last week along with Louis Miller.

My son was an alter boy who, along with a number of other young boys, was abused by this man. I forgave him when I learned what he had done to my son who is now in his mid 30’s. This is the only way I could find peace.

My son spent 3 weeks in a hospital psychiatric ward at the age of 13. He was depressed and suicidal. By that time, Fr. Clark’s abuse had been reported by a couple of other boys in our church. My son said he had not done anything to lhim.

We finally learned the truth a couple of years ago when the scandal broke in the national news. My son was one of those who recieved a settlement. The settlement improved the situation of he and his family, a wife and 3 children, but the wounds will always be there.

I will never forget the pain of hearing my son tell me (after running away from home for the third time and getting suspended from his Catholic school) that he wished he was dead. Thank God I got him help in time.

That is why I do NOT think homosexuals should be priests, or scout leaders or any type of leader who would have the opportunity to do to another child what was done to mine.

I don’t hate Dan Clark, I am praying for him and have been for the past 2 years. :nope:

How awful for you and your son and all the other victims. This is the fruit of the shepherds not using common sense to guard the flock.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I leaned toward “no” because I recognize that it is possible for someone with SSA to live chastely and thus be faithful to his priestly vows (that is, on top of ths standard dictates of morality). Even though I appreciate the contributions of faithful priests with SSA, however, it does not seem at all prudent to admit to the sacrament of orders men with psychological instability. Whether or not SSA in itself is always a primarily psychological disorder, it pretty much always brings psychological baggage along with it. The less baggage, in my mind, the better.

 

[GWitherow]

I opened this forum because I think the Church has been fuzzy on this issue, even since the scandals broke out. The Church (at least in this country) has not come down definitively on the issue. (I voted No).

For those of you that voted “Yes”, should the priest be open with his parish that he’s a homosexual or should he remain in the closet? (I know some in this forum have protested against labels, but our society uses them).

Apparently, even the conservative Arlington Diocese (we only have altar boys!) is struggling with this issue. See the following Washington Times article.

washtimes.com/national/20041115-124042-2061r.htm

 

[Lisa_N]

Andreas Hofer:

I leaned toward “no” because I recognize that it is possible for someone with SSA to live chastely and thus be faithful to his priestly vows (that is, on top of ths standard dictates of morality). Even though I appreciate the contributions of faithful priests with SSA, however, it does not seem at all prudent to admit to the sacrament of orders men with psychological instability. Whether or not SSA in itself is always a primarily psychological disorder, it pretty much always brings psychological baggage along with it. The less baggage, in my mind, the better.

My sentiments exactly. The more I research, think about and consider homosexuality, the more I am convinced it is like addiction or compulsion of some kind. It is not normal behavior and as you said, homosexuality tends to bring along a variety of problems along with the abnormal sexual expression. While I am sure many homosexual priests are chaste, holy and performing all of their duties, there are enough homosexuals who stepped over the line to endanger the entire Church.

Someone previously pointed out that we act as if lust is something that we simply cannot overcome, as if people are no different than an animal in heat. If people can overcome addictions, compulsions and other mental disorders, they should also be able to overcome homosexual attractions. If you look at the animal kingdom there is literally no drive stronger than the drive to procreate. In some cases it overwhelms the natural desire to survive as more than one species risks death if it doesn’t actually die in the process. Yet we think it’s entirely possible for heterosexual males to be chaste when it’s a strong NATURAL drive but think homosexuals are incapable of overcoming their abnormal, nonprocreative desires. That makes no sense. But given the way homosexual activists are trying to normalize this behavior, trying to put it on par with normal male female relations, the harder it will be to face such a problem and find help to overcome it.

Lisa N

 

[Sandman]

The relationship of Christ to the Church is compared to a marraige. A marriage is the union between man and woman. The complete each other and the loving union between man woman and child is manifested in the birth of a child. Similarily the loving union between Father and Son is manifested in the Holy Spirit.

So how does this relate to homosexuality? The priest acts in Persona Christi, in the role of Jesus, to the Church. I think it is a challenge to understand the complete meaning of marriage (and therefore Church/Christ) from a homosexual perspective. The gift of self in marriage is between a man and woman. This analogy, although imperfect, should be reflected in a priest.

The Church is feminine and a priest relates to the church as a man relates to a woman resulting in fruitfulness to those he ministers to. This is one of the reasons we call a priest Father.

I question whether a homosexual man understands this in the core of his being (his soul). Lack of this understanding and longing may be part of the reason the Church calls homosexuality disordered.

Just my opinion.

 

[shannin]

eaManwe:

First, the Catholic definition of homosexuality is: “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.” It does not say that homosexuality is same sex intercourse or actiivity.
Second, the Catholic Church says that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered … Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
Source: “The Catechism of the Catholic Church.” Paragraph 2357-9 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM
Well, homosexuality is wrong in and of itself (i.e., just having the temptation, or having a tendancy to feel that way), then I am condemned. And seeing as how I have a tendency towards homosexuality, and my position is that chasity encompasses the whole person, not just the genitals, but the whole body, mind and soul. Even though it is quite difficult at times, chasity for an exclusively homosexual person means celibacy. That means no kissing, no indulging in impure thoughts or even overly romantic thoughts. The Catholic church advises homosexuals: “By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”
Those men who are at peace with themselves and God and have embrased Chasity and have united with Christ’s cross and are good men but happen to have a tendency towards homosexual temptation moreso than other sexual temptation should be given just as much consideration as a person who has a tendency towards heterosexual temptation. Temptation isn’t sinful; it’s how you deal with that temptation.

Dear Eemanwe,
You have my admiration and prayers. The fact that you do have same-sex attractions and have chosen to stay celebate gives you the opportunity to become a very holy human being.

May God grant you joy, peace and many blessings.


Shannin

 

[caroljm36]

Chris Jacobsen:

Unfortunately, we live in a society where people prefer sex to everything else. People prefer sex to health, to marriage, to the lives of their children, to money, to the well being of their country, and of course to God Himself. So, naturally people ask the question, “What kind of sex do you prefer?” And then they argue about what kind of sex is the best or the worse.

The whole society screams at you that sex SHOULD be your ultimate value, and it isn’t then you’re weird, sick, frigid whatever. People are taught that when they’re having a lot of sex, it means they’re really livin’, and if they’re not then the world is passing them by and they’re pathetic. It takes a good strong family life and faith to insulate kids from this indoctrination. So it’s no wonder that we have to define ourselves by our sexuality.

 

[Fitz]

lindalou725:

That is why I do NOT think homosexuals should be priests, or scout leaders or any type of leader who would have the opportunity to do to another child what was done to mine.

I don’t hate Dan Clark, I am praying for him and have been for the past 2 years. :nope:

You make the most compelling arugument of all. I am in awe of your forgiveness and your closeness to God. It is a relief to hear that your son married and has children and a regular life. I feared that many of the abused would miss out on some of the normal life. Is he able to forgive? Don’t answer this if you find it too personal. I think we should all be praying for those that have been abused by our clergy. How absolutely horrible for them to be betrayed by those we thought we could trust the most.