Should I strive to overcome homophobia?

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I suppose I am also not comfortable with co-habiting fornicators. I don’t ‘dislike’ them, but I don’t really approve- and being ‘accepting’ of them would seem to be approving. If I had to talk to co-habitors talking about their ‘partners’, I am very uncomfortable.

So, how does one show one doesn’t accept the valdity of someone’s lifestyle, without being uncharitable?
Just a heads up. Every friend you have (every friend) is a sinner and has plenty of sins they struggle with some they don’t struggle against, but give in to. So, if being a friend with a sinner is somehow “approving” of their lifestyle, then you won’t have any friends. You have to get use to being around sinners because everyone you are around is one. You have to realize that not everyone is a practicing Catholic/Christian and many won’t live like them. Maybe you need to actually try to see things from a different point of view. Maybe you need to remember that Jesus associated with prostitutes and tax collectors. We need to mimic Christ.

I used to be a little ethnocentric (thinking that the culture I came from was “superior” to other cultures). Mostly I felt this way my culture being superior to other cultures within the U.S. I have found that living in different places in the country and getting to know/love people from different parts of the country. I now have a really close friend from an area of the country who’s culture I have the hardest time with.

Maybe you should give people the benefit of the doubt, be kind to them, and take the time to get to know people from groups you have a hard time with. Your view of them may still be tainted at first, but if you start seeing them as real, unique individuals, then over time your views on them might change. People with SSA are children of God too. We deal with our own struggles, we pay our taxes, we work, we go to school, we go grocery shopping, we aren’t that different from you. Get to know us as individuals and don’t lump us up and you may find some bad apples, but you might find some of the most loving, loyal friends ever as well.
 
Just a heads up. Every friend you have (every friend) is a sinner and has plenty of sins they struggle with some they don’t struggle against, but give in to. So, if being a friend with a sinner is somehow “approving” of their lifestyle, then you won’t have any friends. You have to get use to being around sinners because everyone you are around is one. You have to realize that not everyone is a practicing Catholic/Christian and many won’t live like them. Maybe you need to actually try to see things from a different point of view. Maybe you need to remember that Jesus associated with prostitutes and tax collectors. We need to mimic Christ.

I used to be a little ethnocentric (thinking that the culture I came from was “superior” to other cultures). Mostly I felt this way my culture being superior to other cultures within the U.S. I have found that living in different places in the country and getting to know/love people from different parts of the country. I now have a really close friend from an area of the country who’s culture I have the hardest time with.

Maybe you should give people the benefit of the doubt, be kind to them, and take the time to get to know people from groups you have a hard time with. Your view of them may still be tainted at first, but if you start seeing them as real, unique individuals, then over time your views on them might change. People with SSA are children of God too. We deal with our own struggles, we pay our taxes, we work, we go to school, we go grocery shopping, we aren’t that different from you. Get to know us as individuals and don’t lump us up and you may find some bad apples, but you might find some of the most loving, loyal friends ever as well.
You also have to get used to the fact that YOU are a sinner and someone else is “accepting” your sinfulness to be friends with you. It’s not just all those non-Catholics out there. 😉
 
There is a difference between not showing approval and making it clear that you disapprove at every turn. Take for example my fiance’s mom. She does not approve of us living together. She made her feelings known to him once and has made it clear that we cannot share a bed under her roof. We know that she doesn’t approve. But for the sake of being charitable and maintaining a positive relationship with her son and soon-to-be daughter in law she has left it at that. Harping, badgering, and making it clear every time she sees us that we are committing a grave sin would not make us any more likely to stop living together, it would only get her cut out of our lives. Or at least have her contact with us greatly reduced.
This is actually a very telling analogy because it highlights your position quite nicely. What makes it a good analogy, however, is that it also reveals something about the “gay agenda.”

The reason your future mother-in-law remains charitable is precisely because her son and you have let her be and not tried to persuade her that she is “in the dark ages” morally. Now suppose, instead that you decided that you could not be happy living as you do on account of your future mother-in-law’s irrational and biased sentiment towards you and her son’s living arrangement. You then set it in your mind to ‘change her,’ at least so that she couldn’t prevent you from following her rules if you didn’t agree to them.

Your plan of action included parading with other cohabitating couples in front of her house, phoning other relatives to let them know about her bias, refusing to go into her home and deliberately undertaking a program of ‘education’ by teaching young relatives about the joys and benefits of cohabitation.

Furthermore, you view her attitude as nothing more than a cohabitophobia, so to rid her of any moral pretensions she may have, you decided that lobbying to change the state’s understanding of legal “marriage” to include cohabitation by definition was necessary.

My point here is that the gay agenda presumes some kind of moral pretension to having the “correct” view precisely because they are trying so hard to foist it on anyone who disagrees. There is an assumption that anyone who does not see it their way must be morally deficient and must be taught that by being “forced” to agree under the law.

This is the position that raises my dander because I do not agree that engaging in same sex behavior is a morally justifiable position just as prostitution or adultery are not morally justifiable. My concern is against those who are attempting to promote it as such.

If same sex attracted individuals were content with viewing it as a condition with which they have to deal, just as we all have difficulties with immoral or illicit tendencies that would be fine and I would feel very empathetic towards them because I know what a condition like that is like to deal with and battle against.

The problem is when same sex attracted individuals attempt to promote a certain lifestyle or behavior as morally laudable and do things to try to convince others of that fact, then they have surpassed moral bounds. They are promoting a behavior that is not a morally licit one as if it were.

To return to your analogy, that would be like, not your future mother-in-law abiding by certain bounds, but you attempting to change her deeply held moral beliefs by holding her head, literally, to the fire until she “came around.” The fact that you would try to “change her” would require two presuppositions on your part: 1) her moral beliefs are simply wrong and yours are superior, and 2) her moral beliefs are so odious that you have a moral duty to “straighten her out” by getting her to change her mind.

My question to you is, why are you respecting her beliefs when they are in contrast to yours?

I have some possible reasons and I put these forth only as possibilities. You, I am sure, being the thoughtful person you are, may have others. Most people do have a multiplicity of reasons for holding any position. In any case, these are a few:
  1. You believe moral perspectives are part of who someone is and these should be respected even when different from yours.
  2. Moral beliefs are of no real consequence and therefore ought not become a basis of contention in an otherwise good personal relationship.
  3. The ultimate morally defensible position is 'live and let live."
  4. It’s just not worth it so why try.
Ultimately, what it comes down to in the “gay rights” agenda is the promotion of a moral position, one that is being pushed until it is accepted by all. Proponents will not be satisfied until anyone holding an opposing view has relented their view and the telling sign, the indicator, will be when moral “sensibilities” such as aversion and disgust about same sex behavior has been neutralized. This isn’t about accepting same sex attracted persons as persons, it is very much about accepting a behavior as a morally acceptable one.

In your analogy, the gay rights “agenda” is like you and your future spouse hammering on your future mother-in-law and not relenting until she has accepted cohabitation as being no different, morally speaking, from marriage, not merely because you believe it to be, but because you believe everyone, including your future mother-in-law must agree with you to hold enlightened moral values. Your motive for changing her would have to be that you are disgusted by her bias against cohabitation. Why do you not have these feelings about your future mother-in-law’s attitude?

Continued…
 
… From previous

Gay rights advocates are attempting to change attitudes precisely because they are disgusted and repulsed by anyone who does not see it their way. They “project” this disgust on others as homophobia. In reality, they cannot see the possibility of a rational moral position on this because they have such an emotionally vested interest in the moral consequences of holding any POV on same sex behavior. An unbiased one is not even on the radar as far as they are concerned because they cannot entertain that possibility.

This is why the term “homophobia” is a red herring. It attempts to deflect rational discussion from what is really on the line by portraying the opposing point of view as an irrational and phobic one. It simply isn’t and I will happily and congenially discuss this with anyone with the determination to do so.

Some on this thread have chosen to cease discussion when they did not like the turn it was taking, but that is because they knew they could no longer defend their position with reason but had to resort to emotional appeal.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the implications regarding your future mother-in-law analogy.
 
Peter, why don’t you start a new thread because you are going way off topic. I understand what you are saying, but what you say has little to do with if the op should be hateful/judgmental towards a whole group of people solely due to their attractions and should have nothing to do with them because they are sinful. You and Ed are way off topic and these belong in a separate thread, not this one. The thread is not about the media, gay marriage, politics, gay agenda, or any of that. It is about whether it is wrong or not to hate all gay people and have nothing to do with them.

Maybe the op doesn’t have homophobia, but they sure do have prejudice against homosexuals, which is a problem.
 
I suppose I am also not comfortable with co-habiting fornicators. I don’t ‘dislike’ them, but I don’t really approve- and being ‘accepting’ of them would seem to be approving. If I had to talk to co-habitors talking about their ‘partners’, I am very uncomfortable.

So, how does one show one doesn’t accept the valdity of someone’s lifestyle, without being uncharitable?
Are you disgusted by kleptomaniacs? It is entirely consistent to believe an action is wrong morally and yet see it, perhaps, as a regrettable aspect of the person. Being charitable to the person, does not mean approval of their behavior. The existence of kleptomaniacs does not render thievery morally right just because some individuals do have an inclination to engage in it. One can be morally averse to stealing, but still accept kleptomania as part of the human condition. That, however, does not mean it should be legitimized by making theft legal.
 
There are no more pedophiles. They are calling themselves “minor-attracted persons” now. They are hoping they can have some (name removed by moderator)ut in the 2013 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual and get APA approval that their behavior is normative.

Peace,
Ed
Medicine tries to remove moral judgements from diagnostic criteria, preferring to use standards such as impairment, incapacity, pain, suffering, etc…

Is that what you mean by viewing the behavior of a pedophile as “normative”?
 
Peter, why don’t you start a new thread because you are going way off topic. I understand what you are saying, but what you say has little to do with if the op should be hateful/judgmental towards a whole group of people solely due to their attractions and should have nothing to do with them because they are sinful. You and Ed are way off topic and these belong in a separate thread, not this one. The thread is not about the media, gay marriage, politics, gay agenda, or any of that. It is about whether it is wrong or not to hate all gay people and have nothing to do with them.

Maybe the op doesn’t have homophobia, but they sure do have prejudice against homosexuals, which is a problem.
How is post 105 off topic?

The answer is you should only strive to overcome something that “should” be overcome. It is not clear that having an aversion to something is the same as having a phobia about it. I have an aversion to having my head bitten off by a lion. It is a legitimate aversion, but it is not a phobia because I am not stressing about it needlessly.

Why should he strive to overcome homophobia if what he has is a legitimate moral aversion to something morally adverse and not, in fact, a phobia?

My points are very much on topic. You may not agree with them.

Are you justified in calling me homophobic when I can be completely rational in presenting a case that calling someone homophobic is a misdiagnosis and that a misapplication of the term is, in fact, the cause of his dilemma?

This is all very germane to his question.
 
How is post 105 off topic?

The answer is you should only strive to overcome something that “should” be overcome. It is not clear that having an aversion to something is the same as having a phobia about it. I have an aversion to having my head bitten off by a lion. It is a legitimate aversion, but it is not a phobia because I am not stressing about it needlessly.

Why should he strive to overcome homophobia if what he has is a legitimate moral aversion to something morally adverse and not, in fact, a phobia?

My points are very much on topic. You may not agree with them.

Are you justified in calling me homophobic when I can be completely rational in presenting a case that calling someone homophobic is a misdiagnosis and that a misapplication of the term is, in fact, the cause of his dilemma?

This is all very germane to his question.
You post had little to do with the subject. It was mostly about homosexual activism which, many homosexuals do not participate in. Even if most did it still isn’t right to lump all homosexuals together or make it right to hate the sinner instead of the sin. Remember Jesus loved the Prostitute. This is about whether you should judge a people as a group or individually (because each individual is different). I don’t see how you could possibly think your post was on topic. Your post had nothing to do with whether we should hate a group of people solely because of their attractions instead of judging them individually.

They have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do. They prejudge someone and hate them without knowing them. We should not hate people, but we are free to hate sinful actions.

I did not call you or anyone else for that matter homophobic. So don’t say I did. You were off topic and I think anyone reading what you wrote can see that. You choose not to see it and accuse me of opposing your position when you have NO idea what my position is on what you said. Stop projecting certain perceptions on me and saying I am making points I clearly did not.
 
Yes, it would be good to strive to overcome an automatic feeling of dislike for a group or type of people.
You probably feel this way because they seem so different from or foreign to you because you don’t have any personal experience with having a friend, family member, or co-worker (that you know of) who is gay.
Or, not to jar you, but sometimes people feel an extreme natural dislike of people who they feel they are secretly similar to.
So you might be feeling same sex attraction yourself?

Either way, it doesn’t seem too healthy for yourself to dislike a group of people in this way.

You would not think it very healthy or just if a person told you they had a natural dislike for anyone who is Catholic, would you?

/
Oh brother. We have feelings towards people. That guy standing in the shadows, dressed like a local gang member, will cause negative feelings in most people. I do not walk by the doors of biker clubs or strip clubs (falsely called gentlemen’s clubs - as in ‘we run a classy joint here’). Do I hate the people inside? Of course not. But seeing the name of a notorious biker gang on a building does put me off.

Very healthy? In what way? People naturally avoid others that give them cause to feel physically threatened, or emotionally vulnerable. I had a prostitute walk up to me and ask me if I wanted to go on a “date.” I had never seen this woman before, and I personally know someone who was solicited and got arrested because the woman was actually a cop.

I’ve worked with gay people, but the point here is: in your face gay sex acceptance is not normative. The gay and bisexual people I worked with were fine to work with but their sexual activities were never brought up, and neither did I mention anything about myself. We just worked together and that was it.

Homophobia does not exist. It is a fake word designed to create a false impression about any who oppose the in your face, gay sex as marriage agenda.

The very odd idea that anyone dislikes gay people because they have SSA themselves is absurd. I have seen a few strikingly handsome men, but I don’t have SSA. My only thought was, “Wow. I’d like to look like that guy.” even though I’ve been told by a few women that I’m nice looking.

And there are people who do have a natural dislike for Catholics and all religious people. Among the reasons are: (A) You don’t think for yourself - your Pope, Bible or other holy book prevents that, so it’s bad/wrong. (B) Logic and science should be your guides, not some men who dress funny. (C) Your attitudes toward sex are are all wrong. Here we are having a great time and you call it 'being slaves to our flesh." (D) Nobody can tell me what to do! Especially your God/gods, holy book or whatever other fairy tales you happen to believe. (E) - the real kicker - Face it, people don’t need god to be good. I’m a good person and I don’t need an invisible friend to enjoy life. And don’t give me that c*** that we get judged after we die or that there’s a devil or hell. (F) We are better than you because we’re not tied down by your Medieval ideas about reality. It’s the 21st Century!

Finally, I’ve been involved in a few sub-cultures. Those people had their own style of dress, manner of speaking, ritual behaviors and ceremony, and worldview. In one case, I felt like an anthropologist who was allowed to visit a hidden world. In my case, I became friends with one of the tribal leaders and though I "dressed funny,’ the tribe accepted me. One night, an “outsider” couple appeared at the door of their private enclave. One of the tribe girls sitting next to me alerted the girl next to her: “Look!” To which she replied, “Oh my God. Tourists! It’s like somebody walking into your bedroom.” The tribal defense mechanism kicked in automatically, since “tourists” were not educated as to the tribal customs and were not members of the tribe.

In another case, I observed the same dress requirements, tribal language patterns and ritual behavior. Their worldview was a philosophy they lived and the words and phrases were comprehensible but made little sense to me. Since I was an ‘outsider,’ I felt like I was an observer and less like a participant. I was allowed to attend one of their gatherings because I had asked one of the tribe members for permission.

I view gay culture in the same light. And not being gay would be a rather large issue as far as being part of the tribe and understanding their way of life. To be clear - I have no problem working with gay people.

Peace,
Ed
 
You post had little to do with the subject. It was mostly about homosexual activism which, many homosexuals do not participate in. Even if most did** it still isn’t right to lump all homosexuals together** or make it right to hate the sinner instead of the sin. Remember Jesus loved the Prostitute. This is about whether you should judge a people as a group or individually (because each individual is different). I don’t see how you could possibly think your post was on topic. Your post had nothing to do with whether we should hate a group of people solely because of their attractions instead of judging them individually.

They another group? ] have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do. They prejudge someone and hate them without knowing them. We should not hate people, but we are free to hate sinful actions.

I did not call you or anyone else for that matter homophobic. So don’t say I did. You were off topic and I think anyone reading what you wrote can see that. You choose not to see it and accuse me of opposing your position when you have NO idea what my position is on what you said. Stop projecting certain perceptions on me and saying I am making points I clearly did not.
Let me point out an inconsistency in your post that goes to the heart of this issue.

You say my post, “… had nothing to do with whether we should hate a group of people solely because of their attractions instead of judging them individually.”

Then you take to task another group who you say, “… have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do…”

The reason this is inconsistent on your part is because, as you pointed out, “This is about whether you should judge a people as a group or individually…”

**Why, then, are you judging the apparent bias of one “group” as having more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts when you say we should not judge any people “as a group?” **

The point being, why are you contradicting your own advice by seeing everyone with a moral aversion as belonging to a particular group? Should this group also not be deconstructed and assessed individually?

This is precisely the problem because having a moral aversion to same sex behavior is, according to the “group” theory an automatic reason for placing someone in the homophobia group.

Your reasoning is correct, but it cuts both ways, which you neglected to show with consistency.
 
Let me point out an inconsistency in your post that goes to the heart of this issue.

You say my post, “… had nothing to do with whether we should hate a group of people solely because of their attractions instead of judging them individually.”

Then you take to task another group who you say, “… have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do…”

The reason this is inconsistent on your part is because, as you pointed out, “This is about whether you should judge a people as a group or individually…”

Why, then, are you judging the apparent bias of one “group” as having more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts when you say we should not judge any people “as a group?”

The point being, why are you contradicting your own advice by seeing everyone with a moral aversion as belonging to a particular group? Should this group also not be deconstructed and assessed individually?

This is precisely the problem because having a moral aversion to same sex behavior is, according to the “group” theory an automatic reason for placing someone in the homophobia group.

Your reasoning is correct, but it cuts both ways, which you neglected to show with consistency.
lol. I am judging the Op by things they have said. When I said they, I was referring to the Op. They can refer to an individual. I thought that was really clear. I was saying what the Op was doing and WAS NOT judging a group. I was judging the OP individually as a person. So I am in no way being inconsistent. Plus not all homosexuals or bisexuals see those who do not approve of homosexual acts as homophobic. That isn’t true. I have had plenty of LGBT friends in my life where that was not the case. I am a bisexual who doesn’t see people as biphobic or homophobic because they don’t approve of homosexual activities. In fact I choose not to partake in homosexual activities because I believe they are wrong.
 
lol. I am judging the Op by things they have said. When I said they, I was referring to the Op. They can refer to an individual. I thought that was really clear. I was saying what the Op was doing and WAS NOT judging a group. I was judging the OP individually as a person. So I am in no way being inconsistent.
I respectfully disagree with the adequacy of your defense because what you specifically said was,

“They have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do. They prejudge someone and hate them without knowing them.”

How do you know this is all true about the OP without reference to the fictional group, which you call, “they,” to whom you feel the OP belongs? Obviously you were making categorical determinations about the group and then applying those to the OP based upon your understanding of the “group.” How do you know that the OP’s motives for his aversion were prejudiced or irrational and not based upon sound and legitimate moral thinking without knowing him personally and getting to know the real grounds for his aversion?
 
I respectfully disagree with the adequacy of your defense because what you specifically said was,

“They have more than a moral aversion to homosexual acts, they dislike (maybe even hate) all homosexuals despite what they do. They prejudge someone and hate them without knowing them.”

How do you know this is all true about the OP without reference to the fictional group, which you call, “they,” to whom you feel the OP belongs? Obviously you were making categorical determinations about the group and then applying those to the OP based upon your understanding of the “group.” How do you know that the OP’s motives for his aversion were prejudiced or irrational and not based upon sound and legitimate moral thinking without knowing him personally and getting to know the real grounds for his aversion?
I refer to the op as they because I don’t know if they are a he or she. I am NOT saying they are part of a group. I am only talking of the OP despite what you think. I do not appreciate the fact you are saying I am lying about only referring to the OP. I am fine with having a moral aversion to action as I have said before, just not a moral aversion to people. We have to separate the sin from the sinner. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Stop saying I said things I clearly did not. It is wrong to hate a group of people and lump them all together, hating every individual in that group despite what they do. I stand beside that statement. I am a Catholic woman and love is paramount in my faith. As scripture says, without love you have nothing.

Go ahead and have the last word, put all the words you want in my mouth that you want, because I am done arguing with a person who does those things and then pretty much says I am a hypocrite and lier.
.
 
This is a thread that the OP started go get perspectives on his/her attitude towards homosexuals. If you are not going to respond to that, only go on and on about some sort of insidious “gay agenda” then you should probably start another thread. There are a lot of posts here that do not address the original issue and that is unfair to the OP and to the people who have charitably responded to the OP and are having their posts used in some sort of weird, twisted argument.
 
We have the opportunity to help the OP to overcome an aversion to a particular group and to grow closer to his fellow humans. I think that we should help the OP in this process. Ed and others seem to want to derail it. Like another person said, just start a new thread. This thread in particular is to help someone to overcome a prejudice.
 
This is a thread that the OP started go get perspectives on his/her attitude towards homosexuals. If you are not going to respond to that, only go on and on about some sort of insidious “gay agenda” then you should probably start another thread. There are a lot of posts here that do not address the original issue and that is unfair to the OP and to the people who have charitably responded to the OP and are having their posts used in some sort of weird, twisted argument.
Haha, I just said the same thing right beneath your post.😊
 
This is a thread that the OP started go get perspectives on his/her attitude towards homosexuals. If you are not going to respond to that, only go on and on about some sort of insidious “gay agenda” then you should probably start another thread. There are a lot of posts here that do not address the original issue and that is unfair to the OP and to the people who have charitably responded to the OP and are having their posts used in some sort of weird, twisted argument.
We have the opportunity to help the OP to overcome an aversion to a particular group and to grow closer to his fellow humans. I think that we should help the OP in this process. Ed and others seem to want to derail it. Like another person said, just start a new thread. This thread in particular is to help someone to overcome a prejudice.
👍
 
How is post 105 off topic?

The answer is you should only strive to overcome something that “should” be overcome. It is not clear that having an aversion to something is the same as having a phobia about it. I have an aversion to having my head bitten off by a lion. It is a legitimate aversion, but it is not a phobia because I am not stressing about it needlessly.

Why should he strive to overcome homophobia if what he has is a legitimate moral aversion to something morally adverse and not, in fact, a phobia?

My points are very much on topic. You may not agree with them.

Are you justified in calling me homophobic when I can be completely rational in presenting a case that calling someone homophobic is a misdiagnosis and that a misapplication of the term is, in fact, the cause of his dilemma?

This is all very germane to his question.
You cut through the propaganda with surgical precision. You will have no takers.
 
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