Should liberals leave the catholic church?

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JSmitty2005:
what’s up with the quotes? are you even Catholic? :confused:
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I used them to indicate that I was referring to the legalistic, monolithic entity that some people think of as the Catholic Church as opposed to the personal church we each worship and live in.

THE church is a group of people I know who meet in common to worship and learn about God from a priest or other leader - it is a personal thing as opposed to a giant controlling machine.

And yes, my past is about as catholic as it gets - I have 12 years of catholic schooling which occured during the hell-fire and guilt ridden 50’s and 60’s. I have very close relatives and friends who are or have been (may they rest in peace) catholic theologians, scripture scholars, pastors, authors, seminary professors, and bishops.

And to answer the question “Why do we stay?” one more time, I can only say one more time:

*What’s there not to understand? If there is no alternative which is anywhere near as good as the Catholic Church, why leave? Yes, I disagree with some things for what I see as very good reason but it’s still the best there is. *

*I disagree with my parents on many things but I still know where home is and I know I am still loved and accepted there. Why not here? Is the quality of “God the Father” somehow less than my human father? *

If I am wrong and it makes you look bad, then maybe that is just God giving you a little more of a challenge than usual.
 
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patg:
I used them to indicate that I was referring to the legalistic, monolithic entity that some people think of as the Catholic Church as opposed to the personal church we each worship and live in.

THE church is a group of people I know who meet in common to worship and learn about God from a priest or other leader - it is a personal thing as opposed to a giant controlling machine.
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The things that you say never cease to amaze me.
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patg:
And yes, my past is about as catholic as it gets - I have 12 years of catholic schooling which occured during the hell-fire and guilt ridden 50’s and 60’s. I have very close relatives and friends who are or have been (may they rest in peace) catholic theologians, scripture scholars, pastors, authors, seminary professors, and bishops.
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If I may ask, would you mind naming a few of the “catholic theologians, scripture scholars, pastors, authors, seminary professors, and bishops” that you have been so close to? :hmmm:
 
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patg:
People who only see black and white have always fascinated me. I’m not being critical - they are welcome to their beliefs and we would probably all be great friends and quite hospitable in person.
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I find those who use the black and white metaphor interesting. Is the implication that those who do not see black and white only see gray? Imagine if all one could appreciate was gray? Wouldn’t that be blindness? After all sight depends on contrast. Certainly, the gray-sighted live in a murky world of shadows and uncertainty. Ultimately, those with poor sight must rely on the lower senses.

To carry this metaphor a bit too far, it does seem that those whose moral vision is restricted to gray live in a similar murky moral world. I imagine those with such a murky moral vision must also rely on more visceral senses for judgments.

Hey, this isn’t a critique. I would still be happy to share a beer and root for over favorite teams in march Madness.
 
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patg:
And yes, my past is about as catholic as it gets - I have 12 years of catholic schooling which occured during the hell-fire and guilt ridden 50’s and 60’s. I have very close relatives and friends who are or have been (may they rest in peace) catholic theologians, scripture scholars, pastors, authors, seminary professors, and bishops.
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Oh, that’s what makes someone Catholic! They forgot to teach me that part, when I was confirmed. :rolleyes:
 
Gabriel Gale:
I find those who use the black and white metaphor interesting. Is the implication that those who do not see black and white only see gray? Imagine if all one could appreciate was gray? Wouldn’t that be blindness? After all sight depends on contrast. Certainly, the gray-sighted live in a murky world of shadows and uncertainty. Ultimately, those with poor sight must rely on the lower senses.

To carry this metaphor a bit too far, it does seem that those whose moral vision is restricted to gray live in a similar murky moral world. I imagine those with such a murky moral vision must also rely on more visceral senses for judgments.

Hey, this isn’t a critique. I would still be happy to share a beer and root for over favorite teams in march Madness.
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This is the old either/or argument again. We all know that most people see things in black, white, and shades of gray.
 
Penny Plain:
This is getting boring. Let’s change the topic slightly and possibly learn something interesting.

It’s clear that some posters want “liberals” (however defined) to leave the Catholic Church. What I’d like to know from those posters (without comment regarding the integrity, character, intelligence, or moral character of said “liberals,” if possible) is the following:

Why do you want us to leave?
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The question should be, “Why have you left?”

Reading your posts, no fair person could conclude that you accept the core beliefs of the Catholic Church.
 
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geezerbob:
This is the old either/or argument again. We all know that most people see things in black, white, and shades of gray.
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And a lucky few even dream in brilliant color. 😃
 
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geezerbob:
This is the old either/or argument again. We all know that most people see things in black, white, and shades of gray.
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Agree! Agree! One must be able to see black and white even to notice the gray.

Either/or argument is not a fallacy unless the categories aren’t complete and mutually exclusive. Of course, that why this black/white metaphor is a useless slogan. You never know what someone means. I guess it comes down to this:

Either a person believes in some moral absolutes (black, white and gray) or no moral absolutes (only gray).

I don’t think that anyone believes that every ethical/moral position is an absolute ( a common straw man, sometimes it’s ok to speed or run a red light) but I do often hear others proclaim that there are no moral absolutes.
 
Our problem is not that there are people who see shades of gray, but that there are people who only see shades of gray and deny that there are some things that are right (or wrong) under all circumstances. To such people, there is no solid moral foundation, only a shifting, soupy ground underfoot.
 
vern humphrey:
Our problem is not that there are people who see shades of gray, but that there are people who only see shades of gray and deny that there are some things that are right (or wrong) under all circumstances. To such people, there is no solid moral foundation, only a shifting, soupy ground underfoot.
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Or is it that you just don’t like the things some people chose to color as grey?
 
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frommi:
Or is it that you just don’t like the things some people chose to color as grey?
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What do you mean by that?

The Church is pretty clear on what is debatable and what is not. Do you have a quarrel with what the Church teaches?
 
vern humphrey:
Our problem is not that there are people who see shades of gray, but that there are people who only see shades of gray and deny that there are some things that are right (or wrong) under all circumstances. To such people, there is no solid moral foundation, only a shifting, soupy ground underfoot.
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Name one.

Personally, I’ve never encountered anyone who doesn’t hold to at least some moral absolutes… and I haven’t exactly led a sheltered existence.

Well, admittedly, I’ve never encountered any members of the Flat Earth Society. We may have one or two here though. 😉
 
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patg:
I’m not concerned about the label, I’m concerned about what is best for the church and its members. If that is being heretical, then that’s fine with me.
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Which “church” are you looking out for? The one in Rome or the one that you are the appointed head?
I’ll take the one who sent him over the messenger every time.
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You completely miss the point of the analogy.

Where in Scripture did Jesus Christ give you the authority to decide what should be done in the Church? When did Jesus Christ talk to you and give you the authority to decide what should be in the Bible and what shouldn’t be in the Bible?

I guess what I’m asking is, where on earth do you get *your *authority? The Church get’s its authority from Christ.
 
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patg:
I used them to indicate that I was referring to the legalistic, monolithic entity that some people think of as the Catholic Church as opposed to the personal church we each worship and live in.
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Where is the “personal church we worship and live in” in the Bible? When did Jesus preach about this?
THE church is a group of people I know who meet in common to worship and learn about God from a priest or other leader - it is a personal thing as opposed to a giant controlling machine
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.

Where is that in Scripture?
And yes, my past is about as catholic as it gets - I have 12 years of catholic schooling which occured during the hell-fire and guilt ridden 50’s and 60’s. I have very close relatives and friends who are or have been (may they rest in peace) catholic theologians, scripture scholars, pastors, authors, seminary professors, and bishops.
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Martin Luther’s past was about as Catholic as it gets.
And to answer the question “Why do we stay?” one more time, I can only say one more time:

*I disagree with my parents on many things but I still know where home is and I know I am still loved and accepted there. Why not here? Is the quality of “God the Father” somehow less than my human father? *
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The question isn’t “why do you stay” as much as it is “why have you established your own, personal version of a church and claimed it to be Catholic?”
 
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mikew262:
Give it up patg, there is no wiggle room here among most of these posters.
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There’s always wiggle room in Jacob’s ladder, but I wouldn’t want to be caught falling through it…
 
patg said:
I disagree with my parents on many things but I still know where home is and I know I am still loved and accepted there. Why not here? Is the quality of “God the Father” somehow less than my human father?
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This isn’t about “feeling at home” or being loved by God, its about people usurping the power of God and claiming to be head of household over Him. The Father has appointed someone to lead and guide His people and liberals reject this decision. Such rejection is not rejection of the appointed, but of the decision and authority of the Father Himself. Such an attitude didn’t work very well for Satan and I don’t advise it for anyone else.

I have yet to hear a liberal Catholic tell me where they get their authority from. It certainly wasn’t given to them by God or Scripture.

By the way, theologically speaking, God technically loves the devil - for if God ceased to love a thing it would cease to exist - but that doesn’t mean he’s not in hell.
 
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