Should liberals leave the catholic church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mijoy2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
vern humphrey:
It is indeed heresy, as you define it. But we’re better off praying for them than calling them names.
Click to expand...
That’s how the Church defines heresy. I took it straight from the Catechism. Isn’t someone that engages in heresy a heretic? :confused: Also, it’s not name calling. I’m only calling a spade a spade. “Heretic” was never a dirty word in the Church (you can even see it in Titus 3:10-11). I don’t see why it has become one now. I guess political correctness has just gone too far.
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
That’s how the Church defines it. I took it straight from the Catechism. :confused: Also, it’s not name calling. I’m only calling a spade a spade. “Heretic” was never a dirty word. I don’t see why it has become one. I guess political correctness has just gone too far.
Click to expand...
I know – it was the “liberal-heretic” connection.

And yes, there is value in calling a spade a spade. But until they are formally proclaimed heretics, I prefer to see if prayer will pursuade them.
 
vern humphrey:
I know – it was the “liberal-heretic” connection.
Click to expand...
The connection was conditional. I said, “IF liberalism = denial…”
And yes, there is value in calling a spade a spade. But until they are formally proclaimed heretics, I prefer to see if prayer will pursuade them.
Click to expand...
Yup. :yup:
 
40.png
JSmitty2005:
The connection was conditional. I said, “IF liberalism = denial…”
Click to expand...
And, while I don’t know if it’s proper to call it “liberalism,” we have seen some outright rejection of the basic teachings of the Church right here.
 
vern humphrey:
And, while I don’t know if it’s proper to call it “liberalism,” we have seen some outright rejection of the basic teachings of the Church right here.
Click to expand...
Huh? :confused:
 
vern humphrey:
It seems like we have closure.

Yes, the Church is an all or nothing proposition. Christ established it for our guidance and salvation. We, as individuals have no authority to reject any part of it.

Those who cannot accept the Magisterium, who cannot give the assent of faith, should pray for the grace and enlightenment to accept the teachings of the Church. And the rest of us should pray for them.
Click to expand...
Congratulations on having life figured out in such a dualistic manner. It must be easy living like that.
 
40.png
frommi:
Congratulations on having life figured out in such a dualistic manner. It must be easy living like that.
Click to expand...
It’s common sense that the Church is all or nothing. If you reject one Catholic belief then you necessarily reject the authority upon which it is based…duh!
 
Dear Reader:

I was never before informed that Thomas Paine was a “relativist” as some say, I see no real problem with relativism–when used in reference to what it is relative: no bowl is absolutely small; no bowl is absolutely large–a bowl may not only be either one, or the other, but also both at the same time, when placed against varying sizes of bowls; though, only in reference to one bowl, against another bowl–just so long as their is a contrast: what can be relative, when objects are comparable?

In any case, I see nothing wrong with the quote by Thomas Paine; there is nothing in it from my view to say, one must tolerate all opinions–the opinion of a Catholic priest to molest young boys in a congregation need not be tolerated by anyone, but the opinion should nonetheless be heard by those appropriate authorities required to bring judgement against those guilty of such immorality, of such criminality.

Many schismatics are Catholics, and the point is to welcome their return.

Should liberals leave the Church? No: conservatives should work harder to counsel liberals–there should be no reason for anyone to leave the Church.

A Catholic must accept all within the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be infallible.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher
 
Well I agree. If they are not going to accept what the Church teaches then they don’t belong in the Church. A little yeast spoils the whole batch.
 
40.png
Holly3278:
Well I agree. If they are not going to accept what the Church teaches then they don’t belong in the Church. A little yeast spoils the whole batch.
Click to expand...
First of all, Christ promised us that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. I’m really not worried about a little yeast if Satan and all his slimy minions don’t stand a chance.

Second,
  1. I believe that all people are called to know, love and serve God and that the Holy Spirit is intimately involved in the conversion of hearts to turn to God.
  2. I believe that sin is a distraction from knowing, loving and serving God.
  3. I believe that all of us are sinners.
  4. I believe that sin are acts or thoughts that separate us from God.
  5. I believe that the Catholic Church contains the Fullness of Truth and has the graces that open us better to know, love and serve God.
  6. I believe that those who consciously, with full knowledge and with full consent, reject the teachings of the Church have at least temporarily separated themself from God.
  7. I believe that all of us are to be instruments to aid and abet the efforts of the Holy Spirit described in #1 above in our life and the lives of others so that the effects of #6 can be overcome.
  8. I believe that points 1-7 above are all consistent with the Teachings of the Church.
For the above reasons:
  1. I take seriously the lessons of Christ left the flock to pursue a single lost sheep.
  2. I appreciate how people and the Church stuck with me when I had my period of “infidelity”.
  3. I’m called to find the Christ in everyone as I try to show them the Christ in me.
  4. I’m not God and am incapable of judging the hearts of others so I don’t know what underlying sin, misunderstandings, and confusion is causing another to be separated from God.
Thus, I consider it my mission to do all I can to bring people into or back to the Church. Especially in light of #1, #3 and #5 at the top, I believe our efforts should be concentrated on evangalizing people, especially the fallen Catholics where the consequences to their rejecting the Church is potentially more grave (this too is the Church’s teaching) rather than pushing them away.

Of course, if you feel that pushing them away is God’s desire or telling them to leave before the Holy Spirit has had time to work His “magic” , . . . . well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

P.S. I find it ironic that one of the reasons the Church opposes the death penalty is that it allows the person to repent and turn to God but so many won’t give a fallen away Catholic otherwise living a pretty moral life time to reconcile all their differences with God.
 
I just found this quote on another thread and thought of this thread. I’m not saying that liberals are “bad” people (I don’t label people like that), but according to St. Augustine people who call the good evil and evil good have been in the Church and will remain until the end.
40.png
copland:
As for Jacob and Esau, I like what St. Augustine said about them and who they represent. “God does not make His people of Esau, but makes it of Jacob. The seed is one, those conceived are dissimilar: the womb is one, those born of it are diverse. Was not the free woman that bare Jacob, the same free woman that bare Esau? They strove in the mother’s womb; and when they strove there, it was said to Rebecca,” Two peoples are in thy womb." Two men, two peoples; a good people, and a bad people: but yet they strive m one womb. How many evil men there are in the Church! And one womb carries them until they are separated in the end: and the good cry out against the evil, and the evil in turn cry out against the good, and both strive together in the bowels of one mother. Will they be always together? There is a going forth to the light in the end; the birth which is here figured in a mystery is declared; and it will then appear that “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” St. Augustine On the Gospel of John Tractate 11]
Click to expand...
 
We should not ask if they should leave the Church, but rather ask how they can stay. We must pray they be granted the grace to accept the Magisterium.
 
Wow. I really like this forum, but this thread seems to bring out the worst in people. I personally do not want “liberal” Catholics to leave the Church. Why not? Because I was once one of them. Ignorantly spouting my own opinions about contraception, abortion, missing mass, etc, etc. And I still called myself Catholic and (I’m now ashamed to say) even received Holy Communion. I was truly a “cafeteria Catholic”. But God never gave up on me. The Holy Spirit continued to work on me and I finally saw the light. That can and will happen to others as well. And thankfully God offers his mercy and forgiveness for even these sins. Pray for them. In love and charity suggest reading material that you think will help them understand. But calling them heretics (even if the definition seems to apply) and ignorant and the negative tone in this thread seems like it will help Satan do his work more than it will help the Holy Spirit.
 
40.png
Lrning:
Wow. I really like this forum, but this thread seems to bring out the worst in people. I personally do not want “liberal” Catholics to leave the Church. Why not? Because I was once one of them. Ignorantly spouting my own opinions about contraception, abortion, missing mass, etc, etc. And I still called myself Catholic and (I’m now ashamed to say) even received Holy Communion. I was truly a “cafeteria Catholic”. But God never gave up on me. The Holy Spirit continued to work on me and I finally saw the light. That can and will happen to others as well. And thankfully God offers his mercy and forgiveness for even these sins. Pray for them. In love and charity suggest reading material that you think will help them understand. But calling them heretics (even if the definition seems to apply) and ignorant and the negative tone in this thread seems like it will help Satan do his work more than it will help the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that.

That’s exactly what we should pray for – that those who cannot presently accept the Church’s teachings should come back to the Church in spirit as well as in the flesh.
 
Question: Should Liberals Leave the Catholic Church?
Answer: They already have!

You cannot “self-identify” as a Catholic when you do not believe in the mandatory tenets of the Catholic religion and still live in the real world where words have meaning. Those who do this are either living in a fantasy world (ignorance), or are simply being dishonest. Encouraging somebody along this path is not doing them any favors. It is not true charity (love). Love is patient and kind. Yes. Also: Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but in the truth. (1Cor13) Christianity is a religion of truth. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6) Real love is in service to Truth (Jesus).

I heard somebody give a chilling analogy once: When you get an inoculation, you get a weak form of the disease so you won’t catch the real thing. This is exactly what Cafeteria Catholics are getting in some of these liberal parishes.

I too was once a liberal catholic, rejecting outright key moral teachings. I left the Church and attended services elsewhere for a couple of years. This seemed the intellectually honest thing to do. Eventually I was led back “home” to realize i needed to submit to Jesus’ teachings before I could really be in Jesus’ Church. I no longer associate with my former liberal Catholic friends who never left (physically) and are now busy forming groups to foment “revolution” (their word) within the Church. I regretfully came to the conclusion that having coffee with these people and trying to gently cajole them to believe was time and energy poorly spent. I now spend those hours “telling mommy on them” via the rosary. 😃 She’s a lot wiser and gentler (and more powerful) anyway.

I would submit that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, can work on you even better when you are not repeating a public misstatement of truth each week at Mass by saying one thing and believing another.
 
What, the Catholic Church should model it’s policies after the Landover Baptist church?

(Which is a parody BTW).

To advocate that people’s faith should be judged here on earth by other sinners. And, that membership in the UNIVERSAL church be selective is a heresy. Any church that does that IS NOT the Catholic Church.
 
40.png
urban-hermit:
Question: Should Liberals Leave the Catholic Church?
Answer: They already have!
Click to expand...
If by “liberal” you mean those who reject the Magisterium, you are correct.

We should pray for them to return and accept the teachings of the Church.
 
40.png
coyote:
What, the Catholic Church should model it’s policies after the Landover Baptist church?

(Which is a parody BTW).

To advocate that people’s faith should be judged here on earth by other sinners. And, that membership in the UNIVERSAL church be selective is a heresy. Any church that does that IS NOT the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
You miss the point. Those who reject the Magisterium have separated themselves from the Church. They are excommunicated latae sententae (by their own actions.)

And while we should all pray for their return, we should not overlook the fact that the Church has always had the power to call her erring children to account.

The next time you go to mass, look for those who approach the priest with arms crossed over the breast at communion. These are people who cannot take communion – usually because they are divorced and remarried.

Now if people in this state cannot take communion, how are we to deny that one who rejects the Magisterium commits a mortal sin if he takes communion?
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
…I find it ironic that one of the reasons the Church opposes the death penalty is that it allows the person to repent and turn to God but so many won’t give a fallen away Catholic otherwise living a pretty moral life time to reconcile all their differences with God.
Click to expand...
The Church does not entirely oppose the death penalty, but states clearly: Capital Punishment. 2266 "…Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime…When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation…, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.67

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude,…, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

'If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

‘Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’[John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.]’"
 
40.png
EtienneGilson:
That is about the dumbest thing said here. Now Okanagan Springs Pale Ale…that is a beer worth drinking!

That is about the most intelligent point made so far. In his day, Thomas Aquinas and all the scholastics were considered liberals because of their use of the new discursive method in theology.

It really depends on what a “liberal” is. As to the opening article; I think the example of people who think priests should be selected from either the celebate or married state was given as a case of liberals…those flaming liberals…oh, wait, The Eastern Catholic churches already do that.

Homosexual adoptions? Cardinal Lavada brokeraged a deal in San Fran but according to some of the more traditional posters here, that deal was nothing but the *evil liberal modernism * that has caused everything from abortion to men wearing white socks with sandals.

I do not understand why so many people are h*ll-bent on seeing the Catholic Church as small as possible. Maybe some flamming secular liberals want the Catholic Church to disappear; but even us Catholic liberals (you know, the ones who think married men could be admitted to the priesthood, that women could be made Cardinals and that pews or chairs are fine in any church) don’t want to leave the Church, we want the Church to be the body of Christ, the arc of refuge, the hope for our souls, the path to peace; not an extension of the Republican party.
Click to expand...
We don’t get a vote. The Vatican speaks, we listen.

What you want is NOT the Roman Catholic Church.

It is some bastardized version that many wish to create. It has been done before, it is called being Protestant. By all means, go ahead, but trying to change the essence of Catholicism removes a person from that which they are trying to “change”; being Catholic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top