Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[rlg94086]

THANK YOU!!! and welcome to the thread of misconceptions.

No misconceptions at all - read his whole post. He doesn’t “reject the Magisterium,” he just doesn’t believe they have authority…unless it’s something he agrees with.

That ***is ***rejecting the Magisterium.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The magisterium is, as defined in the Catechism:

***100 ***The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

Sounds like a group of men to me.

Nope – that wasn’t orginally written in English. The task in question is the Magisterium, not the** men** who carry it out.

 

[estesbob]

THANK YOU!!! and welcome to the thread of misconceptions.

You evidenly missed this part of his statement:

I know I don’t agree w/ everything declared infallible. That has led me to only one conclusion**…I don’t believe the Magisterium is infallible. I don’t believe in the infallibility of men**.

He rejects the magestrium. He couldnt of made it more clear. Do you share the view he expressed above?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I disagree with this. People’s faith is not that weak nor are they so stupid. They fall away usually because of the problems within the Church and the way they are treated. Most fallen away Catholics were extremely hurt in some way and are very bitter toward the Church.

Read what you wrote.

People leave the Church because they choose to place themselves above all – they become “hurt” and “bitter,” not prayerful and discerning.

Their demons are of their own making.

 

[estesbob]

I disagree with this. People’s faith is not that weak nor are they so stupid. They fall away usually because of the problems within the Church and the way they are treated. Most fallen away Catholics were extremely hurt in some way and are very bitter toward the Church.

If they accepted the authority of the Church they would never fall away and no one could ever hurt them. They get “hurt” when they find out that their own personal version of Catholicism is at odds wiith what the Church teaches.

 

[fix]

I think there is some confusion here. No one is saying they reject the Magisterium. Most “cafeteria Catholics” I know take into account what is said by the Magisterium, use it as a guide, but not an infallible one. I know I don’t agree w/ everything declared infallible. That has led me to only one conclusion…I don’t believe the Magisterium is infallible. I don’t believe in the infallibility of men.

Is this not a contradiction? If one rejects the existence of gift of infallibility one is rejecting their authority. That authority comes from Christ.

 

[anamchara]

I dont know “what kind of catholic” you are since so far all you have said is that we must "love’ and then criticized us for acting like Pharaees.

I guess its easier to defend you beliefs when you never tell anyone what they are.

bob, this thread was not about what I believe so there was no need to dive into my own personal beliefs. We were discussing if liberals should leave the Church and then we veered off into how conservatives can be so cold about the letter of the law which is admittedly what I brought into the discussion. Now, several times Robert and I have had a few exhanges, if you go back and read those you will probably get idea of my stand on things.

I will throw in a wrench here, Traditionalists can be cafeteria Catholics as well. Picking and choosing which older Pope they want to bring forward to prove a point which is normally outdated and not even what the Church believes anymore. They also have a habit of spending pages and pages in a thread about how wrong VACII is to the point where even the Pope is suspect. I’ve read it, believe it or not.

I think the problem is the Church is very complex and not meant for the basic lay people to debate. My goodness we have cannon lawyers for a reason! I’m not saying we can’t debate but it seems so futile, unless you are a scholar in cannon law or a priest with many years of study, I doubt I’d take your word for things. I’ve only met one conservative on here that I really trust and have a great deal of respect for.

I also trust dh (strummer) as him and I are of the same mind on most things in the Church.

 

[estesbob]

I will throw in a wrench here, Traditionalists can be cafeteria Catholics as well. Picking and choosing which older Pope they want to bring forward to prove a point which is normally outdated and not even what the Church believes anymore. They also have a habit of spending pages and pages in a thread about how wrong VACII is to the point where even the Pope is suspect. I’ve read it, believe it or not.

Can you give us an example? if the Pope was speaking ex cathedra we all have to believe it. if he was expressing his opinion we should give it great weight but there is no requirement it must be believed. if in doubt go to the cathecism.

I think the problem is the Church is very complex and not meant for the basic lay people to debate. My goodness we have cannon lawyers for a reason! I’m not saying we can’t debate but it seems so futile, unless you are a scholar in cannon law or a priest with many years of study, I doubt I’d take your word for things. I’ve only met one conservative on here that I really trust and have a great deal of respect for.

I dont think it is very complex at all. The problem come when people try to rationlaize disobeying its teachings-which is what most of the debates here are all about.

I also trust dh (strummer) as him and I are of the same mind on most things in the Church.

I trust the Church

 

[anamchara]

If they accepted the authority of the Church they would never fall away and no one could ever hurt them. They get “hurt” when they find out that their own personal version of Catholicism is at odds wiith what the Church teaches.

no that’s not true, what about children who were abused in the Church? Many of them fell away. Most Catholics who leave are very bitter toward the Church due to some hurt not about the belief. Our priest tells us stories of incredible pain people have gone through in years past. It used to be that a priest would not give a Mass for someone who committed suicide and seriously humiliating the family. I don’t know what your life is like bob but if you have any children imagine your pain upon hearing that your child who has committed suicide will not receive a proper burial?

You should go and read on a website called “Once Catholic” it’s about people coming back to the Church and being counseled by priests and sisters. We actually have an office in our diocese that helps people come back and I doubt they are shoving dogma and telling them to get over it and just read the Catechism or saying “if you would just accept the authority of the Church!!” as I said it’ not all about the law the Church has love and compassion for the faithful as well. We have to have the balance between letter of law and compassion. I see many who only have letter of the law.

 

[boppaid]

But people do excommunicate themselves. There’s not a church in the land where some of the people in the Communion line don’t have their arms crossed over their breasts…

Actually, there’s quite a few. I’ve never seen this at any mass I’ve attended, except one last year.

 

[anamchara]

Can you give us an example? if the Pope was speaking ex cathedra we all have to believe it. if he was expressing his opinion we should give it great weight but there is no requirement it must be believed. if in doubt go to the cathecism.

 

[estesbob]

no that’s not true, what about children who were abused in the Church? Many of them fell away. Most Catholics who leave are very bitter toward the Church due to some hurt not about the belief. Our priest tells us stories of incredible pain people have gone through in years past. It used to be that a priest would not give a Mass for someone who committed suicide and seriously humiliating the family. I don’t know what your life is like bob but if you have any children imagine your pain upon hearing that your child who has committed suicide will not receive a proper burial?

If one accepts the authority of the Churc them they know oit is the one true Church, the Church founded by Jessu and there is absolutely nothing that could pry them away.

You should go and read on a website called “Once Catholic” it’s about people coming back to the Church and being counseled by priests and sisters. We actually have an office in our diocese that helps people come back and I doubt they are shoving dogma and telling them to get over it and just read the Catechism or saying “if you would just accept the authority of the Church!!” as I said it’ not all about the law the Church has love and compassion for the faithful as well. We have to have the balance between letter of law and compassion. I see many who only have letter of the law.

I am sorry-if you reject the teachings of the Church(law] then any compassion you show is a false compassion. I am not about to try and lure people into the Church by telling them they dont have to worry about its teachings. I have seen way too much of it. Catholics who contend that they dont have to worry about not using contraception or going to mass on Sundays or even living togehter. They dont have to follow those “rules” and when one questions them they get upset and start talking about Pharasees and take the beam out of your own eye, etc.

 

[boppaid]

Sheesh. No sooner does one attempt to point out the uncharity in labelling when folks come out to label with avengeance.

Go figure. :hypno:

In all fairness, the poster who said this was specifically asked to provide specifics at what she doesn’t like. Her answer was truthful, but came across as uncharitible. Oftentimes, if someone doesn’t want to hear someone’s truth, they shouldn’t ask for it.

 

[anamchara]

You evidenly missed this part of his statement:

He rejects the magestrium. He couldnt of made it more clear. Do you share the view he expressed above?

Bob if I agreed with that I would have highlighted that as well LOL! People normally highlight what they agree with stop looking for things. I also would say he doesn’t reject the magestrium.

 

[boppaid]

anamchara;2438812:

As a Catholic why would anyone have to shove Dogma down your throat?

Good question. I often wonder why people feel the need to do it to me.

 

[rlg94086]

You should go and read on a website called “Once Catholic” it’s about people coming back to the Church and being counseled by priests and sisters. We actually have an office in our diocese that helps people come back and I doubt they are shoving dogma and telling them to get over it and just read the Catechism or saying “if you would just accept the authority of the Church!!” as I said it’ not all about the law the Church has love and compassion for the faithful as well. We have to have the balance between letter of law and compassion. I see many who only have letter of the law.

This is where there seems to be some confusion on your part anamchara. I read the Once Catholic site, and their answers on homosexuality, birth control, etc. are orthodox (i.e. in line with the teaching of the Magisterium). That would make it “conservative” when it comes to its outlook on the “letter of the law.”

Liberals vary in their acceptance of such teaching. For example, where Once Catholic explains the Church’s position on birth control and teaches about NFP, some liberals would tell a potential Catholic that they don’t have to follow that teaching…it’s a matter of conscience (this is what I was told when I converted).

You seem to equate love and compassion with liberal. Love and compassion are a separate issue, which liberals and conservatives both possess. Liberals and conservatives can also act on their beliefs without love and compassion.

I agree with you that compassion is the best way to present facts, but that is not easy for us humans…especially on a written, anonymous forum. It is easier one-on-one.

 

[anamchara]

I am sorry-if you reject the teachings of the Church(law] then any compassion you show is a false compassion.

Ok, here is where we have to part ways my friend. I never once implied this and how you came to this conclusion is beyond me. I wish you well.

 

[fix]

I think the problem is the Church is very complex and not meant for the basic lay people to debate. My goodness we have cannon lawyers for a reason! I’m not saying we can’t debate but it seems so futile, unless you are a scholar in cannon law or a priest with many years of study, I doubt I’d take your word for things. I’ve only met one conservative on here that I really trust and have a great deal of respect for.

One does not need to be a Canon lawyer or Theologian to grasp that Christ founded one Church and that His authority was given to the Pope and bishops in union with him. Also, one does not need any advanced degree to submit with docility to Christ through His Church.

You talk about legalisms and cold heartedness but I find those who claim the mantle “liberal” use legalisms to find a way to not submit. Why?

If the “average” Catholic cannot know for sure what is true and what is error then we all would be guilty of what some call “blind obedience”.

 

[rlg94086]

I am sorry-if you reject the teachings of the Church(law] then any compassion you show is a false compassion. I am not about to try and lure people into the Church by telling them they dont have to worry about its teachings. I have seen way too much of it. Catholics who contend that they dont have to worry about not using contraception or going to mass on Sundays or even living togehter. They dont have to follow those “rules” and when one questions them they get upset and start talking about Pharasees and take the beam out of your own eye, etc.

Bob,

Give Once Catholic a read. It appears orthodox to me. I read the three biggies that upset most people - contraception, homosexuality and divorce. It handles them correctly and in line with the teaching of the Church.

If anamchara believes as the site does, she is a conservative…she just doesn’t know it.

Robert

 

[anamchara]

This is where there seems to be some confusion on your part anamchara. I read the Once Catholic

site, and their answers on homosexuality, birth control, etc. are orthodox (i.e. in line with the teaching of the Magisterium). That would make it “conservative” when it comes to its outlook on the “letter of the law.”

Well, since we never really went into my own personal beliefs, as I said that wasn’t what the topic of this thread. No confusion, you are just not reading my words and reading into them with your filter. Isn’t that site great compassion and letter of the law, a beautiful mix! I don’t know why are you surprised since several pages back we had this conversation on those topics I love that site I went there as a convert and got in contact with a nun locally who lead me in. They are wonderful!

You seem to equate love and compassion with liberal