Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[rlg94086]

Umm, I don’t, most of you do by using words like “teddy bear” “squishy” “happy clappy”, “feel good” and much more, conservatives give liberals the labels .

Nope. You are a conservative my friend…just a “happy clappy” conservative.

This is why labels stink! From what I have gleaned from your posts, you are orthodox when it comes to the teachings of the Church, but you like the hand-holding, modern music, and less traditional Mass. There are plenty of “conservatives” who are in your camp. I used to be, but I have fallen in love with the more reverent Mass. After understanding it, where the focus is, the reason we don’t hold hands, etc.; I find it difficult to go back to the “happy clappy” parishes. We did so recently, while on vacation, and my 13yo daughter, who has experienced both said “what do they think this is, a Broadway show?” Not how I would have described it, but they obviously gained an appreciation for the more reverant as well.

There are a lot of “liberals” whom you and Strummer would disagree with regarding the teaching of the Church. You would just be doing it while holding hands and singing “City of God” perhaps. (I had to sing that a capella once when my pianist didn’t make it back from his bio break in time, and father motioned to start. )

 

[Ani_Ibi]

In all fairness, the poster who said this was specifically asked to provide specifics at what she doesn’t like. Her answer was truthful, but came across as uncharitible. Oftentimes, if someone doesn’t want to hear someone’s truth, they shouldn’t ask for it.

In fairness? In fairness? Labelling folks is fair? Since when?

As for truth, the truth of the matter is that Catholics are Catholics. If they want to call themselves Liberals or if they want to call other folks Regressives, then perhaps they had better take a good hard look at just how comfortable they are with the name ‘Catholic.’

 

[anamchara]

Nope. You are a conservative my friend…just a “happy clappy” conservative.

This is why labels stink! From what I have gleaned from your posts, you are orthodox when it comes to the teachings of the Church, but you like the hand-holding, modern music, and less traditional Mass. There are plenty of “conservatives” who are in your camp. I used to be, but I have fallen in love with the more reverent Mass. After understanding it, where the focus is, the reason we don’t hold hands, etc.; I find it difficult to go back to the “happy clappy” parishes. We did so recently, while on vacation, and my 13yo daughter, who has experienced both said “what do they think this is, a Broadway show?” Not how I would have described it, but they obviously gained an appreciation for the more reverant as well.

There are a lot of “liberals” whom you and Strummer would disagree with regarding the teaching of the Church. You would just be doing it while holding hands and singing “City of God” perhaps. (I had to sing that a capella once when my pianist didn’t make it back from his bio break in time, and father motioned to start. )

you nearly explained me pretty well happy clappy conservative! lol! I liked being called squishy liberal better. to be honest, I never grew up holding hands during the Lords prayer. I converted from a reverent mainline Protestant background. I was actually surprised to see that Catholics held hands but I was ok with it I don’t know if I like “City of God”

I should show you some pictures of our parish, it’s actually very orthodox looking and no we don’t clap to the music lol! But we did at our old parish and I like it

 

[estesbob]

you nearly explained me pretty well happy clappy conservative! lol! I liked being called squishy liberal better. to be honest, I never grew up holding hands during the Lords prayer. I converted from a reverent mainline Protestant background. I was actually surprised to see that Catholics held hands but I was ok with it I don’t know if I like “City of God”

I should show you some pictures of our parish, it’s actually very orthodox looking and no we don’t clap to the music lol! But we did at our old parish and I like it

Outsntaing-so now can we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya! )

 

[anamchara]

Outsntaing-so now can we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya! )

I feel a group hug coming on :grouphug::hug1: peace and love baby

 

[rlg94086]

Outstanding-so now can we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya! )

Ah…we have a video for that…well, Kumbaya and Happy Days (in honor of the Motu Proprio) :
wdtprs.com/blog/2007/07/the-hermeneutic-of-continuity-celebrates-with-video/

:dancing:

 

[Julianna]

I swear this is one of the only two verses most liberal Catholics know. (The other is the one about the “beam in your eye” ) You have really added no insight in what you believe other than it has something to with love and the rest of us are Pharasees.

Well at least you like Harry Potter…

dear sweet bob…I am not a liberal by any means, you should know that by now, my friend. I did not delve deeper into my beliefs as it would have thrown the thread off course. I did not say you all are the Pharisees…I was referring to the “attitude” displayed toward those who question a law, or believe that it is not realavent. Fire and brimestone and quoting more laws doesn’t always answer the question, it makes one feel even more confused.

I like Harry Potter because I enjoy a good fantasy story…and as one who thinks for herself…I can certainly tell the difference.

 

[Julianna]

I’m asking her…primarily because of these statements:

I think it’s important to read our instruction manual (Catechism) and be versed in the “letter of the law.” Although, I would say her categorizing it as “blind obedience” is ignorant. Blind obedience would be following the Church ***without ***being well versed in the Bible and the Catechism. That said, blind obedience is better than trying to justify no obedience by quoting the words of Our Lord.

I have read many criticisms of the sola scripture that many evangelical Protestants follow and how out of touch they are…so begs the question…if Catholics are chaptered and versed in the Catechism…how is that any different? Both camps are literalists, with no room to question…

If a person is occupied with the Catechism and raining it down on those who ask a question or dare to say…“hey, you know…I disagree with that statement”…when does a person have time to devote to the “spirit of the law”?

How do you know I am not obedient? You know as much about me as I do you…which are mere words on forum in cyberspace. I do believe our Lord’s words have meaning. By their fruits you shall know them…another one of my favorites. I have read about the things that Jesus did…how could someone not be in awe of that? How could someone not follow in His footsteps with the example he has left for us?

I am happy for you that you seek solice in the Catechism and follow it to its core. For me, it is in His words and by His actions I find comfort and answers.

Should liberals leave the Church…only if they want to.

 

[Julianna]

Edit: oops rlg94086 beat me to the post in response. Take into account also that rlg94086 asked because she said this too:

It just feels like it implies disobedience.

Well send me to the stockade.

 

[rlg94086]

I have read many criticisms of the sola scripture that many evangelical Protestants follow and how out of touch they are…so begs the question…if Catholics are chaptered and versed in the Catechism…how is that any different? Both camps are literalists, with no room to question…

The problem with Sola Scriptura is not that they quote chapter and verse, but that they believe that “scripture alone” (thus the name) is sufficient. It isn’t. We have Tradition and the Magisterium - the Catechism is a major representation of both.

Julianna:

If a person is occupied with the Catechism and raining it down on those who ask a question or dare to say…“hey, you know…I disagree with that statement”…when does a person have time to devote to the “spirit of the law”?

Plenty of time for both…and, no juggling required. :juggle: (I’ve been waiting for a chance to use that smiley )

Julianna:

How do you know I am not obedient? You know as much about me as I do you…which are mere words on forum in cyberspace. I do believe our Lord’s words have meaning. By their fruits you shall know them…another one of my favorites. I have read about the things that Jesus did…how could someone not be in awe of that? How could someone not follow in His footsteps with the example he has left for us?

I didn’t accuse you of being disobedient. You may want to read a little closer.

Julianna:

I am happy for you that you seek solice in the Catechism and follow it to its core. For me, it is in His words and by His actions I find comfort and answers.

As Catholics, we have all-of-the-above. In fact, it is flat-out wrong to divorce the teaching of the Magisterium (through the Catechism, encyclicals, etc.) from the Holy Scripture.

Julianna:

Should liberals leave the Church…only if they want to.

No argument here.

Does this mean you will or won’t be joining us in the group hug? :grouphug:

 

[anamchara]

Well send me to the stockade.

good posts Juli, glad to see you step back in I was not happy that they twisted your words around

 

[wutru]

The church doesn’t need any progressive members. Some of us question certain teachings. I know the church is not a democracy. So, we will leave. The church, at least many of it’s members say get out. Fine, my family and I will leave. I can easily raise my family in another denomination.

I could never threaten to leave Christ’s Church for anybody!

My wife wants to remain Catholic. She said she will leave when she gets a letter from the Bishop. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit is calling my family to another church.

Satan tempts many.

My son has Autism. The priest treats him like vermin. No Christian compassion. Funny how the church which preaches “Life” has contempt for the less than perfect. I guess I’ll have to go cherry picking elsewhere. I cannot be an elite Catholic. Our lord said “You must be perfect”. Well I cannot be a “perfect” Catholic.
My kids and my wife aren’t perfect either. The church doesn’t need us. We don’t need it either. God reveals himself in many ways. God knows my family and my life with all our imperfections. God will provide. God Bless!

Oh please! Stop playing the “abused” victim part. You’re not the only one sufferring in the world. God indeed!

 

[anamchara]

Ah…we have a video for that…well, Kumbaya and Happy Days (in honor of the Motu Proprio) :
wdtprs.com/blog/2007/07/the-hermeneutic-of-continuity-celebrates-with-video/

:dancing:

That is a very unfair u-tube video it only showed over the top NO Mass with dance as if that equated with NO, :tsktsk:

 

[rlg94086]

good posts Juli, glad to see you step back in I was not happy that they twisted your words around

I didn’t twist anybody’s words. And, actually, she still hasn’t answered whether she believes we should follow the teaching of the Catechism or not. She only claimed that I accused her of disobedience.

 

[anamchara]

I could never threaten to leave Christ’s Church for anybody!

well goodie two shoe for you, I guess that makes you perfect if only we had more so devoted as yourself.

Oh please! Stop playing the “abused” victim part.

 

[anamchara]

I didn’t twist anybody’s words. And, actually, she still hasn’t answer whether she believes we should follow the teaching of the Catechism or not. She only claimed that I accused her of disobedience.

I think a few others have. And why are you concerned about whether she does or not? Why is it important to find out? Can’t her words stand on their own? Isn’t what she said true? I believe the sentiment is dead on. You worry too much about the persons beliefs or want to check their Catholic worthiness. Just deal with what they have to say. Why put anyone on trial?

 

[Julianna]

It’s also about love and forgiveness and if you would actually read ALL my posts instead of twisting what I’ve been saying on here you would know exactly what I believe. As I said before there is no reason to debate with you because you have decided in your own mind what kind of Catholic I am.

I’ll defend whoever I want on here, thank you

Thanks anamchara.

I sometimes find debate refreshing…as I do tiring. I truly believe that if every Catholic followed every rule, every law to the letter, CAF would have no reason to exist. There would be no liberals to questions…there would be no moderates who can see both sides of the equation…there would be no need of guidance from the Holy Spirit…because we would all be in total agreement. The danger of that though is stagnation of what makes makes us “human”…that being the ability to “think” and “reason”.

Oh, by the way…one of my favorite songs…is “We are Called”.

 

[rlg94086]

I think a few others have. And why are you concerned about whether she does or not? Why is it important to find out? Can’t her words stand on their own? Isn’t what she said true? I believe the sentiment is dead on. You worry too much about the persons beliefs or want to check their Catholic worthiness. Just deal with what they have to say. Why put anyone on trial?

It’s not a trial.

I’m not worried about her beliefs, nor am I questioning her worthiness. I am asking, so I can understand what she believes. She did not state it clearly. In fact, you believe some people twisted her words. If they did, it’s because they were restating what they thought she meant. If she states it clearly, we won’t need to do that.

 

[Julianna]

It’s not a trial.

I’m not worried about her beliefs, nor am I questioning her worthiness. I am asking, so I can understand what she believes. She did not state it clearly. In fact, you believe some people twisted her words. If they did, it’s because they were restating what they thought she meant. If she states it clearly, we won’t need to do that.

Ok, I hope this clears things up for you…it’s the easiest way I can explain it. This is how I summed up the Catechism from what I was taught growing up. The first time I read this…I was in total amazement. As an adult, in 2007…“the one holy catholic church”…is the part where I have the questions. As some liberals…especially those who lean heavily to the left will ask the question…is there only “one”? I hope this helps you all. This is the version I learned…and call me trad…but this is the version that is most meaningful to me. you all are free to think as you will.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks Julianna,

I’m a convert, so I have no idea how much the Catechism has changed. From what I see, that is one part out of four:

Part One: The Profession of Faith
Part Two: The Celebration of the Christian Mystery
Part Three: Life in Christ
Part Four: Christian Prayer

I find all four useful in understanding Church teaching and Tradition.

As far as the question about “one catholic church,” give this a read and tell me where you think there is a problem.

[818](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/818.htm’) "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

It’s only a part of the secion on the “one, holy, catholic Church”: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Pax,
Robert

Ok, I hope this clears things up for you…it’s the easiest way I can explain it. This is how I summed up the Catechism from what I was taught growing up. The first time I read this…I was in total amazement. As an adult, in 2007…“the one holy catholic church”…is the part where I have the questions. As some liberals…especially those who lean heavily to the left will ask the question…is there only “one”? I hope this helps you all. This is the version I learned…and call me trad…but this is the version that is most meaningful to me. you all are free to think as you will.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.