Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[Julianna]

The Magisterium doesn’t put any draws on. The Magisterium is a power, not a man. And it is accompanied by the gift (Kharisma) of Infallibility.

Are there “human beings” in the Magisterium? If so, there will be mistakes made.

This all out “let’s bring back the good ol’ days of sack cloth and ashes” isn’t cutting it with anyone who grew up in Vat II.

Should liberals leave the Catholic Church? Not unless they want to. I find it difficult to believe that there are people in the church who would “throw out” someone who has a “different opinion” on an issue. Best to keep quiet I guess…but that can be frustrating. No one has the answer…it is the extremists who mess it up for everyone else and keep the “arguement” going. I am a moderate…I do think for myself. I will not buy into just anything. The Holy Spirit is an excellent source to aid me in my thoughts and feelings. Hasn’t steered me wrong yet. It is human beings who have a far right or far left bend on the sheep mentality that send me bonkers. I don’t have a key in my back, and fear tactics do not work with me. I know what Jesus said…and I know what other “human beings” wrote in the bible. Jesus is God. I don’t remember Jesus penning canon law or even reciting it. In all my catechisms classes dating back to 1965, I never remember having to digest canon law, nor do I remember a test on it. I don’t remember a requirement to “know” it backwards and forwards. I do remember learning about Jesus, the sacraments, the roaary, the BVM and the Apostles. I remember learning how the Pope is selected and the heirarchy of the church (sounds political to me, but hey, there has to be leader in all human organizations). I remember learning about social justice, the sin of abortion and about the calling to vocations or to religious life.

If you think I have missed the boat on something, take up with the Diocese of Springfield, in Massachusetts or the Diocese of Charleston in SC. I am quite satisfied with what I have learned. I know that being a Catholic is not a fishbowl, cavelike existance. I would never tell a person of another faith, that my faith is the end all and be all…because my faith was given to me by my parents and is cultural. Am I perfect…far from it. But “I know” that. Too bad some of the self-righteous (no matter the faith), can’t seem to grasp that idea and would call for immediate excommunication of those who dare to ask a question.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Are there “human beings” in the Magisterium? If so, there will be mistakes made.

The Magisterium is a power, not a person – your question is like asking “Are there human beings in the electricity.”

This all out “let’s bring back the good ol’ days of sack cloth and ashes” isn’t cutting it with anyone who grew up in Vat II.

Your characterization of your fellow Catholics is uncharitable.

And why should we care if the Church “isn’t cutting it” with someone? That person should pray for the grace to understand and accept.

Should liberals leave the Catholic Church? Not unless they want to. I find it difficult to believe that there are people in the church who would “throw out” someone who has a “different opinion” on an issue. Best to keep quiet I guess…but that can be frustrating.

No, best to pray for the grace to accept and understand.

No one has the answer…

The Church has the answer – you have only to open your heart.

it is the extremists who mess it up for everyone else and keep the “arguement” going. I am a moderate…I do think for myself. I will not buy into just anything. The Holy Spirit is an excellent source to aid me in my thoughts and feelings. Hasn’t steered me wrong yet.

The Holy Spirit steers the Church – which in turn teaches the Faithful. If something is steering you contrary to what the Church teaches, you ought to suspect that it isn’t the Holy Spirit.

It is human beings who have a far right or far left bend on the sheep mentality that send me bonkers. I don’t have a key in my back, and fear tactics do not work with me. I know what Jesus said…and I know what other “human beings” wrote in the bible. Jesus is God. I don’t remember Jesus penning canon law or even reciting it. In all my catechisms classes dating back to 1965, I never remember having to digest canon law, nor do I remember a test on it. I don’t remember a requirement to “know” it backwards and forwards. I do remember learning about Jesus, the sacraments, the roaary, the BVM and the Apostles. I remember learning how the Pope is selected and the heirarchy of the church (sounds political to me, but hey, there has to be leader in all human organizations). I remember learning about social justice, the sin of abortion and about the calling to vocations or to religious life.

If you think I have missed the boat on something, take up with the Diocese of Springfield, in Massachusetts or the Diocese of Charleston in SC. I am quite satisfied with what I have learned. I know that being a Catholic is not a fishbowl, cavelike existance. I would never tell a person of another faith, that my faith is the end all and be all…because my faith was given to me by my parents and is cultural. Am I perfect…far from it. But “I know” that. Too bad some of the self-righteous (no matter the faith), can’t seem to grasp that idea and would call for immediate excommunication of those who dare to ask a question.

You seem focussed on yourself and your feelings instead of the Church. Pray for the grace to accept and understand.

 

[goofyjim]

And there are some conservatives who should leave as well. This Church is not meant to be conservative or liberal. It is like the Pharisees vs. Sadducees argument which constantly divides. The one thing that unites us is that we are all sinners and if anyone, conservative or liberal, forgets this, he should leave.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And there are some conservatives who should leave as well. This Church is not meant to be conservative or liberal. It is like the Pharisees vs. Sadducees argument which constantly divides. The one thing that unites us is that we are all sinners and if anyone, conservative or liberal, forgets this, he should leave.

Jim, no one should leave the Church. We should all pray for the grace to understand, accept and live by the Church’s teaching.

Remember the Parable of the Talents:

14 "It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
15 To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
16 the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
17 Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
18 But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
19 After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
22 (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’
23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
24 Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
25 so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
26 His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
27 Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
28 Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
29 For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

(Matthew, 25, 14-30)

God has entrusted us in the United States with 60 million Catholics. What will He say to us when we return to Him only 30 million?

 

[fix]

No one has the answer…it is the extremists who mess it up for everyone else and keep the “arguement” going. I am a moderate…I do think for myself. I will not buy into just anything. The Holy Spirit is an excellent source to aid me in my thoughts and feelings. Hasn’t steered me wrong yet. It is human beings who have a far right or far left bend on the sheep mentality that send me bonkers. I don’t have a key in my back, and fear tactics do not work with me. I know what Jesus said…and I know what other “human beings” wrote in the bible. Jesus is God. I don’t remember Jesus penning canon law or even reciting it.

How does your understanding differ from relativism?

 

[Nohome]

The Magisterium is a power, not a person.

Agreed; however, said power is believed to reside with the episcopacy. Last time I checked, they were all human. Frankly, the thought that these individuals could not error in matters of faith gave me the willys. Just one in a long list of reasons to submit my actus formalis.

Nohome

 

[vern_humphrey]

Agreed; however, said power is believed to reside with the episcopacy. Last time I checked, they were all human.

The power is not human. There is a God, you know.

Frankly, the thought that these individuals could not error in matters of faith gave me the willys. Just one in a long list of reasons to submit my actus formalis.

Nohome

You seem lost inside yourself. Why not pray for acceptance and understanding?

 

[Nohome]

You seem lost inside yourself.

How did you come to this conclusion? What on eath do you mean? Perhaps I could say the same of someone who can’t fathom that someone could reject the same faith they embrace.

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

There is a God, you know.

Served by humans that are subject to error.

 

[vern_humphrey]

How did you come to this conclusion? What on eath do you mean?

Go back and read your own posts.

You say the Magisterium is exercised by men. Are you not a man, a member of the human race? It they, exercising the Magisterium, can be wrong – can you be right?

Look outside yourself for answers. Question your own beliefs just as you question the Church. Consider your own fallibility.

And pray for the grace to accept the Church’s teachings.

Perhaps I could say the same of someone who can’t fathom that someone could reject the same faith they embrace.

Nohome

I can fathom it easily – no one here can say that he has never been troubled in his soul, never had doubts, never found it difficult to believe.

 

[Julianna]

The Magisterium is a power, not a person – your question is like asking “Are there human beings in the electricity.”

Behind the “electricity” is a group of human beings who regulate it and turn it on and off.

Your characterization of your fellow Catholics is uncharitable.
Fellow Christians don’t hammer others over the head with their faith. By their fruits you shall know them.

And why should we care if the Church “isn’t cutting it” with someone? That person should pray for the grace to understand and accept.
Dialogue and questions are the keys to understanding. Grace is to know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, when to walk away and when to run. Over zealous and instilling fear into people is not a way to bring them to Christ.

No, best to pray for the grace to accept and understand.
Not from what I have read on this thread. It’s more like, if you question or even show a slight disagree…good-bye, so long, farewell…may God have mercy upon your poorly informed soul.

The Church has the answer – you have only to open your heart.
Other faiths say their church has the answer. My heart is open and so is my mind, that is why I am faithful.

The Holy Spirit steers the Church – which in turn teaches the Faithful. If something is steering you contrary to what the Church teaches, you ought to suspect that it isn’t the Holy Spirit.
I don’t suspect…that is the difference between you and I. Living life in suspicion and fear IMHO is not part of being Catholic.

You seem focussed on yourself and your feelings instead of the Church. Pray for the grace to accept and understand.

I have no comment on that…you can think as you wish.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have no comment on that…you can think as you wish.

Look outside yourself. And pray for the grace to accept.

 

[Julianna]

Look outside yourself. And pray for the grace to accept.

Again, we part company. I look within for guidance. Always have. All that glitters is not gold. It is grace that keeps me on an even keel. I can be part of the group without agreeing on each and every point. If we all had the same point of view, we would all look alike.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Again, we part company. I look within for guidance. Always have. All that glitters is not gold.

That is correct – and none of us is gold. Without God’s grace, which comes from without, we are nothing.

We cannot, therefore, set ourselves up as our own moral touchstones – that way lies antinomianism.

It is grace that keeps me on an even keel. I can be part of the group without agreeing on each and every point. If we all had the same point of view, we would all look alike.

No one says we should all have the same point of view (although how that would affect our looks is beyond me.) But we must also accept God’s teachings through His Church.

 

[goofyjim]

Jim, no one should leave the Church. We should all pray for the grace to understand, accept and live by the Church’s teaching.

Remember the Parable of the Talents:

(Matthew, 25, 14-30)

God has entrusted us in the United States with 60 million Catholics. What will He say to us when we return to Him only 30 million?

Well then why are we inviting liberals to leave? There are those liberals who must come in line with Church teaching but I can point out a few conservatives too. So it stands that either all be welcome or we kick them out at both ends.

 

[Nohome]

You say the Magisterium is exercised by men. Are you not a man, a member of the human race? It they, exercising the Magisterium, can be wrong – can you be right?

ROTFLOL!!! Complete illogical nonsense! This would only hold water if someone said “humans are always wrong”.

Question your own beliefs just as you question the Church.

You assume that I don’t?

Nohome

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well then why are we inviting liberals to leave?

Who’s inviting them to leave?

Now there is a certain perverse logic in calling oneself a Catholic while rejecting the dogmas of the Church – and in that sense the one who rejects those dogmas has left the Church, regardless of what they consider themselves to be.

But our mission is to welcome back those who left or who are thinking of leaving.

There are those liberals who must come in line with Church teaching but I can point out a few conservatives too. So it stands that either all be welcome or we kick them out at both ends.

How is that different from what I said?

 

[vern_humphrey]

ROTFLOL!!! Complete illogical nonsense! This would only hold water if someone said “humans are always wrong”.

I don’t see where you get the idea that it is illogical. You reject the Magisterium because the Bishops are men.

But you are a man, too – and as liable to error as any man.

You assume that I don’t?

Then why not tell us about it?

Jesus created a Church – the gospels are full of His actions to create an organization. He did not mean for us to be alone, inside ourselves. We cannot reach God through our own, unaided efforts.

Therefore we must reach out to His Church for blessings and guidance.

Where do you go when you reach out for blessings and guidance?

 

[Nohome]

But you are a man, too – and as liable to error as any man.

I am as human as any Bishop, we both are liable to error. There is no proclamation from any eccumenical council that can change this.

Jesus created a Church – the gospels are full of His actions to create an organization. He did not mean for us to be alone, inside ourselves. We cannot reach God through our own, unaided efforts.

Christ’s church is people, like you and me. None greater than the other.

Where do you go when you reach out for blessings and guidance?

I am blessed by God. I have no need for a man made institution. Guidance? I get it from the people I know and trust. I don’t know the men in the Vatican and they don’t know me.

Nohome

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am as human as any Bishop, we both are liable to error. There is no proclamation from any eccumenical council that can change this.

But one person, all by himself, with no link to tradition is far more likely to be in error than the Bishops in council, with access to both the best minds and years of study behind them.

Christ’s church is people, like you and me. None greater than the other.

Greater? No one is greater. Christ Himself demonstrated that when he washed the feet of the Apostles.

But he also organized, trained and commissioned the Apostles, and sent the Holy Spirit to them. And their successors carry on to this day.

I am blessed by God. I have no need for a man made institution.

Christ made the Church – so it cannot be a mere “man made institution.”

Guidance? I get it from the people I know and trust.

And do these people have two millinia of Sacred Tradition behind them? Are they the inheritors of the Apostles.

I don’t know the men in the Vatican and they don’t know me.

You may not know them, but the Church knows you.