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patg
Guest
I thought the church had the mission of bringing everyone to God? Or is it just to bring the “easy” ones to God?
It’s hard to do that with the door locked…
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It’s hard to do that with the door locked…
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byHisGrace
Guest
You’re welcome!
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setter
Guest
There is a difference between bringing others to God, and appropriately reprimanding those children of the same household of God who perisist in their defiant and naughty ways.
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cathgal
Guest
“Easy” ? Why can’t it be the astute ones ? If one day you came to the same conclusion, would you consider yourself “easy” ?
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patg
Guest
cathgal said:
I didn’t mean it in a negative manner - my meaning was that it is maybe along the lines of how some people have a really easy time with math and some struggle all their lives.
The “easy” ness depends on the struggle as related to my comment above.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
You can’t be serious that the Church should lock the doors to people pursuing God even if they are currently out of step with God’s teaching. We (or the Pope for that matter) doesn’t own the Church. We are stewards of the Bride of Christ. He will lock the doors at His Coming. In the meantime, we are to invite people to find Him. If they are misguided, we are to try to correct them but we are always to do so w/ the tender heart of Jesus.
You are correct that they who are subverting Christ’s message are sinners. But the Church is here to help the sinners. The righteous are in no need of the Church as God has already consumed them.
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rlg94086
Guest
Pat,
That’s an interesting analogy. I think I will use it in the future for this sort of discussion.
Struggling with math is exactly the same as someone who is struggling with the teaching of the Churh or “hard sayings” of Jesus. They don’t deny the validity of Algebra or Calculus, or work to change mathematical laws. Rather they accept them as valid, and struggle to understand the principles involved.
In the same way, an obedient Catholic can certainly struggle their whole life with some of the teachings of the Church, but they still accept them as Truth and do their best to live their life accordingly.
God Bless,
Robert
patg:
That’s an interesting analogy. I think I will use it in the future for this sort of discussion.
Struggling with math is exactly the same as someone who is struggling with the teaching of the Churh or “hard sayings” of Jesus. They don’t deny the validity of Algebra or Calculus, or work to change mathematical laws. Rather they accept them as valid, and struggle to understand the principles involved.
In the same way, an obedient Catholic can certainly struggle their whole life with some of the teachings of the Church, but they still accept them as Truth and do their best to live their life accordingly.
God Bless,
Robert
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Jennifer123
Guest
Yes - excellent analogy!!
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JamesG
Guest
You don’t understand the quote from the bible or what I was try to explain.
I never said that the church should lock its doors to people who are in a state of sin. Please read what I wrote a few more times ok.
What I said is that Peter (the chruch) is the only one with the keys to the truth of Christ.
I am saying that the Church as the right to keep the truth locked and secure from liberals who try to subvert or change the intent of the lord.
That in no way implies that the church keeps the truth hidden from everyone. It means that they hold the keys to the truth of Christ and its Implementation. We have to accept that and trust in the Lord. You do not hold the keys. Peter Does.
I don’t see how there is anything to argue here. Why can’t some of you people just accept that you do NOT have right to change the truth. You do not have the right to steal the keys from Peter.
You do not have the right to coerce Peter into using the keys to justify your own selfish desires. If you think otherwise you should be ashamed of yourself.
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shades_of_gray
Guest
Some were raised in the Catholic Church. Remember it growing up as a very secure, accepting and non-divisive upbringing. Now that it has become in their eyes an incredibly divisive institution they are caught between a rock and a hard place. To leave means having to rip their kids out of the same excellent grade school they were raised in. It means confusing their children when it comes to religion. To stay means they have to be very careful and reserved in what they say and do not only when it comes to church and school, but also how they handle discussions with their children, again so they do not confuse them.
Though it is slow to change, the Catholic Church has not been a static institution. Why would one leave if their perception is no other religion would be as familar as the one they were raised in?
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patg
Guest
Then we have a serious disagreement as to what the “truth of Christ” is. You seem to think that things like the recipe for the host, or women’s ordination, or mass attendance are “THE truth of Christ”. I think that the truth of Christ is concerned with his teachings. You know, like love your enemies, love God, avoid sin, God loves you, etc. The first things I mentioned are minor trivialities in relation to the message of Christ. Telling me that supporting women’s ordination or rice hosts is rejecting the “truth of Christ” is utter nonsense. These things are not “Truths” in any sense of the capilaized word and I do expect the church may someday change them.
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setter
Guest
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Dubervilles
Guest
I have the dreaded liberal thoughts as well. The thing I don’t understand is that even through research and understanding why the church has a certain stance on things–and even agreeing that you could come to that conclusion through scripture ect–I STILL can’t believe it? I absolutely cannot–and yes I have tried through prayer and penance…
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Orionthehunter
Guest
What? Truth is truth. By definition, it is what it is. There is no right to change the truth just as there is no right to change the laws of physics. As God is unchanging, His Truth is unchanging.
The point of the thread is that the author of the news article in the original post seemed to think that liberals should leave the Church in protest. Some posters seem to advocate that they should change or leave.
I disagree w/ both schools of thought. Regarding the former, it is not a grave sin to hold opinions contrary to or not fully grasping/understanding the teachings of the Church. It is only a grave sin when we act on these converse opinions. For instance, an average Catholic (non-political leader) it is not a grave sin to not fully embrace the Church’s teaching on abortion so long as they don’t act on their opinion (by having an abortion or encouraging another of its rightness) or unequivocally reject the teaching. But it is a grave matter for a Catholic to leave the Church. As all of are called to bring people closer to Christ, we need to always invite and be welcoming for these whose conscience has been mis-formed by society and sin to come/ stay home in the Church. And while they are in the “wilderness” of dissension, we need to pray for the intercession of the Holy Spirit to penetrate their heart.
As a side note, we need to remember that we don’t have the omniscience of God to judge the person (even one aggressively advocating abortion rights). We can only judge their words and need to stay focused on that. For example, is it good to call a person a liar who lies? Doesn’t “liar” imply they lie always? So it is with a “liberal” who is dissenting from some of the Church’s teachings. Unless they reject all the Church teaches, they are still loved by God. We need to make it clear we love them too.
Regarding the latter, it is by staying in the Church that they have the best chance to find and discern the Teachings of Christ and God’s plan for them. We need to always be reaching out to them. And as laity or even a Priest, we have no authority to urge someone to leave the Church. Only a Bishop is charged with such authority. And a Bishop is to exercise excommunication judiciously and always with the caveat that they are always welcome to return if they repudiate the subject matter of their excommunication.
P.S. Your tone is not very Christian in attitude as I bolded above. I read through this thread and I don’t think that anyone deserved such a characterization.
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Then we have a disagreement of massive proportions. Are you sure that you’re not really an Episcopalian…? You sound like you’d fit in just fine over there…
Seriously, you cannot go overboard emphasizing just one aspect of God. Yes, God is Love, but God is also Truth, God is Rightous Anger, God is the ultimate Judge.
He may love us, but like the loving father that watches his children go astray…sometimes he bends us over his knee and gives us the belt…
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JamesG
Guest
Are you even catholic?
Do you not agree that Christ gave the keys to Peter? How can you reject the Gospel!!!
The message of Christ is that he gave the keys to Peter. He did not give them to you and he did not give them to women
JP2 made it very clear that the church does not have the authority to ordain women.
You have to have faith that he had a good reason for only choosing men. You have to have faith that he had knowledge and understand that transcends the human condition. When you do you will learn to accept the fact that he gave the church to men to protect as a father does his family. At the same time he gave the church to women (through the role of Mary) to nurture it as woman does with her family (via the role of a mother).
The problem today is that most see it as inequality, but the truth is that there is only equality in the church.
There is also no reason to suggest that a woman can’t have authority in the church without being a priest. Mother Teresa had NO need to be a Priest. She was blessed to find her role in the church and live it out to it fulfillment.
Why would a woman want to be a father of the church anyway? Why do they feel prevented from acting on their instincts as mothers toward the church? Perhaps there is a problem with their understanding of the church and its teachings. Perhaps they don’t understand why God made them a woman. I would suggest that women first read, “No Greater Love”. It is a book about Mother Teresa. That will help them understand how they can use the Gender that God gave them to its fullest capacity. It will help them realize that there are no limitations in the Catholic Church for women.
Women people demanding that the church to ordain women they have lost their perspective. That would be the same as demanding that your husband make you the Father. If I had a wife like that I would look at her and think.” hmm ok you have some problems and you are very confused”
Being a father isn’t a career choice. You are either a mother or you are a father. No exceptions.
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Ender
Guest
The Church claims that: “the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”
At the very least that claim needs to be either accepted or rejected; there really is no room to partially accept it, certainly not on any of the major teachings. One cannot reject specific teachings without rejecting the basis for which the Church makes them.
Another mistake is to suppose that what the Church teaches is developed by the pope and a handful of bishops and cardinals and then passed on to the rest of the Church rather like political parties developing their platforms. The reality is that: “The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, bit in the word of God which she has received in faith.” This is relevant to issues like women priests where JPII wrote that the Church has no authority to ordain women. It’s not an issue for the Church to decide. Again, one cannot reject this teaching without rejecting the basis for the claim the Church makes to be handing on the word of God.
At some point it should be clear that the rejection of what the Church teaches is really nothing less than a rejection of the Church itself. Which raises the question of why someone would want to belong to a Church whose central claims are rejected.
Ender
At the very least that claim needs to be either accepted or rejected; there really is no room to partially accept it, certainly not on any of the major teachings. One cannot reject specific teachings without rejecting the basis for which the Church makes them.
Another mistake is to suppose that what the Church teaches is developed by the pope and a handful of bishops and cardinals and then passed on to the rest of the Church rather like political parties developing their platforms. The reality is that: “The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, bit in the word of God which she has received in faith.” This is relevant to issues like women priests where JPII wrote that the Church has no authority to ordain women. It’s not an issue for the Church to decide. Again, one cannot reject this teaching without rejecting the basis for the claim the Church makes to be handing on the word of God.
At some point it should be clear that the rejection of what the Church teaches is really nothing less than a rejection of the Church itself. Which raises the question of why someone would want to belong to a Church whose central claims are rejected.
Ender
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JamesG
Guest
When did I ever say that there is a right to change the truth. The only one that has the right to interpret the truth is Peter. Christ gave him the keys to the truth.
We have no right to change the truth. We have no authority on earth. That is the flaw with the liberal perspective.
If you find my characterization troubling then perhaps you should ask yourself why? Does it make you feel guilty that perhaps you are trying to steal from Peter?
Please explain why you think I am not being very Christian? Isn’t accusing someone of not being Christian Not Christian in itself?!!!
You Know NOTHING about me. Furthermore, how is quoting the Gospel and then defending Peters right not Christian? I am defending the faith and defending Peters right to hold the keys. It is very troubling when I see Liberals who pretend to be Catholics but that have no respect for Peter and the Keys that God rightfully gave him. For some reason they feel as if they have an equal right to hold those keys.
Are you saying that I should not defend the faith and those who would try to corrupt the church with their own truths? False liberal truths? What can possibly motivate these people but their own selfishness and lack of humility?
Finally, do you reject the Passage I quoted? Is that not truth? Is it not a fact that that Christ gave the keys to Peter? Do you not agree that what is bound on earth by Peter is bound in heaven?
Your comment about truth reminded me of when Pilate stood between Jesus and an angry crowd, asked the question, “What is truth? (John 18:38)” Imagine his frustration as he really could find no fault in Jesus. Although Pilate was frustrated, it did not negate the truth. He was looking at the truth and that truth was Jesus.
Perhaps Liberals are just like Pilate. The church (the truth) is right in front of them. But they would rather focus on their selfish desires.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I must have totally missed the point of your rants.
Maybe I’ll ask the question which is the subject of hte thread. Do you think liberal Catholic laity should leave the Church as a form of protest to Church teaching on homosexuality as the columnist in the original post seemed to advocate? Do you think they should be kicked out?
By the way, by almost any definition, nearly everyone would describe my views as conservative. I fully aspire to assent to the Church and have no question about the issue of the authority of hte Magisterium. However, I don’t like being called a conservative as I avoid “labels” as they are usually filled w/ judgment and innuendo. Your choice of the words in your previous posts (“you people” as if they are some type of inferior human or generalizing that those who mistakenly advocate women ordination as being motivated by “selfish desires” belies your willingness to be judgmental.
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Jennifer123
Guest
Jesus understands our minds, He knows we may still have unbelief. See Mark 9:11-29, "24: Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
Jesus is clear, we must pray with faith, faith that He is Truth and will lead us into all Truth. We must pray with an expectation that He can do all things.
IMHO - keep persevering, reserve judgement, and keep praying for His illumination.
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