Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[patg]

JamesG:

Are you even catholic?

I was going to ask you the same thing…

I’m ready for you definition of “the truth of Christ”. You know, that “thing” I am trying to steal from someone.

From your posts, I assume it is every rule, dogma, discipline, every word of canon law, every Tradition, every tradition, every encyclical, every papal document, every word in the bible…

 

[lphelps]

Mijoy2:

I have a theory, Lazerlike42. It is because the vast majority of Catholics are unaware, for a variety of reasons, that the Catholic Church teaches that they are to obey teachings on matters of faith and morals. I know this is true with many of the people I know. I hear statements such as** I don’t believe in or support that teaching** or the Catholic Church is wrong on this/that matter.

This is why I think this article is a step in the right direction. We do not desire to lose a single person from the church. Articles such as this one gets the word (teaching) out that the Catholic Church calls us to obey. More importantly it gets the word out via the liberal themself (herself in this case). We may think that a posted speed limit sign is unreasonable in a particular area. But this reasoning doesn’t mean we can speed through it.

For those that read this article that are of the belief they can support these things and remain in good standing will be enlightened otherwise. Which, if they love the church, will cause them to pause and think. Then, hopefully, the decision they make will be the loving one. Which is what the church teaches.

What is being so terribly misunderstood is that the Catholic Church teaches love and from this love the doctrine flows. I have much sympothy because it took a long long time for this to penetrate this marble skull.

I think that when Catholics believe that they can arbitrarily play “create-a religion”, they may want to check around at other religions who are democratic and free form in nature. I have a feeling that many liberal Catholics believe that the church is a democracy and that they can vote on whether they like issues or not and resist the church and how it is run. The brutal reality is that the church is not a democracy. If it were, then we would vote on which priest or minsiter to select like many Protestant churches do. I also feel that people in the US resent the word “No”.

 

[JamesG]

Orionthehunter:

I must have totally missed the point of your rants.

Maybe I’ll ask the question which is the subject of hte thread. Do you think liberal Catholic laity should leave the Church as a form of protest to Church teaching on homosexuality as the columnist in the original post seemed to advocate? Do you think they should be kicked out?

By the way, by almost any definition, nearly everyone would describe my views as conservative. I fully aspire to assent to the Church and have no question about the issue of the authority of hte Magisterium. However, I don’t like being called a conservative as I avoid “labels” as they are usually filled w/ judgment and innuendo. Your choice of the words in your previous posts (“you people” as if they are some type of inferior human or generalizing that those who mistakenly advocate women ordination as being motivated by “selfish desires” belies your willingness to be judgmental.

I think this is how jesus would answer the question of Liberal Catholic laity.

24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants[d] of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

They already have a Judge. His name is Jesus.

We can only try our best to move the weeds to the side and prevent them from growing. We can never totally clear the fields of weeds. Only the angels can when christ returns.

 

[JamesG]

patg:

I was going to ask you the same thing…

I’m ready for you definition of “the truth of Christ”. You know, that “thing” I am trying to steal from someone.

From your posts, I assume it is every rule, dogma, discipline, every word of canon law, every Tradition, every tradition, every encyclical, every papal document, every word in the bible…

yes I am 100% catholic

Do you reject the quote I made from Gospel about how Jesus gave the key to Peter?

 

[Orionthehunter]

JamesG:

I think this is how jesus would answer the question of Liberal Catholic laity.

24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants[d] of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

They already have a Judge. His name is Jesus.

We can only try our best to move the weeds to the side and prevent them from growing. We can never totally clear the fields of weeds. Only the angels can when christ returns.

LOL I thought I asked a straight up question but I guess I have to infer from your last statement (bolded) that you think we should remove liberals from the Church. I’m kinda struck by how it is in conflict with the Scripture quote as I underlined as it seems Christ was pretty clear that it was He who was to direct their culling at harvest.

 

[patg]

JamesG:

yes I am 100% catholic

Do you reject the quote I made from Gospel about how Jesus gave the key to Peter?

I agree it is a quote from the gospel but there is no way to know if it is a quote from Jesus or how accurately it is retold (I know, you don’t want to hear this stuff).

It is certainly a statement of power and authority but many see it as something created by those who were on Peter’s side (as opposed to Paul or James or any of the others competing for control).

**What better way to consolidate one’s authority in a time of controversy than to have a quote that can’t be verified from several decades in the past and from a long dead leader - that places you in control! **It worked then and it works today. The politics of organizations is absolutely no different today and every religious leader has some sign from God placing them in charge. Maybe I’m a little cynical but people and the quest for power and authority haven’t changed much in 2000 years.

So that’s my take on it - I prefer to follow Jesus as the early Christians did, without the thousands of pages of laws, disciplines, regulations, without etc. His message was really pretty simple and very beautiful but it’s often very hard to find in any church.

And I don’t care if you, or any one else, wants to revoke my ability to pursue catholicism, bar the door to the church, or just not understand why I hang around. Like I said before, it’s between me and God and maybe you and I will be be in total agreement someday.

 

[rlg94086]

patg:

I agree it is a quote from the gospel but there is no way to know if it is a quote from Jesus or how accurately it is retold (I know, you don’t want to hear this stuff).

So that’s my take on it - I prefer to follow Jesus as the early Christians did, without the thousands of pages of laws, disciplines, regulations, without etc. His message was really pretty simple and very beautiful but it’s often very hard to find in any church.

Pat,

How do you reconcile these two paragraphs? You don’t know whether quotes from the Bible are from Jesus or how accurately His words are retold, but you want to follow his “pretty simple” message. Where do you find that message?

BTW…if you study the early Church, you will find that it was very Catholic, and I’m guessing you would disagree with many of their beliefs.

God Bless,

Robert

 

[patg]

rlg94086:

How do you reconcile these two paragraphs? You don’t know whether quotes from the Bible are from Jesus or how accurately His words are retold, but you want to follow his “pretty simple” message. Where do you find that message?

There is no problem here at all. Any serious study of the gospels reveals the common themes and those words and actions which stand out as truly unique to Jesus. Any number of scholars (some even on the pontifical biblical commission) have written on this subject . Even the church’s recent documents on biblical interpretation are supportive of it. I have no trouble at all forming an clear image of Jesus thanks to catholic scripture scholars.

BTW…if you study the early Church, you will find that it was very Catholic, and I’m guessing you would disagree with many of their beliefs.

Nope, the earlier, the better

 

[rlg94086]

What are the earliest writings you’ve been able to study?

patg:

There is no problem here at all. Any serious study of the gospels reveals the common themes and those words and actions which stand out as truly unique to Jesus. Any number of scholars (some even on the pontifical biblical commission) have written on this subject . Even the church’s recent documents on biblical interpretation are supportive of it. I have no trouble at all forming an clear image of Jesus thanks to catholic scripture scholars.

Nope, the earlier, the better

 

[Liberalsaved]

does a little dance

Looks like he’s mad as Hell and he isn’t going to take it anymore!

 

[Vonier]

patg:

I agree it is a quote from the gospel but there is no way to know if it is a quote from Jesus or how accurately it is retold (I know, you don’t want to hear this stuff).

It is certainly a statement of power and authority but many see it as something created by those who were on Peter’s side (as opposed to Paul or James or any of the others competing for control).

What better way to consolidate one’s authority in a time of controversy than to have a quote that can’t be verified from several decades in the past and from a long dead leader - that places you in control! It worked then and it works today. The politics of organizations is absolutely no different today and every religious leader has some sign from God placing them in charge. Maybe I’m a little cynical but people and the quest for power and authority haven’t changed much in 2000 years.

So that’s my take on it - I prefer to follow Jesus as the early Christians did, without the thousands of pages of laws, disciplines, regulations, without etc. His message was really pretty simple and very beautiful but it’s often very hard to find in any church.

And I don’t care if you, or any one else, wants to revoke my ability to pursue catholicism, bar the door to the church, or just not understand why I hang around. Like I said before, it’s between me and God and maybe you and I will be be in total agreement someday.

Pursuing Catholicism? How? Did you just refer to Jesus Christ as a “long dead leader”? You seem way, way past questioning some Church teachings.

 

[Penny_Plain]

JamesG:

Finally, do you reject the Passage I quoted? Is that not truth? Is it not a fact that that Christ gave the keys to Peter? Do you not agree that what is bound on earth by Peter is bound in heaven?

Surely different interpretations of it are possible, aren’t they?

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

Surely different interpretations of it are possible, aren’t they?

Sure, is each one correct?

 

[JamesG]

Orionthehunter:

LOL I thought I asked a straight up question but I guess I have to infer from your last statement (bolded) that you think we should remove liberals from the Church. I’m kinda struck by how it is in conflict with the Scripture quote as I underlined as it seems Christ was pretty clear that it was He who was to direct their culling at harvest.

I thought I gave a very direct and christian answer. Too bad you feel content in to laugh at it.

There is also nothing to infer from my statement. Why do you try to read into things that I write?

I agree with Jesus. “No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them”

This does not mean that we shouldn’t try to prevent more weeds from growing. It also doesn’t mean that we can’t protect the wheat from the weads. Lastly there is no reason to agrue that we can’t mark all the weeds for everyone to see.

 

[JamesG]

patg:

I agree it is a quote from the gospel but there is no way to know if it is a quote from Jesus or how accurately it is retold (I know, you don’t want to hear this stuff).

It is certainly a statement of power and authority but many see it as something created by those who were on Peter’s side (as opposed to Paul or James or any of the others competing for control).

What better way to consolidate one’s authority in a time of controversy than to have a quote that can’t be verified from several decades in the past and from a long dead leader - that places you in control! It worked then and it works today. The politics of organizations is absolutely no different today and every religious leader has some sign from God placing them in charge. Maybe I’m a little cynical but people and the quest for power and authority haven’t changed much in 2000 years.

So that’s my take on it - I prefer to follow Jesus as the early Christians did, without the thousands of pages of laws, disciplines, regulations, without etc. His message was really pretty simple and very beautiful but it’s often very hard to find in any church.

And I don’t care if you, or any one else, wants to revoke my ability to pursue catholicism, bar the door to the church, or just not understand why I hang around. Like I said before, it’s between me and God and maybe you and I will be be in total agreement someday.

If you follow the early church then I’m sorry, but you have no option but to show respect for peter. And here is why.

THE primacy of Peter is clearly noted in the Bible:

“And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock ‘Peter’ is Greek for ‘rock’] 1 will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 16:19).

“I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers” (Luke 22:33).

God sent an angel to Peter to announce the Resurrection of Jesus (Mark 6:7).

The risen Jesus first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34).

Peter headed the meeting which elected Matthias as replacement for Judas (Acts 1:13-26).

Peter led the apostles in preaching on Pentecost (Acts 2:14).

Peter led the meeting which decided on which terms Gentiles would be allowed into the Church (Acts 15).

Peter was the judge of Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11).

Jesus entrusted Peter with his flock, making him too a Good Shepherd (John 21:15-17).

Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3).

After his conversion Paul went to see Peter, the chief apostle (Gal. 1:18).

Throughout the New Testament, when the apostles are listed as a group, Peter’s name is always first. Sometimes it’s just "Peter and the twelve. "

Peter’s name is mentioned more often than the names of all the other apostles put together.

Furthermore, you can’t just pick and chose what you want to hear from the bible and ignore all that you feel like rejecting out of your own selfish desires.

 

[JamesG]

Vonier:

Pursuing Catholicism? How? Did you just refer to Jesus Christ as a “long dead leader”? You seem way, way past questioning some Church teachings.

I agree with you

The weeds in the field have chocked this one. All we can do is pray for her.

This is exactly why Liberals should not be allowed to enter the church. The fact is they pick and chose only what they want to believe in even when the truth is right in front of them.

All they want to do is promote relativism within the church. They think that everything is relative to their own interpretation. They have no respect for the truth even when it looks them right in the face. They only validate the credibility of the Gospel when they hear something that confirms their modern secular life and then they discredit everything else that is against it. The reason for this is that they don’t want to change. They don’t want to ever feel like they are wrong.

They are like Pilate, always thinking about their own power and how they can attain more. To quote what I said previously.

Liberal “Catholics” reminded me of when Pilate stood between Jesus and an angry crowd, asked the question, “What is truth? (John 18:38)” Imagine his frustration as he really could find no fault in Jesus. Although Pilate was frustrated, it did not negate the truth. He was looking at the truth and that truth was Jesus.

You only have to ask these Liberals one simple question. What fault do you find with the word of Jesus? The sad thing is that even when they can’t find any fault they resort to public opinion to validate their point of view. The sad thing is that this is exactly what happened to Jesus. Pilate used democracy to crucify Christ. Liberals want democracy in the church so they can do the same.

 

[Penny_Plain]

JamesG:

The weeds in the field have chocked this one. All we can do is pray for her.

Help me understand.

Are we liberal Catholics the weeds? Or are we the grain that’s being chocked by the weeds?

 

[JamesG]

Penny Plain:

Help me understand.

Are we liberal Catholics the weeds? Or are we the grain that’s being chocked by the weeds?

Perhaps I should of used the word poisoned and not chocked.

There are no “half weed, half wheat” hybrids. “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” 1John 5:12 You are either one or the other

Jesus was referring to a weed called a “darnel”, which looks exactly like wheat in its young stages and, in fact, only the expert can distinguish some species of this darnel from true wheat. Later on, the differences are remarkable. The darnel has far smaller seeds than wheat, and it is claimed that these seeds, when ground to flour, are poisonous, due perhaps to a particular fungus which develops in the seed itself

Don’t be so gullible to presume that all the members of your church are children of God. Jesus is discouraging people from inferring that if one is a member of church, such a person must be a child of God. Yes salvation occurs at a point in time and continues to eternity. But whether it actually occurred at the particular point in time when the person says it did, is debatable.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."1John 3:9,10

A weed may be growing next to a stalk of wheat and think it has a common destiny with the wheat. But its end is destruction. The weed is also harmful to the wheat, its roots trying to starve the wheat from its source. False brethren can even become institutional leaders and bring much harm to the maturity of the believers. In his final farewell, Paul speaks to the elders of the church at Ephesus.

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."Acts 20:29,30

 

[Penny_Plain]

JamesG:

Perhaps I should of used the word poisoned and not chocked.

There are no “half weed, half wheat” hybrids. “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” 1John 5:12 You are either one or the other

So “liberal Catholics” = poisonous weeds?

That’s all I’m asking.

 

[JamesG]

Penny Plain:

So “liberal Catholics” = poisonous weeds?

That’s all I’m asking.

Yes.
That is my perspective on it. I think Christ makes this very clear.

The weed is also harmful to the wheat, its roots trying to starve the wheat from its source.

Maybe you are a a child of God and just being starved by secularism. It is hard to tell because liberal could mean so many things.