S
SacredHeartFan
Guest
I think it would be nice but a bit too flashy for my taste.
This is my personal opinion. I believe that the fact that Vatican City is a sovereign state should be played up a little more. Since it obviously is a monarchy there is no reason for the pope not to appear as a monarch for state occasions, as do monarchs from other nations.It’s really good that he wanted to emphasize the shepard part of the papacy…but if we have learned anything from the last 40 years is not to go to far to one side or the other.
Let us be modern and traditional
I wouldn’t like a return of a pope that nobody can “touch”
but it would good that some things return to remind us that our pope is the VICAR OF CHRIST that he has authority like no one else…given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ.
and quoting what someone in another thread said:
“In the end of times when Jesus returns the Pope at the time will take off his crown and place it at the feet of Jesus.”
Actually it was not John Paul II who is responsible for the Vatican City State. That was an agreement between Pope Pius XII and Musolini. They created the modern sovereignty of Vatican City. Prior to that popes were virtually prisoners in the Vatican because the political alliances were very fluid.well now that your talking politics yes it would be good for the monarch being the pope should be more monarch looking
and that is one of those things that i mean…
we should be modern and traditional
before the tiara’s really just meant his papal power…but know since really JPII made the papacy a bit political it should act accordingly…
I’m educated in how the state of vatican city came about.Actually it was not John Paul II who is responsible for the Vatican City State. That was an agreement between Pope Pius XII and Musolini. They created the modern sovereignty of Vatican City. Prior to that popes were virtually prisoners in the Vatican because the political alliances were very fluid.
What John Paul II did was establish diplomatic relations with the United States for the first time in the history of the Vatican and the United States. There had never been ambassadors between the two nations. The USA did not acknowledge Vatican City as a sovereign nation, nor did it acknowledge Vatican Citizenship, much less open the possibility for Catholics to seek Vatican citizenship without losing their American citizenship.
But that’s a far cry from making the papacy more political. The papacy has had its peaks and valleys in the political arena. Since Paul VI it started to rise again, thanks to the work done by Pius XII.
JR![]()
I see what you’re saying more clearly. You’re right. He was more connected.I’m educated in how the state of vatican city came about.
by JPII i meant he was more outspoken…met with more leaders…tried to make peace with nations (religions) etc…
Excellent meditation! I believe you are asking the right questions and I will definitely use your thoughts to enhance my own meditation on the subject. Thank you.I see what you’re saying more clearly. You’re right. He was more connected.
As I read this thread I’m wondering about something else that is a spin off this topic.
I’m wondering what our own motives as Catholics are to see the papacy in all of its material glory. Is it that we want to proclaim the presence of Christ’s Kingdom on Earth or is it that we want a gratuitous show of power?
Sometimes we have to examine our motives. I can only examine mine. I know that at times, especially when speaking to non Catholics, I love to show the grandeur of the Church and her power. Then I am ashamed. Becasue the greatness of the Church is in her holiness, beginning with her head. It shames me that I would want others to admire the Church’s magnificence rather than her sanctity.
When this happens, I have to take a step back and examine my conscience. Often this is just a projection of my own pride, my own desire to control, my lust for that which is worldly. When I take inventory of these faults, I feel sad.
The Church is not about my desire for power, greatness, recognition, prestige or lust. The Church is about Christ’s holiness, man’s salvation, God’s mercy, the eternal covenant between God and Israel into which we are brought through Christ, redesigning an old covenant into a new one that includes us too.
The Italians got it right when they lovingly nicknamed the successor of Peter as Papa (Daddy). To them he was not a monarch, he was their father. He gave them life, a life that their biological parents could not give them. He gave them a direct link back to Christ the source of eternal life.
When we think about what the Pope should wear or not wear, are we thinking about the holiness of the Church, the life that Christ gives through the Church and how the Pope is ther person whom Christ called to feed his flock with his holiness and his life or are we thinking about the splendor of majesty for its own sake?
Before we ask the Pope to dress up as a monarch, let us ask ouselves what our motives are. Let us examine the holiness of the Church and her head and think how this holiness can best be brought into the world today, with all of its complexities and issues that are different from those of yesteryear.
Most of all, let us desire that our pope and us, reflect the humility of Christ on the Cross. Because today’s world is very much in need of this image. The media does enough to promote the image of beauty and glamour that leads nowhere.
The Church’s glamour and beauty must speak louder and draw the attention to the cross where the King of the Jews is waiting to be loved and to love. I wonder if a crown of thorns would be a more suitable tiara. This is just a metaphore, but my mediation is real. What will bring men to the King of Kings?
Fraternally,
JR![]()
Thank you for thinking me enlightened and modern. I truly hope that I am. The model of Church that a papal tiara represents, a triumphant model, may have been useful and valid in a previous age when people were more in awe of such trappings and looked to the Church to provide them with government and an orderly cival society. Very few people look to the Church to provide such a service today and the Church, herself, would be reluctant to take on such a burden. The Church has defined itself and expressed itself to the world using a variety of models during its long history. The triumphant model is only one such model. I believe that in our present age the triumphant model of Church would be farcical, not only to most Christians but to most non Christians as well, and would blind them to the message of Jesus and the Gospel. I believe most Catholics have come to recognize that though the Vatican is a temporal power, the Church is not. Indeed, the power of the Church, as Joseph Stalin did not understand in his famous quip concerning how many army divisions the Pope had, lies in her spiritual strength and her ability to pursuade through moral conviction rather than force of arms. If the Pope chose to wear a papal tiara, then so be it, but what would it mean? What would it point to? Would it be an accurate expression of how the Church sees herself in the modern age? I don’t think so, but perhaps you could convince me.Ah, ok. And your enlightened, modern mind knows much better than the hundreds of years that the tiara was used to show the faithful that the Vicar of Christ also has temporal power (he still does!) in addition to spiritual power.
Firstly modernism is the the “compendium of all heresies,”Thank you for thinking me enlightened and modern. I truly hope that I am. The model of Church that a papal tiara represents, a triumphant model, may have been useful and valid in a previous age when people were more in awe of such trappings and looked to the Church to provide them with government and an orderly cival society. Very few people look to the Church to provide such a service today and the Church, herself, would be reluctant to take on such a burden. The Church has defined itself and expressed itself to the world using a variety of models during its long history. The triumphant model is only one such model. I believe that in our present age the triumphant model of Church would be farcical, not only to most Christians but to most non Christians as well, and would blind them to the message of Jesus and the Gospel. I believe most Catholics have come to recognize that though the Vatican is a temporal power, the Church is not. Indeed, the power of the Church, as Joseph Stalin did not understand in his famous quip concerning how many army divisions the Pope had, lies in her spiritual strength and her ability to pursuade through moral conviction rather than force of arms. If the Pope chose to wear a papal tiara, then so be it, but what would it mean? What would it point to? Would it be an accurate expression of how the Church sees herself in the modern age? I don’t think so, but perhaps you could convince me.
I posted earlier something that Christ said to Mother Teresa in 1946, which Pope Pius XII, the Archbishop of Calcutta, Paul VI and John Paul II all believed.Firstly modernism is the the “compendium of all heresies,”
to quote Pope PiusX
and im sure you wouldn’t want to be looked as a heretic…so don’t be proud because someone called you moder (just opinion…not judging you)
next… the church has always had its spiritual strength from her ability to persuade through moral conviction as you put it…the
crown has not been used as a kids toys that look shiny…that the (sarcastic)>>>>“Dumb people in the middle ages” said ooo look at the popes crown i think we should follow him…thats silly
Reintroducing the tiara after only being gone for 40 years woudn’t be that bad…people (the media) would at least still remember that this is nothing NEW in church history…also reintoducing it doesn’t mean that thwe church now thinks its in a higher position than it was before…because it really doesn’t higher or lower in its Glory because its the Church of God…
Again the external things that have defined the Catholic Church is one of the things that seperates us from protestants…
For truly… to quote Paul VI “the smoke of satan has enter into the church”
Again like i said its just external things not necessary for the faith but useful just like the beautiful churches statues vestmants etc…
surely even if we returned to the underground church that is being persecuted and martyred this would not diminsh the glory of the church because we are glorified in Christ Jesus and not in our proudful ways thinking about what the world thinks of us…amen
I realize I cut a lot from this quote, but I wanted to focus on the primary message. Pope John Paul I made a powerful statement when he chose the miter over the tiara. Never mind that the tiara was probably very uncomfortable to wear.… the greatness of the Church is in her holiness, beginning with her head…
The Church is not about my desire for power, greatness, recognition, prestige or lust. The Church is about Christ’s holiness, man’s salvation, God’s mercy, the eternal covenant between God and Israel into which we are brought through Christ, redesigning an old covenant into a new one that includes us too…
When we think about what the Pope should wear or not wear, are we thinking about the holiness of the Church, the life that Christ gives through the Church and how the Pope is the person whom Christ called to feed his flock with his holiness and his life or are we thinking about the splendor of majesty for its own sake?
Most of all, let us desire that our pope and us, reflect the humility of Christ on the Cross. Because today’s world is very much in need of this image. The media does enough to promote the image of beauty and glamor that leads nowhere…
What will bring men to the King of Kings?
JR![]()
The crown of thorns was uncomfortable to wear.I realize I cut a lot from this quote, but I wanted to focus on the primary message. Pope John Paul I made a powerful statement when he chose the miter over the tiara. Never mind that the tiara was probably very uncomfortable to wear.
Jesus set aside the glory of heaven to walk among His people. Jesus touched the untouchable. He called his Apostles to walk in his footsteps. Do we really want an untouchable pope? Jesus commissioned the Apostles to take His message into the world. “The Church is not about my desire for power, greatness, recognition, prestige or lust.” Do we honor saints for their worldly power or for their actions, for their reaching into the lives of those whom the world rejects?
You mean, being called “enlightened” and “modern” is not a compliment? Ah, well then, let us all proudly embrace our ignorance and neophobia!Firstly modernism is the the “compendium of all heresies,”
to quote Pope PiusX
and im sure you wouldn’t want to be looked as a heretic…so don’t be proud because someone called you moder (just opinion…not judging you)
next… the church has always had its spiritual strength from her ability to persuade through moral conviction as you put it…the
crown has not been used as a kids toys that look shiny…that the (sarcastic)>>>>“Dumb people in the middle ages” said ooo look at the popes crown i think we should follow him…thats silly
Reintroducing the tiara after only being gone for 40 years woudn’t be that bad…people (the media) would at least still remember that this is nothing NEW in church history…also reintoducing it doesn’t mean that thwe church now thinks its in a higher position than it was before…because it really doesn’t higher or lower in its Glory because its the Church of God…
Again the external things that have defined the Catholic Church is one of the things that seperates us from protestants…
For truly… to quote Paul VI “the smoke of satan has enter into the church”
Again like i said its just external things not necessary for the faith but useful just like the beautiful churches statues vestmants etc…
surely even if we returned to the underground church that is being persecuted and martyred this would not diminsh the glory of the church because we are glorified in Christ Jesus and not in our proudful ways thinking about what the world thinks of us…amen
Considering the flak he’s already gotten over his red shoes and the brief showing of the red ermine hat, I would say there is not a chance that he’ll be donning the tiara any time soon.The crown of thorns was uncomfortable to wear.
Jesus NEVER set aside the glory of Heaven as Jesus Christ is both true God and true Man.
Having the pope wear a tiara does not mean that he is untouchable.
Having the pope wear a tiara is not about showing off or worldly power. It is actually an act of humility to accept that it is God’s Will for that particular priest to be the pope and to lead the Catholic world. The tiara helps to show that he is not merely a ‘bishop of bishops’ but that he is truly the Head Servant of God.
This is an excellent point.Besides, didn’t he remove the tiara from the Papal coat of arms, replacing it with a miter? Far more shepherd than monarch, I think he sees the miter as more emblematic of his office than the tiara.