Should Pope Benedict start wearing the papal tiara?

[sancte_joseph]

My last point is that I believe that the Church, in some ways, should be deeply concerned with how the world sees us. We must remember that we are part of the world as yeast in the bread or as salt in the earth. If the Church is not reflecting the Gospel of Jesus in its very life and love of the world, then the world will see the Church as simply one more cynical institution out to bamboozle gullible people with pie in the sky promises that it doesn’t really believe in. We have been very fortunate in our popes during the past century and I believe God has truly blessed the Church in the shepherds we have received. The world does not see the Church as the institution I described above and much of that vision has to do with the genuine love and humility our popes have shown for the people of God and the modern world we inhabit. Papal tiaras have had nothing to do with that.

Well know you mixing the external things in to the internal things of the church as if to say that the external things diminish from whats spiritual…ok…the church has been succesful with the tiara or not with great churches or not…my point is not to conform to what the world thinks of us…we (the people…clergy and lay) have the duty to evangalize the worlds and if the pope wears a tiara or not doesn’t diminish that duty…my point is the tiara be used for its caholic people not for the outside world…

 

[Lepanto]

Pope John Paul I made a powerful statement when he chose the miter over the tiara.

Miters were worn by previous popes, too. They were never mutually exclusive.

Do we really want an untouchable pope?

No, we don’t, but a rock-star pope may not be the best model either. And how exactly does a tiara make a pope “untouchable?”

 

[Lepanto]

What John Paul II did was establish diplomatic relations with the United States for the first time in the history of the Vatican and the United States. There had never been ambassadors between the two nations. The USA did not acknowledge Vatican City as a sovereign nation, nor did it acknowledge Vatican Citizenship, much less open the possibility for Catholics to seek Vatican citizenship without losing their American citizenship.

But please bear in mind that many nations recognized Vatican City-State long before the US did. The world does not revolve around the United States!

 

[Lepanto]

The crown of thorns was uncomfortable to wear.

Jesus NEVER set aside the glory of Heaven as Jesus Christ is both true God and true Man.

Having the pope wear a tiara does not mean that he is untouchable.

Having the pope wear a tiara is not about showing off or worldly power. It is actually an act of humility to accept that it is God’s Will for that particular priest to be the pope and to lead the Catholic world. The tiara helps to show that he is not merely a ‘bishop of bishops’ but that he is truly the Head Servant of God.

I agree. I also sense a tinge of anti-clericalism in some of the anti-tiara arguments. Many of these arguments, if followed to their logical conclusion, would have all of our priests trading in their clerics for khaki pants and polo shirts.

 

[sancte_joseph]

Miters were worn by previous popes, too. They were never mutually exclusive.

No, we don’t, but a rock-star pope may not be the best model either. And how exactly does a tiara make a pope “untouchable?”

EXACTLY!

how does a tiara make a pope untouchable…i think people have this meantality where they can’t stay in the middle of the road with the past and the future the old and the new…we have seen how going to far to one side(modernizing) hurts the people and some people rebel (traditionalist)and go to far to the other side

COMPROMISE!

 

[JReducation]

[pic]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BXVI_CoA_like_gfx_PioM.svg[/pic]

This is the current papal coat of arms. It is obvious that Benedict XVI is following John Paul I’s idea of accenting the role of bishop and pastor.

The reason the tiara remains on the Vatican’s flag has nothing to do with the pope. The Vatican’s flag is the flag of a nation.

For example, I live in Florida. Our State Flag has God on it. Does that mean that we are a godly state? Not necessarily. But you don’t change the flag of a sovereign state.

JR

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree. I also sense a tinge of anti-clericalism in some of the anti-tiara arguments. Many of these arguments, if followed to their logical conclusion, would have all of our priests trading in their clerics for khaki pants and polo shirts.

I’m not following your sensors.

Who implied the Pope shouldn’t wear a white cassock, or shouldn’t wear a triple-banded mitre? We’re discussing mitre vs. a tiara, unless I’ve missed the posts you’re referring to?

It is as if I were to write that priests should wear clericals, and not a power suit like the corporate leaders wear, because the nature of the priestly office is a fundamentally different kind of leadership and authority, and then someone would “sense” an anti-clerical attitude whose logical conculsion was that priests should wear khaki pants and polo shirts. I don’t follow.

 

[JReducation]

I agree. I also sense a tinge of anti-clericalism in some of the anti-tiara arguments. Many of these arguments, if followed to their logical conclusion, would have all of our priests trading in their clerics for khaki pants and polo shirts.

I don’t get that feeling from any of these posts either. What I have seen is people saying that the tiara is not necessary in this day and age. But that’s not anti-clericalism. The tiara has nothing to do with the priesthood.

I’m a little lost here too. Did you see something that I missed?

JR

 

[sancte_joseph]

i have supported the tiara through out this thread and im going to make a final point…

Tiara= not neccesary but good symbol of the popes position in the church

If the tiara doesn’t create a greater respect for the pope it isn’t needed…the pope is…

vicar of christ
supreme shepard
and servant of the servants of God

I would like the tiara on the pope if for only the coronation…but don’t care if the popes decided never to wear it…that just creates another tradition of popes wearing miters with 3 stripes

anyway good discusion and may God Bless you all abundently

 

[BennyBoy89]

I agree. I also sense a tinge of anti-clericalism in some of the anti-tiara arguments. Many of these arguments, if followed to their logical conclusion, would have all of our priests trading in their clerics for khaki pants and polo shirts.

So the people who prefer the miter (symbol of spiritual authority) over the tiara (symbol of secular authority), are opposed to clericals?

I know I certainly am not.

Generalizations are never a good idea… we all know what happens when you assume…

 

[Aramis]

The Triple Tiara was a representation of the Papal role in Recognizing Divine Right Absolute Monarchies. Of which, only one remains: Vatican.

The other Divine Right Monarchies are no longer absolute, and most no longer are even monarchies.

Spain is still a Divine Right Monarchy, but is a constitutional republic in practice, with the divine right king as head of state, but not of government.

Portugul, France, Ireland: Still countries, no longer monarchies.
The UK, Sweeden, Denmark: No longer Catholic, no longer absolute monarchies
Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire: No longer extant; various successor states exist but are non-monarchial.
Russia: ceased being a monarchy in 1917… but its public is talking about possibly resurrecting the monarchy. Current known heir is a Duchess who has never even been to Russia…

The Tiara is a symbol of a role that no longer exists, and was always purely civil in its use: validating kings.

 

[BennyBoy89]

Aramis - Is Monaco an absolute monarchy?

 

[Aramis]

Aramis - Is Monaco an absolute monarchy?

No, based upon the French picking the candidates for head of government, then the Prince picking which of the three.

It’s a constitutional monarchy, according to the CIA. It also has a legislative branch, which does not include the monarch.

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mn.html

 

[Dr_Chasuble]

I’ve come late to this discussion but I fear it’s too late to revive the use of the tiara. When Pope John Paul II followed his short lived predecessor in refusing a coronation, that was effectively the end of the tiara. Benedict cannot revive its use now, since he was not crowned with it at the start of his pontificate and it is so long since it was last seen (during the early part of Paul VI’s reign) that modern people simply would not understand why the pope had suddenly started wearing such strange headgear. I fear it would attract ridicule.

But I DO think you can make a case for reinstating the sedia gestatoria. Its modern equivalent, the so-called ‘Pope Mobile’ is ugly and undignified. The Sedia Gestatoria, on the other hand, is a most dignified and appropriate means of showing the Holy Father to his flock. I’m guessing, however, that the security guys at the Vatican favour the Pope Mobile because of its capacity to move the Pope rapidly away from danger, should it arise. Many of us will recall the way in which J-P II was rushed away after being shot in S. Peter’s Square. Had he been on the Sedia Gestatoria, I imagine he would have died of his wounds.

Logic and modernity would seem to dicatate that both the tiara and the sedia gestatoria will remain in the museum, relics of a grand ceremonial now abandoned forever, in spite of Benedict XVI’s modest efforts to bring a little sartorial dignity back to the church.