Should protestants find their way into the CC now that they know that their religion was made from men who rebelled against the Church

[josephback]

As for being taught a lie, I didn’t know that accepting Jesus as your personal savior, being a new person, living your life for Christ, humbling yourself, ministering to others, making disciples, worshiping no one but God, was all a lie…that is all my Church has ever taught me. I have never heard one anti-Catholic statement ever made in my church.

The doctrines of imputed righteousness and Justification by faith alone are lies. That doesn’t mean everything in Protestantism is. The notion of humbling yourself is good. Ministering to others, making disciples, and worshiping God alone are all good. As a former Protestant, one of the hardest things for me was separating the truth from the error - its all mixed together and there’s no all encompassing Church to determine what is right. For instance, are non-trinitarians Christian or not? Is communion just a symbol, or something more? Who determines what true and Christian belief is? Without the Church there’s no authority.

 

[hn160]

The doctrines of imputed righteousness and Justification by faith alone are lies. That doesn’t mean everything in Protestantism is. The notion of humbling yourself is good. Ministering to others, making disciples, and worshiping God alone are all good. As a former Protestant, one of the hardest things for me was separating the truth from the error - its all mixed together and there’s no all encompassing Church to determine what is right. For instance, are non-trinitarians Christian or not? Is communion just a symbol, or something more? Who determines what true and Christian belief is? Without the Church there’s no authority.

Can you back up your notion of lies thar Protestants or Lutherans have or are they just your way of becoming Roman Catholic?

 

[john_aurelius]

The doctrines of imputed righteousness and Justification by faith alone are lies. QUOTE]

This is what I meant… lies are when you know what you’re saying is not the truth. Whereas, Protestants are attempting to tell the truth.

If you think they’re wrong, as you are entiltled to, then correct them but you shouldn’t accuse them of lying.

 

[Cat]

My question is why would they feel that they have to “come home” to the CC.

After all, they are just as Christian by virtue of their baptism in Christ and use of the Trinitarian formula.

This morning, I went to a Communion service of the Presbyterian Church of Australia. It was just as spiritual and moving in its Liturgy of the Word and the Lord’s Supper.

Maybe it would be better to see other Christian denominations as allies rather than at best competitors and worst heretics who are damning their congregations for eternity.

There is only One Church, for a long time we have recognised the Orthodox as part of this same church, surely we have enough graciousness to realise that other non-Catholic denominations can be just as Christian as the CC?

Why do we need organisational unity? just as evangelical theology overlaps several denominations, and Charismatic theology also, can’t CHRISTIAN theology, love and virtues also?

The Catholic Church is full of teachings and prayers for unity of all Christians.

The Creed says that we believe in “ONE holy catholic Church.”

In John 17, Jesus prayed that we might be ONE.

From a practical point of view, I think that we would have a lot more “clout” in the world if we were unified.

Keep in mind that although there are quite a few Protestants who tolerate and accept and even embrace Catholics, many non-Catholic Christians and churches do NOT tolerate or accept and certainly do not embrace the Catholic Church. Many non-Catholic Christians and their churches believe that the Catholic Church is a man-made cultish organization that is opposed to the Gospel.

I don’t think that it is likely that the various churches will see each other as “allies,” and even if we see each other as “allies,” what matters is, “Can we work together to teach and preach the Kingdom of God and bring about His good works here on this earth?”

Heck, we can’t even defeat abortion in the United States! For many years, Protestants did not join in the protest against abortion, and one of the main reasons for that was because many Protestants refused to cooperate or associate with the Catholics! When we lived in North Carolina, we were active in anti-abortion activities, and constantly urged our Protestant pastor to take the lead and get involved. He told us outright that he didn’t want to ally himself with Catholics! But finally, in the late 1980s, he attended an anti-abortion event, and that’s when the rest of the congregation stepped up and started getting involved.

Thank God for two Protestants. Dr. James Dobson and his Focus on the Family organization was anti-abortion from the very beginning, and Dr. Dobson took an active role in speaking out against and working against abortion, even working with Catholics! For quite a few years, other Protestants ignored this “politicizing of the Gospel”, but eventualy his tenacity won out, and many evangelical Christians realized the horror of abortion and joined Dr. Dobson (and all those Catholics!) Dr. Dobson has often praised Catholics for leading the way courageously in the fight against abortion, and he has chastized Protestants for lagging behind.

Another Protestant group that got involved early, back in the 1970s, in the fight against abortion was Last Days Ministries. This Texas organization was the home organization of Christian rock singer Keith Green, and also the wonderful Christian rock group, 2nd Chapter of Acts. BOTH of these were anti-Catholic, sadly. BUT they took a bold, outspoken stand against abortion, going against Protestant “norms” and urging young people to join them in the fight against the great evil of abortion. I credit this organization with turning me anti-abortion; up until I read Last Days pamphlets about abortion, I believed that it was better for an unwanted child to be aborted than be born into a world that didn’t want him/her. Boy, did Last Days Ministries ever turn me around, and make me an activist back when I was younger and had no children yet!

But back to the topic–I suggest that anyone who is interested in unity between the Catholic Church and Protestant sects should read Being the Body, by Chuck Colson, who along with Father Richard Neuhas, founded Evangelicals and Catholics Together. This wonderful book, written by a Protestant, was one of the reasons why I decided to become Catholic. It’s a great analysis of the possibility of unity between all Christians.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The Lutheran Church does not protest the Roman Catholic Church, we never called ourselves Protestant, that a charge that that the Catholic Church labeled us, We always considered ourselves as Evangelical Catholic. Our Lutheran Confession confess what The Church Is: VIII. [What Is the Church?]
1 Properly speaking, the church is the assembly of saints and true believers. However, since in this life many hypocrites and evil persons are mingled with believers, it is allowable to use the sacraments even when they are administered by evil men, according to the saying of Christ, “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat,” etc. (Matt. 23:2). 2 Both the sacraments and the Word are effectual by reason of the institution and commandment of Christ even if they are administered by evil men.
3 Our churches condemn the Donatists and others like them who have denied that the ministry of evil men may be used in the church and who have thought the ministry of evil men to be unprofitable and without effect.

Tappert, Theodore G.: The Augsburg Confession : Translated from the Latin. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 2000, c1959, S. 33
As far as the Papal Office goes, Lutheran take notice of what the Pope says, but we look on him as the Bishop of Rome. The biggest problem is the Infallibility of the Pope, there is nowhere in Scripture that this is found.
It seems that the Catholics do more protesting about Lutherans than Lutherans do about Catholics when we have more in common than with Calvinist and Episcopalians.

If you profess the Creed, the Creed belongs to the CC. no one leaving the Church that construct the Creed has right to it take it out of the Church and then profess outside of her. It is her Creed. This is wrong. Thou shall not steal. Take what does not belong to you is stealing.

 

[JRKH]

My question is why would they feel that they have to “come home” to the CC.

After all, they are just as Christian by virtue of their baptism in Christ and use of the Trinitarian formula.

This morning, I went to a Communion service of the Presbyterian Church of Australia. It was just as spiritual and moving in its Liturgy of the Word and the Lord’s Supper.

Maybe it would be better to see other Christian denominations as allies rather than at best competitors and worst heretics who are damning their congregations for eternity.

There is only One Church, for a long time we have recognised the Orthodox as part of this same church, surely we have enough graciousness to realise that other non-Catholic denominations can be just as Christian as the CC?

Why do we need organisational unity? just as evangelical theology overlaps several denominations, and Charismatic theology also, can’t CHRISTIAN theology, love and virtues also?

You raise many good points above and indeed we need to foster respect for our seperated brethren and embrace that which is good in their communities, however this does not mean we should simply “live and let live” - that thinking was a false notion of the “spirit of Vat II” for error exists and we need to learn our faith so that we can intelligently discuss these things with non-catholics or at least be able to put them in touch with those who can.

In regards to the Bolded section of your post, I have given this much thought since I often discuss such things with non-Catholic Christians and have come to this conclusion.
All True Christians should seek and even been driven to seek, unity for this is what Jesus and tha Apostles pray for and exhort us to in the Scriptures.
True seeking of a unity that makes us “one in Christ”, “united in one mind”, one as Christ and the Father are one", etc, would just naturally generate the types of visible and authortative offices that we see in the Catholic Church for the preservation and promulgation of the Truths of the Gospel.
So - the “Why do we need organizational Unity” question is answerd, because it best fulfills Christ’s prayer for unity contained in John 17:20-21

Peace
James

 

[gcnuss]

If you profess the Creed, the Creed belongs to the CC. no one leaving the Church that construct the Creed has right to it take it out of the Church and then profess outside of her. It is her Creed. This is wrong. Thou shall not steal. Take what does not belong to you is stealing.

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth?”

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God?”

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life?”

I certainly hope not because these are confessions of any Christian. The history of the Church before the early sixteenth century is the history of all Christians. If I were to become estranged from my family our shared ancestry would still be mine. It is the same with the church. Even though we are, sadly, separated, we share a common origin and I am convinced that realizing that is a key to eventual reconciliation, something for which we all should pray.

 

[babylonsfalling]

No, it is not an official denomination, but rather, it is a term used to describe a number of Protestant denominations that support a certain set of beliefs and practices.

The National Association of Evangelicals has posted a Statement of Faith that sums up what evangelical Protestant churches believe. Here is a link to that Statement of Faith.

nae.net/about-us/statement-of-faith

The denominations that usually consider themselves evangelical are most Baptists, the Evangelical Free churches, Evangelical Covenant churches, the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal churches, the Christian churches, Churches of Christ (not United Church of Christ), and Disciples of Christ, and many of the non-denominational fellowships and churches.

There are other groups of Protestants, e.g, the Mainline Protestants are the older denominations, and most of these do not consider themselves “evangelical.” These denominations include Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Congregational, United Church of Christ, Episcopalians (and Anglicans).

Another group would be the Fundamentalist Protestant denominations. Many evangelical Protestant denominations accept the Five Basic Fundamentals of the Christian faith and so could be considered “Fundamentalists.” The difference is that Fundamentalist denominations are generally “separatist” that do not associate or cooperate with Christians outside of their denomination. Evangelicals do associate and cooperate with Christians outside of their denomination.

EVERYTHING that I have said above is a generalization and there are always, ALWAYS exceptions! There are Baptist denominations that are NOT evangelical! There are mainline denominations that ARE evangelical! There are Fundamentalist groups that are NOT separatists! etc. Please do not assume that my summary holds true in all situations, because it does NOT!

Also, I have left out quite a few Protestant groups, e.g., the various Pentecostal denominations other than the Assemblies of God. These denominations falls into all kinds of categories.

Also, I have left out the various ethnic Protestant denominations ,e.g., the various African American denominations. I have very little knowledge of these groups.

I have left out groups like the Friends (Quakers) and the Salvation Army, and the Mennonites. I am not sure where these groups place themselves.

I have left out the Seventh Day Adventists. This group is troublesome. Some Protestants consider it a cult, while others welcome them as a Christian group. I am not sure.

Finally, I have left out the groups that most Protestants consider “cults,’ including the LDS (Mormons), Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientist, and the Unitarians.” Sometimes I see these groups described as Protestant, but everything that I was taught growing up Protestant would say, “NO, these groups are NOT Protestant and they are not even Christian.”

I hope this is helpful to answering your question. It really has nothing to do with the topic, but perhaps it would help the OP to understand that Protestantism is much more complex than he/she apparently thinks it is.

The reason I was asking is because you applied those anti Catholic beliefs to “evangelical protestants” which is a term/group that I’ve never heard of before and in my experience very few people, evangelicals included are into the type of beliefs described in your first post…

In fact, they consider these men heroes of the faith because they had the courage to speak out against a Babylonian mystery cult that worshipped a goddess instead of God, added the burden of works to faith, re-sacrificed the Lord Jesus over and over again, and inserted pagan rituals such as eating flesh and drinking blood to Christian gatherings.

They may disagree with parts of Catholicism but not the Jack Chick comic book stuff in the above paragraph. And by “they” I mean folks I’ve known who’ve described themselves as evangelical. I HAVE met the types that DO believe in the comic book stuff from Chick and they were among the evangelical crowd but my understanding of your original post was that the comic book stuff was predominant when it’s actually a micro percentage. And to be honest, I’ve always noticed that a large percentage of those types were actually ex catholics, apparently on a quest to evil-ize their former Church so they can have a better reason for leaving it.

In fact, do you realize that most evangelical Protestants would deny that Christianity is a “religion?” Evangelical Protestants object to the word “religion” to describe Biblical Christianity. To them, Christianity is a Person, Jesus Christ, and our faith in Him.

They DO seem to have a problem with the word “religion” despite the fact that James used the word in clear reference to Christianity. I believe religion can be bad when it becomes too dogmatic, too ritualistic, too ceremonial, AND when a person becomes more attuned to those things than to God. That’s something that would vary from one individual to the next however.

Evangelicals seem to presume that any of those things automatically create negative, ritualistic religiosity in everyone, which is wrong. And some evangelicals just seem to like looking down their noses at other Churches and use religiosity as a means to that end.

 

[Cat]

The reason I was asking is because you applied those anti Catholic beliefs to “evangelical protestants” which is a term/group that I’ve never heard of before and in my experience very few people, evangelicals included are into the type of beliefs described in your first post…

They may disagree with parts of Catholicism but not the Jack Chick comic book stuff in the above paragraph. And by “they” I mean folks I’ve known who’ve described themselves as evangelical. I HAVE met the types that DO believe in the comic book stuff from Chick and they were among the evangelical crowd but my understanding of your original post was that the comic book stuff was predominant when it’s actually a micro percentage. And to be honest, I’ve always noticed that a large percentage of those types were actually ex catholics, apparently on a quest to evil-ize their former Church so they can have a better reason for leaving it.

I think you’re largely right, although it depends on the age of the evangelicals. I’m 54. When I and my husband were growing up, Jack T. Chick was NOT considered a quack or a hack. Many evangelical Christians loved his tracts and used them in their daily witness. The type of teaching in his tracts was commonly accepted in evangelical churches. Mine (a Conference Baptist church) was a little less vitriolic because we had a pastor who reached out and became friends with various Catholic priests in our city. But my husband’s large Assemblies of God church was quite anti-Catholic, and Jack T. Chick was considered mainstream.

Now things have changed in many of the evangelical church denominations. If you read Christianity Today, the magazine of the evangelical Protestant movement, you will see many articles by and about Catholics, and there seems to be a general acceptance of the Catholic Church as a true Christian church. Also, the intellectual Chuck Colson has done a great deal to break down barriers between Protestants and Catholics with his organization, Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Finally, the pro-life movement has brought Catholics and Protestants together.

However, there are still quite a few evangelical leaders and organizations/churches that do NOT accept that Catholics are Christians. J.I. Packer is among the most respected and loved evangelical teachers, but he teaches that ALL images are evil. He has a tremendous following. R.C. Sproul is an excellent Reformed pastor and teacher, and he is more knowledgeable about the Catholic Church than most Catholics (we’ve never heard him mistate any Catholic teaching). But he teaches that the Catholic Church is in error.

So like I said, it depends on the age of the evangelical. Younger evangelicals who do not follow Packer or Sproul are more likely to be Catholic-friendly. Older evangelicals may seem friendly on the surface, but watch out! Many of them still believe in the old Jack T. Chick teachings!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth?”

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God?”

Are you saying that non-Catholics cannot confess that they “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life?”

I certainly hope not because these are confessions of any Christian. The history of the Church before the early sixteenth century is the history of all Christians. If I were to become estranged from my family our shared ancestry would still be mine. It is the same with the church. Even though we are, sadly, separated, we share a common origin and I am convinced that realizing that is a key to eventual reconciliation, something for which we all should pray.

I am glad you do confess these but don’t use this to acuse me of it. Are you saying you have the right to steal what doesnt belong to you? you know that the Creed belongs to the CC. teh Church built it for the people inside the Church and not to those outside of her.

 

[CMatt25]

Not at all if their belief and faith is Jesus has the capability to correct, reform, and reset the path of His Church in His time frame, not in ours, when and as He deems so the gates do not prevail in the end. And some might not even place the same faith in Catholic interpretation or of ECFs as others might. Or some might not even believe the ECFs got it right

Jesus wasn’t born in a manger and made man at Creation. Likewise if one believes on His own schedule, be it 1000, 1500, 2000 or however many yrs, God can reform His Church if She has strayed and find new teachers to carry on the shepherding of His flock, then that is what they believe and have faith in. So what I think is the answer to your question based on their faith is no.

 

[guanophore]

OTOH, many of the Catholics that I saw lived a double life–they went to Mass on Sundays, but during the rest of the week, they lived with no recognition of God in their lives. Christ was only a “Get Out Of Hell Free Cookie” to them, or at least, that’s how it appeared to me and my Protestant brothers and sisters and family.

This was my experience also. It is the main reason I left the Church. I was looking for authentic spirituality.

 

[CMatt25]

My question is why would they feel that they have to “come home” to the CC.

After all, they are just as Christian by virtue of their baptism in Christ and use of the Trinitarian formula.

This morning, I went to a Communion service of the Presbyterian Church of Australia. It was just as spiritual and moving in its Liturgy of the Word and the Lord’s Supper.

Maybe it would be better to see other Christian denominations as allies rather than at best competitors and worst heretics who are damning their congregations for eternity.

There is only One Church, for a long time we have recognised the Orthodox as part of this same church, surely we have enough graciousness to realise that other non-Catholic denominations can be just as Christian as the CC?

Why do we need organisational unity? just as evangelical theology overlaps several denominations, and Charismatic theology also, can’t CHRISTIAN theology, love and virtues also?

A post full of love. :grouphug:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here is a quote from a second century Church Father that deals with this issue;

"The apostles… went forth into the world, and preached the same doctrine of the same Faith to the nations, and forthwith founded Churches in every city…But if there be any heresies, which venture to plant themselves in the midst of the age of the apostles, that they may therefore be thought to have been handed down from the apostles**…Let them make known the origins of their Churches; let them unfold the roll of their Bishops so coming down in succession from the beginning… For in this manner do the Apostolic Churches reckon their origin;** as the Church of Smyrna recounts that Polycarp was placed there by John; as that of Rome does that Clement was in like manner ordained by Peter…

…Let the heretics invent something of the same sort; for after blasphemy what is withheld from them? But even though they invent it, they will advance never a step; for their doctrine, when compared with that of the Apostles, will of itself declare, by the difference and contrariety between them, that it had neither any Apostle for its author, nor any Apostolic man; because, as the Apostles would not have taught things differing from each other, so neither would Apostolic men have set forth things contrary to the Apostles…

But in truth they neither are so nor are they received into union and communion by Churches in any way apostolical, simply because they are in no way apostolical, by reason of the difference of the sacred mysteries.…" Tertullian; The Prescription of Heretics, Chap. 32

The bishop of Rome is the only apostolic successor that has an unbroken line of apostolic succession to St.Peter, whom Jesus built his church upon and gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Peace be with you

 

[wisdomseeker]

Here is a quote from a second century Church Father that deals with this issue;

"The apostles… went forth into the world, and preached the same doctrine of the same Faith to the nations, and forthwith founded Churches in every city…But if there be any heresies, which venture to plant themselves in the midst of the age of the apostles, that they may therefore be thought to have been handed down from the apostles**…Let them make known the origins of their Churches; let them unfold the roll of their Bishops so coming down in succession from the beginning… For in this manner do the Apostolic Churches reckon their origin;** as the Church of Smyrna recounts that Polycarp was placed there by John; as that of Rome does that Clement was in like manner ordained by Peter…

…Let the heretics invent something of the same sort; for after blasphemy what is withheld from them? But even though they invent it, they will advance never a step; for their doctrine, when compared with that of the Apostles, will of itself declare, by the difference and contrariety between them, that it had neither any Apostle for its author, nor any Apostolic man; because, as the Apostles would not have taught things differing from each other, so neither would Apostolic men have set forth things contrary to the Apostles…

But in truth they neither are so nor are they received into union and communion by Churches in any way apostolical, simply because they are in no way apostolical, by reason of the difference of the sacred mysteries.…" Tertullian; The Prescription of Heretics, Chap. 32

The bishop of Rome is the only apostolic successor that has an unbroken line of apostolic succession to St.Peter, whom Jesus built his church upon and gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Peace be with you

Thank you. many dont realize the deceit being spreaded to others. we only need the one Church.

 

[CMatt25]

That’s why it is important to understand what someone believes.

Exactly. And actually even none of us were around to know with certainty what every member of His body of believers believed 2000 yrs ago. It’s all a matter of faith and belief in certain interpretations, writings, and in an interpretation of such writings. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

The doctrines of imputed righteousness and Justification by faith alone are lies. QUOTE]
john_aurelius;7948438:

This is what I meant… lies are when you know what you’re saying is not the truth. Whereas, Protestants are attempting to tell the truth.

If you think they’re wrong, as you are entiltled to, then correct them but you shouldn’t accuse them of lying.

This is very true. Both Luther and Calvin were sincerely searching for the biblical faith they believe had been lost. They were not trying to mislead the flock, but to reclaim the purity of the Gospel that had been corrupted by Catholic clerics fleecing the Church.

 

[guanophore]

If you profess the Creed, the Creed belongs to the CC. no one leaving the Church that construct the Creed has right to it take it out of the Church and then profess outside of her. It is her Creed. This is wrong. Thou shall not steal. Take what does not belong to you is stealing.

Lutherans have not “stolen” any thing, including the Creed. The CC still has the creed as much as she ever did.

Most Protestants retain a majority of the Catholic faith. Where they stray from it, they depart from the One Faith handed down to us from the Apostles.

What happens more often is that they assign new meanings to Catholic language, creating what constitutes “a different gospel”. This is part of what fragments the Body today.

 

[guanophore]

The bishop of Rome is the only apostolic successor that has an unbroken line of apostolic succession to St.Peter, whom Jesus built his church upon and gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Peace be with you

This is not true. All the five major Patriarchies have this, and there is also a line from Peter that orignated out of Antioch before Peter went to Rome.

It is not the line of succession exclusively that sets apart Rome as the center of orthodoxy and unity.

 

[MarkBrown]

Not in all my years as a Lutheran, even while being raised by a Lutheran pastor, did I ever see a bunch of Lutherans out in front of our neighbor Catholic Church on Reformation Day with signs and placards.

On all seriousness, though, I don’t like the term simply because it implies an inclusiveness of doctrine, and I might say origin, which doesn’t now and never has existed.

Jon

Last Reformation Day, some wag nailed Luthers 95 Thesis to the wooden door of St Michael’s the Archangel Catholic Church in Pensacola, Fl. My friend is the pastor of that Church. A parish of which I am now a member.

I doubt he was lutheran, probably one of the local Reformed Churches belonging to one of the splinter groups from the Presbyterian Church. We got a couple of extreme presbyterians here…the whole whore of babylon bit…when I was an Anglican they called Anglicanism the little whore…

Mark