Should the 19 year old Florida school shooter be given the death penalty?

[mVitus]

But his point is you can’t argue that in a secular manner, which is the manner required for civil law.

@meltzerboy Secularly speaking, what would your opinion on anti-CP arguments based in wrongful convictions that lead to innocents getting executed and the miseven application if the death penalty be?

 

[rcwitness]

I’m not here to debate religion with you or anyone else. I brought up the subject only in response to another poster’s argument against the death penalty.

I also did not mean to get into a religious debate.

The relationship between State and Catholic faith can be in harmony, as long as we are not forced to violate Catholic Teaching.

The Church does not support the death penalty in most all cases. So I would take issue if I was a politician, or judge who had to participate in one.

The same goes for contraception, abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, unjust wars, etc.

But we are not called to violently retaliate, but suffer against these injustices.

 

[rcwitness]

But his point is you can’t argue that in a secular manner, which is the manner required for civil law.

You can argue as far as the law is relative. After that we must suffer against injustice while not breaking God’s laws (professed by our Catholic faith).

 

[AlNg]

Islam is a religion of death and violence of a false prophet who accept Satan instead of God,

Not the opinion of Pope Francis:
July 10, 2013 message to Muslims for the end of Ramadan, Pope Francis said:
“… esteem and friendship for all Muslims, especially those who are religious leaders… Christians and Muslims, we are called to respect the religion of the other, its teachings, its symbols, its values. Particular respect is due to religious leaders and to places of worship… think and speak respectfully of other religions and their followers, and to avoid ridiculing or denigrating their convictions and practices… Happy Feast to you all!”
And according to the teaching of the Catholic Church
CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[thephilosopher6]

Islam was ultimately inspired by Satan: Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers

 

[Peebo]

Ender7h
adgloriam:
I was actually at an exposition this morning about the history of the death penalty, and it did give a global historical perspective on the problem.

I’d be willing to bet the “historical perspective” didn’t include this fact:

“The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches.” (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)

Are you suggesting the US is a paragon of Christian virtue because it still applies the death penalty…lol…take a look around

 

[meltzerboy2]

I’ll try once more. Where is Satan mentioned in this link? What did Pope John Paul II, now a Saint, say about Islam according to the article? What does the CCC say about Islam? Or do you believe that ANY religion not in keeping with Catholicism to the letter must be inspired by Satan?

 

[guanophore]

What is the right thing to do here CAF?

threadpost post:1:

The thread was asking what we believe the State should do with this man.

I am not sure. I think maybe it was more a request of what Catholic values inform this type of dilemma.

Christianity is beyond personal, it’s God’s truth.

Yes, but such a claim can be made by all world religions.

But you live in falsehood. Islam is a religion of death and violence of a false prophet who accept Satan instead of God,

This is an anti-Catholic position.

Rabbinic Judaism with its Talmud is heresy.

This is not only an anti-Catholic position, but is contrary to what Jesus specifically taught.

This is your belief based on your Catholic faith, and not representative of all or most Catholics since it is quite intolerant.

True. It is contrary to what the Church teaches.

The Catholic faith is the one true faith. There is no other. Truth is not relative. There is one truth, and that can be found only in Christ. Your views are simply false.

Jesus is grieved to hear such things.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Did you not read the link? Muslims may claim to worship the one true God, and indeed they do. Yet their religion was inspired by Satan himself through the false pedophile prophet named Muhammad.
Under the inspiration of Satan, they conceived of God as a ruthless dictator who wants to murder all unbelievers. This is Islam, the religion of the false Muhammad.

And yes, every religion that is not of the truth is of Satan. That includes Rabbinic Judaism inspired by the Pharisees after they rejected the Lord and went on to create the heretical Talmud. This is what the Lord Jesus Christ himself says,

“Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” - John 8:42-44

 

[meltzerboy2]

This is a major problem, which is another reason why CP should be rare and exercised with the greatest of care only in open-and-shut cases of guilt and in only the most heinous crimes. I would still hesitate to abolish it altogether, but rather would want it on the books for special cases.

 

[mVitus]

I’m assuming those special cases would be if someone that was sane did something akin to the teen this thread was started over?
And if I may ask, what reasons lead you to believe the death penalty in such cases is better than a life sentence?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Perhaps we should take this to another thread? Or maybe not since it might create more heat than light.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I didn’t start this, you did.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Yes, the crime this young boy committed was egregious enough, in my view, to warrant the death penalty. But, to tell the truth, I am not ENTIRELY convinced of the death penalty in this instance, though I lean toward it, and the reason I remain unconvinced is based on mitigating factors: the boy’s upbringing, the age of the accused, and, most of all, his sanity.

In some ways, life imprisonment with no possibility for parole, would be a more cruel punishment for one so young. And I would be hypocritical if I said the reason I believe the death penalty is more warranted is based on my religious views: in that the death penalty is a less cruel punishment since it would initiate his repentance in purgatory. So, in secular terms, is the death penalty a deterrent to similar crimes? I think the evidence is mixed in this regard. Is it absolutely necessary to protect society? No, it is not. Is it a form of retribution that is called for by a just society? Perhaps it does fulfill the secular requirements for justice based on paying the ultimate penalty for taking a life (several lives). But again, I’m not sure my reasoning is untinged with emotion and informed by my religion and moral values. In fact it probably is.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Then allow me to end it.

THE END

 

[mVitus]

With the deterrent, I lean towards the ineffective personally. I reason that it doesn’t affect in-the-moment killings and pre-meditated usually either plans to get away with it or doesn’t care.

But again, I’m not sure my reasoning is untinged with emotion and informed by my religion and moral values. In fact it probably is.

I would’ve been more surprised if it didn’t influence you. You’ve always come across as devout in your faith. And it’s always interesting to get your perspective.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Thanks for the compliment. You have a good point regarding the deterrent value.

 

[RichardsPlanet]

I don’t deny that. It is all there in the Catechism. However, we can’t just cherry pick a phrase or two that we like - it must be examined in it’s whole.

The Catechism outlines that:

(1) The State has legitimate authority to enact and carry out punishments. This is true for all States: United State, China, Zimbabwe, France, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.
(2) Punishment must be commensurate with the crime.

It further gives guidance on how punishment is to be applied:

2266 Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

2267 If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Therefore, the death penalty is a just option, but should only be used when non-lethal means are insufficient to defend and protect people.

 

[Darryl_B]

The evidence against the Florida school shooting suspect is so overwhelming, the only question left for the courts if he is convicted is whether he will be sentenced to death or spend the rest of his life in prison.

That is not the only question left, the question which remains after everything is laid to rest, after the dust subsides, is why do our children do this? Think about it, do people wake up in the morning, and suddenly think to themselves “you know today I should go out and kill some innocent victims but first I must formulate a fool-proof cunningly devised escape plan”? An exit strategy is always lacking.

There are two ways to commit this act, the first is in secret, the serial killer (even dubbed a name “the [insert word] killer”), living in disguise, shrouded in mystery, putting fear into us, who is next? Keep your children off the streets. The second is this scenario. But why? Wooden boxes laid to rest, are not providing me with answers. The American investigators are more concerned about parading the villain to the American public like an old school wild west hanging.

 

[AlNg]

what reasons lead you to believe the death penalty in such cases is better than a life sentence?

For one thing, a life sentence is never certain to be a life sentence. The sentence can be reduced, or the criminal can be pardoned, or the criminal may escape and never be heard from again. Either way, if he is pardoned or if he escapes, being on the loose, his lust for innocent blood may return and he may kill more school children. With the death penalty, you avoid that. And on top of that you have homeless people on the streets who could use some of the money spent to keep the criminal in jail for life.
No. I don’t like the death penalty, But take a look at the faces of those beautiful children this man shot to death. Look at their photos and look at the photos of their loving families. Why did this man continue to shoot and shoot and kill innocent people. His actions were those of a wild attacking and vicious animal with a lust to kill and what do you do when a vicious animal is attacking and killing innocent children?
There is always a chance for a man to repent and to be forgiven, but at the same time, it is important that society be able to protect its beautiful young children from these heinous crimes.