Should the Catholic Church lose their tax exempt status?

[elts1956]

To begin with I need to be up front that although I was baptised and raised catholic I lost my faith along the way. Too many “cafeteria” Catholics raised questions that I found my faith could not answer. Even so I feel a connection with the Church though not as strongly as before.

This recent news about the Bishops taking on the US government has promted me to start wondering about the separation of church and state.

In the news there is a lot of press about the Catholic Church trying to exert control over the US government. Thereby exerting control over non-Catholics. Personally I feel this violates freedom of religion.

The issue at hand is that the US government allows people to make their own choice about abortion. The Catholic Church is trying to get the government to repeal those rights because of their religious beliefs.

This clear cut case indicates to me that it is time to examine the tax exempt status of the Church. I feel if the Church wishes to reap the benefits of the government enforcing the laws they choose they should be willing to pay for that right as does any other who wishes to have that priviledge.

The Church has an obligation to form right conscience among congregants. Only in one instance was the name of a candidate mentioned by a Bishop during this election and I am sure that was because of an attack of fury at those obstinate Cafeteria Catholics who were ignoring the teachings of the Church. The Catholic Church and her loyal clergy have NOT taken on the government of this country. But they have indeed taken on the uninformed faithless who deny the authority of the Church to teach them the truth of their Faith.

 

[dbting_tom]

elts1956 -
“The Catholic Church and her loyal clergy have NOT taken on the government of this country.”

-The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration…

It sure sounds like they have.

 

[elts1956]

Singling out the Catholic church for stating their views on morality and revoking a status that is shared among non-profit groups is a form of persecution. Look at Canada where they have fined ministers for talking to their congregations about gays and calling it hate speech, while allowing other people to blatantly say “kill the Christians” without any repercussions. ezralevant.com/2008/10/ (Alberta HRC: Christians have no “human rights”)

Persecution starts somewhere, and threatening a church for speaking about moral issues is the start of a slippery slope. There are reasons our forefathers fought for free speech, because opposing points of views need to be heard, so when mistakes are made they can be rectified.

I find it interesting that I have yet to hear from someone who is pro-choice to stop for a minute and say to themselves, “Even if I don’t agree with them, what would I do if I believed children were being murdered?”. I would hope that your answer would be, “I would fight tooth and nail with everything I had to stop the murder of innocents.” That is what the churches are doing (not just Catholic). They are fighting as best they can to stop what they believe is the murder of children. What else could they do morally?

Don’t forget that throughout history Jews, blacks, Asians, Native Americans and basically any outsiders were considered sub-human and killed without remorse. Of course we abhor the actions of our ancestors and can’t believe that they could possibly believe that was okay. The view of history on this subject will be very different than what it is now. Our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will ask how we could stand by and let it happen.

The first thing governments, including our own, do in regard to persecution of Jews, Blacks, Asians, Native Americans is to dehumanize them. It is much, much easier to kill and persecute something that is not considered human.

 

[elts1956]

elts1956 -
“The Catholic Church and her loyal clergy have NOT taken on the government of this country.”

-The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration…

It sure sounds like they have.

It is a matter of ethics and morality. Add to that Religious Freedom in this country. It is under attack.

 

[mapleoak]

Pro-Choice Advocates says that we should lose it. Why or why not?

Quite the opposite, they do want the Church to lose its tax exempt status because they falsly think it somehow restricts what the Church can say about abortion. The belief is that the Church would be all the more vocal against abortion including actually endorsing particular political candidates if it weren’t for this perceived crutch (which sadly many of our bishops also falsly believe as well). Little do they know, however, the Church is entirely free to encourage or discourage support for political policies such as when they encouraged the people of Michigan to reject proposal 2 on the ballot. Sadly though, the people chose to put their worldy interests above the teachings of the Church.

 

[almeras]

If losing our tax exempt status would cause the bishops and clergy to be more vocal, and the church to become a larger part in the fight against abortion and other issues, then I say take it. I would be happy to give more money to support my church if they had to pay taxes. If we were all told that we could end abortion by giving up the tax exempt status of the church, I think we would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[dbting_tom]

It is a matter of ethics and morality. Add to that Religious Freedom in this country. It is under attack.

I agree that the religious freedoms of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now. The freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged vocally.

Can anyone give me an answer to this:
Why should the Catholic Church benefit from the protections granted by the constitution when it has no respect for the basis of those protections?

Obviously most on this board will feel it is because the Church is above the laws of man and within the context of their own faith that is true. But what reasonable answer can you give to the 76% of Americans who are not Catholic?

 

[RobbyS]

HappyRevert;4415040:

The Catholic Church is not trying to exert control over the US government

How can you even say that? As US bishops are publicly stating that they are making a concerted effort to pressure the incoming administration to pass laws that they favor you sit there and say they aren’t.

John Marshall said, with reference to state taxes on the first national bank, that the power to tax is the power to destroy. If you want to suppress an activity, you put a tax on it. Itcan be effective. There is already a tax on church schools because the state does not exempt parents from paying a public school tax even though they meet their obligation to educte their children b sending them to private schools or homeschooling them. This forces parents to send their children to often inadequate public schools. It makes sit hard for private schools to flourish and tends to drive them out of business.

 

[dbting_tom]

I am not denying that taxation can be used as a tool to persecute. But that doesn’t mean that all taxation is persecution.

 

[Usagi]

I agree that the religious freedoms of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now. The freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged vocally.

Excuse me? The Catholic Church has no special power to force its will on others. However, American Catholics have the same right as everyone else to speak out about their convictions and even lobby for them to be supported by law.

Obviously, I’m not interested in seeing the U.S. government in bed with the Catholic Church or vice versa, but Catholic citizens are allowed to attempt to influence the government just as everyone else is.

Speaking out on issues like abortion is not infringing anyone else’s religious freedom. The Catholic Church is not trying to shut down anyone else’s ability to believe and worship as they wish. Rather, the Church, along with other segments of American society both religious and secular, is putting forward the belief that abortion is the unjustified killing of a human being. That’s exactly the sort of thing that government can make laws about, without infringing on religious freedom.

The Church in America is very careful not to back specific parties or candidates. (As an international organization ten times older than the United States, the Catholic Church really doesn’t care, in the final analysis, who gets to be in charge in one young nation for a few years.) However, the Church does have issues it cares about, and some of those call for involvement in the shaping of social policy to the degree that the law permits.

The principle of separation between church and state forbids the government from giving special legal status to one religious body over others, or from prohibiting the exercise of people’s religious beliefs. It does not forbid religious people or even religious bodies from competing in the democratic “marketplace of ideas” alongside every other population segment and interest group out there.

Usagi

 

[elts1956]

I agree that the religious freedoms of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now. The freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged vocally.

Can anyone give me an answer to this:
Why should the Catholic Church benefit from the protections granted by the constitution when it has no respect for the basis of those protections?

Obviously most on this board will feel it is because the Church is above the laws of man and within the context of their own faith that is true. But what reasonable answer can you give to the 76% of Americans who are not Catholic?

Sorry, I don’t know what you are talking about. Unfortunately everyone is a bit occular deficient when it comes to their own Faith. So please clarify. Thanks.

 

[mapleoak]

I agree that the religious freedoms of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now.
The freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged vocally.

An example?

Can anyone give me an answer to this:
Why should the Catholic Church benefit from the protections granted by the constitution when it has no respect for the basis of those protections?

An example of the Catholic Church having not respect for the so-called basis of those protections. Would you be willing to be the arbiter of who the constitution applies to and who it does not?

Obviously most on this board will feel it is because the Church is above the laws of man and within the context of their own faith that is true. But what reasonable answer can you give to the 76% of Americans who are not Catholic?

The Catholic Church can teach whatever it wishes. Of course it will only teach truth. If you are among the 76% percent of of americans who are not Catholic, then not to worry, go somewhere else that teaches what you want to hear.

 

[KingAlfred]

To begin with I need to be up front that although I was baptised and raised catholic I lost my faith along the way. Too many “cafeteria” Catholics raised questions that I found my faith could not answer. Even so I feel a connection with the Church though not as strongly as before.

This recent news about the Bishops taking on the US government has promted me to start wondering about the separation of church and state.

In the news there is a lot of press about the Catholic Church trying to exert control over the US government. Thereby exerting control over non-Catholics. Personally I feel this violates freedom of religion.

The issue at hand is that the US government allows people to make their own choice about abortion. The Catholic Church is trying to get the government to repeal those rights because of their religious beliefs.

This clear cut case indicates to me that it is time to examine the tax exempt status of the Church. I feel if the Church wishes to reap the benefits of the government enforcing the laws they choose they should be willing to pay for that right as does any other who wishes to have that priviledge.

The Catholic Church courageously rebuilt and held together Europe after the fall of Rome AD 476. We now live in a similar age. No…the Church must keep fighting The Good Fight, to turn back the many waves of decadence and neo-barbarism that are hammering away at the soul of America and Europe. And it needs every advantage it can get, including its tax-exempt status. If there is any force on Earth capable of saving Western Man, it’s *Catholicism. *

 

[muskieman]

I agree that singling out the Catholic church would be inappropriate. But as it stands the question is not one of singling out a specific group because of their beliefs. The government is not going to tax the Catholic Church because the Church teaches that abortion is wrong. The issue is not abortion. The issue is separation of Church and State.

The situation is that the Constitution calls for a separation of Church and State. Part of that is the fact that the US government waives taxation of churches so long as the churches waive their right to interfere in government.

If the Catholic Church believes that the issue of abortion is so important that they are willing to waive their right to not be taxed I can respect that decision.

But whether or not the Church is taxed is a choice entirely in control of the Church and decided by the actions the Church chooses to take.

This is the poblem, please be so kind as to quote from the constitution the article or line that states there shall be a separation of church and state?

 

[RobHom]

I agree that the religious freedoms of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now. The freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged vocally.

Really…(note…it seems you want to run a particularly biased theme…OK, lets play ) What “religious freedoms” of every non-Catholic are being attacked by the Church very openly now? I don’t see the Church attacking anyone…I see the Church trying to stop the wholesale murder of unborn children. What “freedom of the ethics and morals of non-Catholics are being challenged”?
The Church is not challenging anyone’s freedom of ethics or morals. You have have whatever ethics or morals you want. The Church is just doing the right thing and fighting gratuitous murder of the innocent unborn children. Whats wrong with that? Nothing at all. Certainly its a Christian endeavor embraced by Christians worldwide…at least those that are actually Christians. As well as by many persons of other faiths and even atheists.

Can anyone give me an answer to this:
Why should the Catholic Church benefit from the protections granted by the constitution when it has no respect for the basis of those protections?

Your question is based on a disingenuous premise. The Church does respect the basis of the protections afforded by the Constitution to all people in this country. It takes umbrage and objects to a court decision that overturned pre-existing laws that had been in place for many years in this country.

Obviously most on this board will feel it is because the Church is above the laws of man and within the context of their own faith that is true. But what reasonable answer can you give to the 76% of Americans who are not Catholic?

Considering religious demographics and the moral fiber of the balance of the remaining 76%…or the lack thereof many of whom are Christians who are very much against abortion…it has nothing to do with the Church being above the laws of man. It is a simple belief that life is sacred. Life is to be protected.

The Army is not “Christian” but when we went into combat the lives of our fellow soldiers were so important even to the point of sacred that we would never leave one of our brother’s behind, and would risk our lives to save them or even recover their remains.

I know “Atheists” who abhor abortion!!! Jews do not support abortion judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_birthcontrolabortion.htm and interestingly enough it seems that most all the worldwide religions have strong moral objections to abortion atheism.about.com/od/abortioncontraception/p/Religions.htm

Personally, I am not as strident on the subject as some, as I can see that it is possible that there could be an exception to the rule under extreme circumstances… but for anyone to support abortion for the purpose of “birth control” or “convenience” is abhorrent.

But at the bottom line…the Catholic Church is not attacking anyone or anything possessed or thought to be possessed materially or otherwise as far as non-Catholics are concerned. Its about protecting “life”.

 

[dbting_tom]

The principle of separation between church and state forbids the government from giving special legal status to one religious body over others, or from prohibiting the exercise of people’s religious beliefs. It does not forbid religious people or even religious bodies from competing in the democratic “marketplace of ideas” alongside every other population segment and interest group out there.

Usagi

To allow the Catholic church to force a law against abortion upon people who have no religious prohibitions against it is giving special legal status to the Catholic church.

Their is no prohibition against individuals trying to influence the law but I am not referring to individuals. I am referring to the Bishops and other representatives of the Church who have recently decided to attack the presidential administration because of it’s stance on abortion. They are not acting as individuals but as agents of the Church.

 

[dbting_tom]

The Catholic Church courageously rebuilt and held together Europe after the fall of Rome AD 476. We now live in a similar age. No…the Church must keep fighting The Good Fight, to turn back the many waves of decadence and neo-barbarism that are hammering away at the soul of America and Europe. And it needs every advantage it can get, including its tax-exempt status. If there is any force on Earth capable of saving Western Man, it’s Catholicism.

KingAlfred you are really not helping your case in the eyes of those who do not share your faith. In fact you sound disturbingly similar to other religious radicals that the US is violently confronting these days. Thankfully I do know enough to know that your views of Theocratic domination are not shared by all your peers.

 

[po18guy]

Because the US Government condone abortion, do you think the Catholic Church lose their tax exempt status?

Pro-Choice Advocates says that we should lose it. Why or why not?

This is the evil one’s latest attack against the Church. The constitution forbids prohibiting the free expression of religion. However, seven unjust men also “found” a right to murder the unborn in there, as well. This, based on “Emanations from a penumbra” What in hell was that?

The power to tax is the power to destroy, so that which the government permits through taxation, it can also prohibit through taxation. Sounds like the end times are fast approaching.

The Church must be kept free of taxation, if it is to have a shred of truth left in her. The forces of death couldn’t care less, and actively seek the destruction of truth. This points rather clearly to the origins of all evil.

 

[Kielbasi]

Because the US Government condone abortion, do you think the Catholic Church lose their tax exempt status?

Pro-Choice Advocates says that we should lose it. Why or why not?

Of course not. In the United States, churches ,and not just the Catholic Church, have been actively involved in promoting their positions on temperance, slavery, education, civil rights, war and other issues from the very beginning.

To suddenly say its not right for the Catholic Church (or other churches) to vocalize their position on the issues of today is about as unamerican as it comes. Remember the power to tax is the power to destroy, and the 1st amendment guarantees our existing rights to freedom of religion and of speech. When a man puts on a roman collar he surrenders none of his rights under the law.

 

[RobHom]

To allow the Catholic church to force a law against abortion upon people who have no religious prohibitions against it is giving special legal status to the Catholic church.

Well it seems that you have well established yourself as a “Catholic Basher”…but that’s OK…nothing new or special about that.

What you apparently choose to neglect is the fact that the Catholic Church is but one of the many churches that are tax exempt that are fighting precisely the same fight for the sanctity of life.

By your flawed logic, the NRA should be denied tax free status because it supports “guns” against the people who desire to disarm all citizens. That is giving special legal status to the NRA.
Your logic is flawed in many other instances as well. Political parties should be taxed into the ground for trying to force laws on people that do not agree with them on whatever basis stokes their furnace…right?

Their is no prohibition against individuals trying to influence the law but I am not referring to individuals. I am referring to the Bishops and other representatives of the Church who have recently decided to attack the presidential administration because of it’s stance on abortion. They are not acting as individuals but as agents of the Church.

That you consider it “attacking” is your opinion. You are forgetting that the First Amendment grants each and every person in this country the right to speak out as they feel. When a member of the Clergy fails to stand up and speak against abortion…that would be a false teacher. In fact any person who fails to rebel against abortion…is a sad case for humanity.

The Catholic Church is not now just starting to do this. It has been this way forever. So this is not a new issue. Too bad you aren’t the one who makes the decisions, right?

I could, but have elected not to go on the attack, against those who choose to use abortion as the cure all for their errors. But I find it very difficult to believe that any human being would find it “beneficial” to support abortion as a cure for anything other than to save the life of the mother.