Should the Church return to the old rite?

[MagdalenaRita]

And what trend is that?

CAF is actually pretty permissive and indulgent towards the traditionalist movement. That’s good — if it were otherwise, I wouldn’t be here.

CA is pretty permissive and indulgent toward the traditionalist movement, yes and converts and reverts, which is what I was speaking of, the insulting of converts. It seems over the last several weeks there have been frequent insults toward converts. Some which included derogatory names. Definitely not from all here but from several.

I rarely listen to Michael Voris. I pray for him, though in this talk he is just pretty accurate about what happened.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

In Haydock’s commentary it says:

I will also give. Some are called to the service of their God, and to a life of virtue, from their infancy, whilst others, by a powerful call from above, are converted late in life, that the former may have no occasion to glory in themselves, or to despise those who, even in the 11th hour, enter upon the path of rectitude; and that all might learn that there is time sufficient, however short, left them to repair by their diligence and fervour their past losses.

Citing Haydock — God love you, friend. I am thankful to live in a time when awesome resources such as Haydock are available free of charge with a few online keystrokes. A printed and bound Haydock is too rich for my blood.

CA is pretty permissive and indulgent toward the traditionalist movement, yes and converts and reverts, which is what I was speaking of, the insulting of converts. It seems over the last several weeks there have been frequent insults toward converts. Definitely not from all here but from several.

I revised my post after I cooled my jets for a moment and re-read these comments more closely.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am thankful to live in a time when awesome resources such as Haydock are available free of charge with a few online keystrokes. A printed and bound Haydock is too rich for my blood.

It is too rich for me also but I do see the availability of these resources has become very helpful for Catholics.

I kind of clarified my post also.

 

[OraLabora]

To put down the Church of either before or after VII is not charitable to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, nor to our Church Fathers who came before us and handed down the faith to us.

Sorry for the confusion, to be clear I’m talking about the Quebec church (I.e. the local hierarchy and clergy) which flirted with the Jansenist heresy as well as a local version, « Lacouturisme » which in fact caused the prior of our abbey at the time to lose his position. It was a perverted distortion of the faith of our fathers.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

MagdalenaRita:

To put down the Church of either before or after VII is not charitable to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, nor to our Church Fathers who came before us and handed down the faith to us.

Sorry for the confusion, to be clear I’m talking about the Quebec church (I.e. the local hierarchy and clergy) which flirted with the Jansenist heresy as well as a local version, « Lacouturisme » which in fact caused the prior of our abbey at the time to lose his position. It was a perverted distortion of the faith of our fathers.

Did the Quebec church “flirt with the Jansenist heresy”, or was it just a very strict, demanding church that perhaps took some things too literally? Those would be two different things. To refuse a couple absolution because, in the judgment of their confessor, they do not have grave/serious/just reasons to use the “rhythm method”, is something that no 20th- or 21st-century Catholic (who has decided to use rhythm/NFP in the first place) wants to hear. No priest today would even dare “go there”. Yet I understand that this did happen in Quebec.

I have wondered, if the Traditional Latin Mass had remained the only Mass for Roman Rite Catholics, and if Vatican II had never taken place, whether Catholics across the board (at least in affluent, educated, well-developed Western countries) would have reacted similar to the way Quebec Catholics did in the révolution tranquille — “this is all out of date, we cannot live this way anymore, people are now educated, women are finally ‘liberated’, we are in ‘modern times’ and we’re not going to go along with this old, oppressive religion, we will be secular”. Or, in an Anglo-American context, the reaction might have been “times have changed, Catholicism is just too hard, we’re good people and we don’t have to put up with this — we’ll just go to the Episcopal (or Methodist, or Presbyterian, or whatever) church, after all, they’re Christians, there’s only one God, and there’s only one heaven”.

Maybe Our Blessed Lord gave John XXIII an illumination for a reason.

 

[Dovekin]

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI specifically stated that the two rites can coexist and complement each other. Although personally the best way for this to happen is for the Novus Ordo to mirror the Extraordinary Form (i.e celebration Ad Orientem with the priest not turning his back to Our Lord, Tabernacle in the centre, no Communion in the hand, no guitars of cymbals, etc)

“Complement each other” also implies

The EF mirroring the OF i.e. the priest celebrates facing the people, not turning his back to the Body of Christ, the Altar as the center, no communion on the tongue, no organs or solos, etc.

I would be fine with either of these services…

 

[OraLabora]

Did the Quebec church “flirt with the Jansenist heresy”, or was it just a very strict, demanding church that perhaps took some things too literally?

Yes it did flirt with Jansenism. First of all, keep in mind that Jansenism’s heyday was in the 17th and 18th centuries, when New France was being colonized from France. Secondly the Church conflated itself with Québec nationalism and part of the push for a high birth rate was to outnumber the English. In that it succeeded, but it also left us poor and uneducated, and ripe for exploitation from the English which is exactly what happened. There was also very strict clericalism. The clergy were essentially in control of Catholics’ lives.

And yes it is true about people using NFP being refused absolution. The wife of our choirmaster, a very good friend in her 70s, recalls as a young girl being taken with her sister to confession with her father. When her father was in the confessional, she heard his voice thunder out "you can shove your absolution (expletive deleted). He had confessed using NFP because they were too poor to feed another child, and the priest refused absolution. Also a written anecdote in a book by a priest telling of a woman going to confession to a colleague of his and being asked if she was pregnant. She said no. The the priest asked if she was nursing. She said no. Then he said “then I cannot give you absolution”. She replied "you can shove your absolution (expletive deleted)! I’ve been a widow for 3 years!

Or, in an Anglo-American context, the reaction might have been “times have changed, Catholicism is just too hard, we’re good people and we don’t have to put up with this — we’ll just go to the Episcopal (or Methodist, or Presbyterian, or whatever) church, after all, they’re Christians, there’s only one God, and there’s only one heaven”.

Maybe Our Blessed Lord gave John XXIII an illumination for a reason.

One would like to think that our Popes have been guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe it was St. John XXXIII who said it was time to open the drapes and let some light and air in. IMHO it was long overdue. Liturgy is but one aspect of it.

 

[OddBird]

No mumbled or speed-read low Masses

There is a short story by Alphonse Daudet titled Les trois Messes basses (Three Low Masses), published in 1875. It narrates how, on a Christmas night, a priest, fascinated with the thought of the upcoming feast at the local manor, rushes quicker and quicker through the three vigil low Masses so he can get there sooner. The last Mass is expedited so fast that he not only mumbles through, but gleefully jumps over entire parts, and nobody in the congregation manages to follow along in their missals any longer – but they don’t mind, as it means they too will get to eat sooner.

Afterwards, he has quite a time at supper, so much that he dies of apoplexy in the night.

His soul is assigned the penance of saying three hundred low Masses, three each Christmas night during one century, accompanied with the souls of all faithful who have sinned alongside with him.

Of course, it is fiction, but the fact that Daudet, a writer close to the naturalist movement, should write such a short story, is telling about what he must have witnessed sometimes – and it shows that issues with a (perceived or real) lack of reverence are nothing new.

That said, I’ve had occasions to witness well-celebrated EF Masses, and while I’ll admit a preference for the OF, I understand the attraction.

 

[27lw]

I suspect that the rise of the EF people (within the Church) might be similar to the rise of the Orthodox in Israel. Religious families having more children, while secular families have fewer, gradually turns the society more religiously conservative. It could be a big difference, say, over 50 years.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ultra-orthodox-jewish-community-in-israel-facts-and-figures

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I suspect that the rise of the EF people might be similar to the rise of the Orthodox in Israel. Religious families having more children, while secular families have fewer, gradually turns the society more religious. It could be a big difference, say, over 50 years.
Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Community in Israel: Facts and Figures

I have noted the exact same parallel.

Let’s hope so.

HomeschoolDad:

Did the Quebec church “flirt with the Jansenist heresy”, or was it just a very strict, demanding church that perhaps took some things too literally?

Yes it did flirt with Jansenism. First of all, keep in mind that Jansenism’s heyday was in the 17th and 18th centuries, when New France was being colonized from France. Secondly the Church conflated itself with Québec nationalism and part of the push for a high birth rate was to outnumber the English. In that it succeeded, but it also left us poor and uneducated, and ripe for exploitation from the English which is exactly what happened. There was also very strict clericalism. The clergy were essentially in control of Catholics’ lives.

OK, point well proven, you know much more about it than I do. One of the most powerful forces in the world is a high birth rate. Too bad it didn’t translate into more power for the people in Catholic Quebec.

And yes it is true about people using NFP being refused absolution. The wife of our choirmaster, a very good friend in her 70s, recalls as a young girl being taken with her sister to confession with her father. When her father was in the confessional, she heard his voice thunder out "you can shove your absolution (expletive deleted). He had confessed using NFP because they were too poor to feed another child, and the priest refused absolution. Also a written anecdote in a book by a priest telling of a woman going to confession to a colleague of his and being asked if she was pregnant. She said no. The the priest asked if she was nursing. She said no. Then he said “then I cannot give you absolution”. She replied "you can shove your absolution (expletive deleted)! I’ve been a widow for 3 years!

I’m glad you deleted the expletives. I have some familiarity with Quebecois sacré and I can well imagine. I cringe inwardly whenever I assist at the Spanish Mass, and the priest says éste es el cáliz de mi sangre, because, well, you know…

 

[phil19034]

he just chose to focus his rigidity on his traditionalism.

Getting rid of of parish festival and parish charities isn’t traditionalism. There was something else going on with him.

 

[CTBcin]

Considering the amount of people who are leaving in droves should the Catholic Church return back to the missal of 1962?

No. The Extraordinary form is no more or less efficacious than the Ordinary Form.

I would, however, be up for incorporating more Latin in the liturgy, as well as better using the Church’s treasury of sacred music. And mutual enrichment between the rites would be fine too…

 

[CTBcin]

Traditional parishes who do the Extraordinary form attract more members than your typical parish, especially young people.

That’s because it’s a niche. I’m all for using the EF, but one successful EF parish in a large city with many parishes doesn’t mean anything; those who go to EF parishes are generally seeking it out.

 

[Dolphin]

The Church does not conform to the wants of others so that it becomes more attractive for members. Rather, members conform to the Church and ultimately the way of Jesus.

This question is an obvious non-starter by using very flawed logic.

 

[27lw]

The Church does not conform to the wants of others so that it becomes more attractive for members. Rather, members conform to the Church and ultimately the way of Jesus.

This question is an obvious non-starter by using very flawed logic.

Isn’t that partly what Vatican II was about – making the Church attractive to members?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Isn’t that partly what Vatican II was about – making the Church attractive to members

and non members

 

[stpurl]

How often do people have to correct the misbegotten fallacy that the Priest ‘Turns his back on the people” when celebrating ad orientum?

 

[dochawk]

After all, unless we pray in one big circle, someone is always going to “have their back” to somebody.

shh.

The next logical step is complaints that the guy in the pew ahead of me has his back to me . . .

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the priest faces towards the altar

Actually, we call it “the Holy Table.”

It doesn’t have relics as the RC do. Rather, they are sewn into the individual priest’s antimension, which he spreads across the altar. At the bishop’s death or retirement, it is returned and the new bishops sends a new one.

[I read somewhere, but haven’t confirmed, that an EC church provided the US army a substantial number of these during WWII, so they could celebrate fro the troops without devoting most of a jeep to hauling a stone altar about.]

 

[Dovekin]

How often do people have to correct the misbegotten fallacy that the Priest ‘Turns his back on the people” when celebrating ad orientum?

My remark was a reply to “the priest not turning his back to Our Lord” about when he faces the altar instead of the tabernacle.

 

[Defc]

Absolutely!