Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[Lee_M]

Perhaps these bulletin annuncements would help

BRITNEY SPEARS CONCERT CANCELLED! Unfortunately, our efforts to get pop sensation Britney Spears to perform a benefit fundraiser for the parish have proven unsuccessful. Her calendar is full. Therefore, those who have been arriving at Mass every Sunday dressed for a Britney Spears concert should know that they don’t have to do that anymore. Modest church-going attire will do nicely. We will notify you if the situation changes.

PLANS FOR PARISH SWIMMING POOL SCRAPPED! After much study, our finance committee has determined it would not be feasible to construct an indoor swimming pool in our church. Among other things, they report, it would interfere with the valuable work now being performed each Sunday by our ushers, who have enough difficulty navigating the aisles without doing it in flippers and a life vest. As a result, we can now announce with certainty that those who have been arriving for Mass as if dressed for the pool need not do so. Also, we hope to keep the air conditioning cranking all summer long. So you do not need to wear shorts, halter tops or bikinis to Mass.

deacbench.blogspot.com/2007/08/bulletin-announcements-id-like-to-see.html

Those are pretty good. Especially the cell phone causing head injuries.

 

[Lepanto]

I am just happy the teenagers are there. What is “immodest” is most often in the eye of the beholder.

So then you would be just as happy if they showed up wearing their bathing suits?

 

[reff]

I voted yes. On the doors there are signs that say “No gum, turn off all cell phones, etc.” So I don’t see why there wouldn’t be a sign pointing out what is and is not appropriate to wear in the presence of Our Lord. Would you greet Our Lord in shorts and a spaghetti strap shirt. NO! It is very hard for a young man my age to stay focused on the Mass when young ladies come in dressed immodestly.

 

[Kolbelover]

with due respect to some of the other posters on this thread, modesty is not subjective.

and guess what men? It is OUR job to show our wives, daughters and sons what is appropriate. This is especially true for our women…the world LIES to them constantly. It tells them that beauty is synonymous with immodesty. It tells them that they are too fat…that their hair is not straight enough…that it is too straight…that it is the wrong color…It tells them that their breasts are the wrong size and shape…it tells them that their legs aren’t long enough…it tells them that they have “unsightly” cellulite… Moreover, it tells them that they must address these deficiencies in order to be attractive to men…

The boys aren’t exempt from these lies, either…tattoos, underwear hanging out of ill-fitting trousers… six-pack abs…erectile dysfunction… “natural male enhancement” and on and on… But our girls and women face a constant barrage of imagery and feedback (one publication has the gall to name a famous woman as “least sexy”)…

We men have to stop the cycle. We have to tell our girls and women that their bodies are precious, but that they should protected… We should also lovingly inform them how many men process the over-sexualization of our women: That the power of their femininity can lead us to sinful behavior… We need to remind our women that they ARE their brother’s keepers!

And while us men are at it, the least we can do is be clean, GROOMED, and in appropriate attire when we enter God’s house.

Like MOST issues in our Church, it comes down to reverence for the Eucharist: If it is BREAD then wear shorts and sandals, by all means…if it is JESUS, then we ought to show our belief that it is, in EVERY way we can. Scripture tells us that if we are trustworthy in small matters, then we are trustworthy in great ones…

men…lets step up

 

[crenfro]

I hope nothing drastic is done soon because I lost most of my clothing in a flood and I have very little selection of what to wear and my finances are limited.

Have been teaching myself how to sew however, so hopefully I’ll have some skirts and dresses made in the next few months.

What bothers me (regarding appropriate dress!) at Mass is what the Eucharistic ministers wear. Too much casual denim, too much polo shirt…and there they are, right up there at the altar.

I’ve just read the book “Dressing With Dignity” by Colleen Hammond though, and I’m planning a much more decent wardrobe, as my finances allow in the upcoming months. Don’t think I’ll be ready to wear a veil though for a long time. I’m still rebellious when it comes to wearing a veil, so, I guess I need to pray to be willing to be willing to be more obedient to God’s will.

Thanks for this topic.

 

[surfinpure]

with due respect to some of the other posters on this thread, modesty is not subjective.

and guess what men? It is OUR job to show our wives, daughters and sons what is appropriate. This is especially true for our women…the world LIES to them constantly. It tells them that beauty is synonymous with immodesty. It tells them that they are too fat…that their hair is not straight enough…that it is too straight…that it is the wrong color…It tells them that their breasts are the wrong size and shape…it tells them that their legs aren’t long enough…it tells them that they have “unsightly” cellulite… Moreover, it tells them that they must address these deficiencies in order to be attractive to men…

The boys aren’t exempt from these lies, either…tattoos, underwear hanging out of ill-fitting trousers… six-pack abs…erectile dysfunction… “natural male enhancement” and on and on… But our girls and women face a constant barrage of imagery and feedback (one publication has the gall to name a famous woman as “least sexy”)…

We men have to stop the cycle. We have to tell our girls and women that their bodies are precious, but that they should protected… We should also lovingly inform them how many men process the over-sexualization of our women: That the power of their femininity can lead us to sinful behavior… We need to remind our women that they ARE their brother’s keepers!

And while us men are at it, the least we can do is be clean, GROOMED, and in appropriate attire when we enter God’s house.

Like MOST issues in our Church, it comes down to reverence for the Eucharist: If it is BREAD then wear shorts and sandals, by all means…if it is JESUS, then we ought to show our belief that it is, in EVERY way we can. Scripture tells us that if we are trustworthy in small matters, then we are trustworthy in great ones…

men…lets step up

 

[Schluns]

crenfro,

I am sorry that you were effected by the flooding this summer. My heart goes out to you. While my family was not affected by the flooding here in Indiana we did spend a night bailing out our sump pit to avoid any flooding in our basement the week before. I have many patients that lost most everything to the flooding this year.

As far a modesty and dressing for mass reverently, you can and I am sure do dress the best you can with what is in your current wardrobe. As long as you dress as clean and modest as you can, your congregation will remember your losses as I am sure you were not the only person affected.

As you recover from your trials, remember to swing by your local St Vincent De Paul Society, Goodwill, and consignment shops for inexpensive ‘gently worn’ clothes.

Also, as you learn to sew and have patterns that can be reused, perhaps starting a sewing club at your parish to assist other women in restocking their wardrobe also?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Absolutely in cases like yours, crenfro, no one would/should be ‘judging you lacking’. God doesn’t hold us to the impossible. God forbid that we find fault with someone’s ‘attire’ when that person literally has ‘nothing else’. Those are situations ‘outside the norm’ and the whole focus of this thread and other threads on the topic of modest dress have always addressed the ‘norm’ of those who have or can easily obtain modest clothing yet choose to wear immodest or inappropriate clothing because of their own personal desire for ‘comfort’, their own will (I have heard people say that under no circumstances would they ‘make’ themselves wear what they didn’t want to wear and to hades with anybody–even the priest or “The Church” who told them otherwise), or their own ‘cowardice’ regarding going ‘against’ what "society says is okay and I don’t want to look like a freak’.

Your case is so very different! I am so sorry for your loss and I will pray for your financial situation to improve.

 

[Sarabande]

I am coming in on this late and didn’t read the entire thread. Here is my thoughts on the subject. As a person who will almost always dress in my “Sunday best” whenever I attend mass, I do think taking actions to improve the attire of those attending mass is a good thing, although I do not believe in either banning or throwing a person out for the way one dresses for mass.

Having a constant reminder in the form of signs describing modest dress at the entrances of the churches would be one help. I know some parishes already have something similar in their bulletins, but some people don’t read the bulletins. It is true that some people do dress immodestly (bums and breasts sticking out or skin tight clothing), so I think constant reminders on appropriate dress is important. I don’t know how well this would go over, but I know at the Duomo in Florence, they hand out paper coverups to anyone who they perceive as being immodestly dressed for even just entering the duomo. Bare shoulders/arms and bare cleavage must be covered. I knew the rules in those churches, so I always brought a sweater with me even though it was in the middle of the summer.

In regards to modest clothing, but inappopriate for mass (ie jeans, t-shirts, etc.) that’s a trickier thing. I know for some people - depending on their economic status, their clean jeans might be their nicest clothes. I also know that there are sometimes extenuating circumstances as to why a person may not be wearing their Sunday best. This happened to me a few Sundays ago. I was away at my family’s mountain home and I forgot to bring my skirt and top for mass. All I had were my jeans and a t-shirt. I hated wearing it, but at the same time I wasn’t going to miss mass just because I wasn’t appropriately dressed for me. This past weekend, my husband was working four 16 hour graveyard shifts from Friday to Tuesday morning. The only mass he could make was the Saturday Vigil, since he’d be working straight through Sunday morning. He had to go directly to work right after the mass, so he couldn’t wear his better clothes. So, he was in his work clothes, while I was in my church clothes for mass. Perhaps some people were being judgemental about it, but I would rather him be at mass than to miss because he was unable to wear his nicer attire.

 

[Rachel_J]

I find this a very interesting thread - I’m new to this board, and the church so I haven’t seen it before. What I find most interesting is how self-focused people are been.

What has really confused me about this topic the discussion of reverency. Flip flops are not immodest. Nor are shorts that end at the knee. Nor are sleeve less shirts.

Are they disrespectful to the Lord? I fail to see how. I’ve heard the argument elsewhere that “You wouldn’t wear that to visit the Queen”. It is absolutely correct - I’m not likely to ever meet the Queen, and if I was I would go out and buy a swanky outfit. She’s the Queen after all. I would wear what I wear to Church to meet the Queen however, if I had a meal with her every Sunday. Certainly if we shared a meal every day. Doubly so if she were my mother.

Regardless of that, why is it anyone elses business? I am showing more reverence to the Lord this week by showing up to mass than I did 12 months ago when I didn’t - regardless of what I am wearing. Even if it is a bikini. It may simply be that right now God has much bigger issues for someone to focus on - and they are showing appropriate reverance by their attitude to him and the “big” changes required than they can ever possibly show by “dressing up” for Church.

I think we need to be very careful when calling into doubt someones intention towards Christ. We can not see into their hearts - and it may be we are putting shame on something that pleases the Lord. It may not be perfectly pleaseing, but if we were capable of that, we would not need Christ.

I 100% support a parish priest teaching, both to the congragation and individually where required, that modest clothing is appropriate for mass. As we should be wearing in every day life. There is no need for it to go any further.

In terms of offering “covers”. No thanks. It would get the point across, but it would also “shame” them, and that might not be a good idea. We must remember that as much as we are required to be our brothers keeper, we are also required to be our sisters keeper. Any correction should be out of “love” - and shaming is never the appropriate first step when dealing with adults. I know that if someone had given me a cover if I was dressed immodestly upon my first steps into a Catholic Church it would have made a very negative impact. I would have taken it, I would have used it… and then if I came back it would have been quite a while and 5 times the struggle. I can be judged just as easily in the protestant churches.

 

[brigid12]

I’m sure Our Lord understands very well extenuating circumstances, however when a person knows they are going to be attending Mass (even if they’re not sure which Mass they’ll be able to catch) there are things that can be kept in the car, etc. for modesty sake. I personally deplore seeing flip-flops at Mass, probably since I see it as irreverent however at least they’re not immodest. I’ve commonly seen women tho’, who apparently were wearing tank-tops, have a sweater pulled over when the air-conditioning isn’t turned on and I applaud them. The sweater gives them modesty (and must be hot, so they can offer up their suffering).

 

[Cordelil]

The inappropriate attire at Catholic churches is a problem no doubt about that. I suppose in a perfect world the parish priests or presiding bishop or cardinal should lay down some edicts on it. However, that doesn’t seem to be happening to any discernible degree in Los Angeles. Of course, the Catholic heirarchy here is still wheeling from the after effects from the male clergy sex scandals and massive monetary payouts. That probably will continue for my lifetime. They appear to be on the defensive and have no moral capital to exert their influence with. Cardinal Mahoney who once was a respected community leader is now being criticized by the media and considered by many to have behaved poorly in the scandal. So, I see no change in the standards on the attire front and it may get worse since the clerical opposition appears to be nil.

John

 

[Sarabande]

I
I 100% support a parish priest teaching, both to the congragation and individually where required, that modest clothing is appropriate for mass. As we should be wearing in every day life. There is no need for it to go any further.

I agree with this. I think having the little signs at the entrances do work well because a priest can’t be talking about this at every single mass.

In terms of offering “covers”. No thanks. It would get the point across, but it would also “shame” them, and that might not be a good idea. We must remember that as much as we are required to be our brothers keeper, we are also required to be our sisters keeper. Any correction should be out of “love” - and shaming is never the appropriate first step when dealing with adults. I know that if someone had given me a cover if I was dressed immodestly upon my first steps into a Catholic Church it would have made a very negative impact. I would have taken it, I would have used it… and then if I came back it would have been quite a while and 5 times the struggle. I can be judged just as easily in the protestant churches.

That’s one of the reasons why I do not think it would go over well here in the States. When I was at the duomo in Florence, it was accepted and expected mainly because most of the people going into the cathedral were visitors just coming to see cathedral. Basically, we waited in line for almost an hour which surrounded the entire structure, to enter the cathedral. I understood that they had to enact something like this in order to keep it from becoming just a tourist attraction. They needed to remind the visitors that this was a house of God We were also instructed to be quiet, which we already knew because we’re Catholic or Protestant, but not everyone understands that.

For a regular parish here in the States, though, you wouldn’t need that. You don’t see tourists stopping in to see a town church unless they like to visit churches in general (in which case they would know the etiquette) or if they were visiting some of the larger or more historic churches/cathedrals in major cities/towns.

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps a homily series on modesty and chastity, followed by one on The Lord’s suffering and our response to that suffering in how we approach the mass - in reverence, in dress, and in demeanor in the house of Our Lord.

Peace
James

 

[FickleFreckled]

I wouldn’t hesitate to stop in on the spur of the moment to visit the Blessed Sacrament, regardless of what I was wearing nor would I discourage someone else from doing so. And it’s reasonable to expect shorts, etc. at a Mass that’s held outdoors at the close of a church festival or at Catholic teen events. But regular Saturday / Sunday Mass is a different setting. When we gather as a community for obligatory observances, we’re publicly expressing our unity with each other and with the Church. Besides the moral and religious issues surrounding modesty, we shouldn’t be doing or wearing anything that draws attention away from the Liturgy and onto ourselves.

I got a chuckle out of Kolbelover’s remark about wearing sandals - so, should the apostles have been wearing wing-tips?

 

[JRKH]

I wouldn’t hesitate to stop in on the spur of the moment to visit the Blessed Sacrament, regardless of what I was wearing nor would I discourage someone else from doing so. And it’s reasonable to expect shorts, etc. at a Mass that’s held outdoors at the close of a church festival or at Catholic teen events. But regular Saturday / Sunday Mass is a different setting. When we gather as a community for obligatory observances, we’re publicly expressing our unity with each other and with the Church. Besides the moral and religious issues surrounding modesty, we shouldn’t be doing or wearing anything that draws attention away from the Liturgy and onto ourselves.

I got a chuckle out of Kolbelover’s remark about wearing sandals - so, should the apostles have been wearing wing-tips?

Well said -
I guess most of us are thinking in terms of Sunday Mass. I don’t worry to much about clothing during the week. I think of these as “Working Man’s Masses”. We come as we are, blue jeans or whatever. - But Sundays, thats different.

Peace
James

 

[Kolbelover]

actually, the answer to the tongue-in-cheek (hopefully) musing about the apostles and sandals was covered well herein by those posters mentioning that we should not judge others for wearing “what they have” if that is indeed all they have…as there were no wingtips in the first century, it is a moot point what the apostles may or may not have worn!

In all seriousness, I may not have articulated my points very well…forgive me. I do not think anyone should be barred from attending Mass because of their attire. Shaming someone is ineffective and uncharitable. Rather, I DO think that the men in our respective families need to take the lead on the issue…

As for “pop-ins”… God help us if we ever feel we cannot meet Jesus in Adoration whenever we need to ! I just CAME from spending an hour with the Lord…totally impromptu. I was wearing shorts, t-shirt (and heaven help me!) SANDALS!

Mass IS special though…and we should strive to treat it as such…in all ways

 

[westboro]

I find this a very interesting thread - I’m new to this board, and the church so I haven’t seen it before. What I find most interesting is how self-focused people are been.

What has really confused me about this topic the discussion of reverency. Flip flops are not immodest. Nor are shorts that end at the knee. Nor are sleeve less shirts.

Are they disrespectful to the Lord? I fail to see how. I’ve heard the argument elsewhere that “You wouldn’t wear that to visit the Queen”. It is absolutely correct - I’m not likely to ever meet the Queen, and if I was I would go out and buy a swanky outfit. She’s the Queen after all. I would wear what I wear to Church to meet the Queen however, if I had a meal with her every Sunday. Certainly if we shared a meal every day. Doubly so if she were my mother.

Regardless of that, why is it anyone elses business? I am showing more reverence to the Lord this week by showing up to mass than I did 12 months ago when I didn’t - regardless of what I am wearing. Even if it is a bikini. It may simply be that right now God has much bigger issues for someone to focus on - and they are showing appropriate reverance by their attitude to him and the “big” changes required than they can ever possibly show by “dressing up” for Church.

I think we need to be very careful when calling into doubt someones intention towards Christ. We can not see into their hearts - and it may be we are putting shame on something that pleases the Lord. It may not be perfectly pleaseing, but if we were capable of that, we would not need Christ.

I 100% support a parish priest teaching, both to the congragation and individually where required, that modest clothing is appropriate for mass. As we should be wearing in every day life. There is no need for it to go any further.

In terms of offering “covers”. No thanks. It would get the point across, but it would also “shame” them, and that might not be a good idea. We must remember that as much as we are required to be our brothers keeper, we are also required to be our sisters keeper. Any correction should be out of “love” - and shaming is never the appropriate first step when dealing with adults. I know that if someone had given me a cover if I was dressed immodestly upon my first steps into a Catholic Church it would have made a very negative impact. I would have taken it, I would have used it… and then if I came back it would have been quite a while and 5 times the struggle. I can be judged just as easily in the protestant churches.

I don’t think it is about ‘reverence’ for the Lord at all. What we are wearing in the privacy of our homes, strictly between us and God probably does not matter when we are praying to Him. After all, He can see right ‘through’ us anyhow!
The point you seem to be missing is that what we wear in public does matter, because it can be an occasion of sin to others, by causing impure thoughts and desires. This fact becomes even greater when we dress immodestly to church because not only are we being an occasion of sin to others but we are ‘taking away’ the attention that would otherwise be given the Lord. In so far as being ‘specific’ about what is immodest, obviously everyone has their own ideas. When you begin saying this is OK or that is OK, it starts the ‘trend’ in the wrong direction. Therefore to ‘err’ in the direction of conservatism prevents confusion…which the devil loves to bring about in any attempt at people doing something for the Lord!

 

[FickleFreckled]

Am I giving the wrong impression? I do wear jeans to Mass, as do the majority of people at the Mass I attend. But not skin-tight, not shorts, and certainly not anything that could be considered immodest or attention-seeking.

 

[JRKH]

Am I giving the wrong impression? I do wear jeans to Mass, as do the majority of people at the Mass I attend. But not skin-tight, not shorts, and certainly not anything that could be considered immodest or attention-seeking.

By what you are saying here I would say you are not being “immodest”.

I would ask though if you consider jeans to be “Good” Attire. I don’t mean during the week or in a casual situation such as an outdoor mass, but on Sundays when you rise and prepare specifially to go to Church to visit and recieve Our Lord. When you go to your closet are jeans the best thing you own?

Let me ask a question that may shed light on this issue for many:

If you were preparing for a private personal audience at the vatican with The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, what sort of attire would you think appropriate?
The answer to that question might give a clue as to what is appropriate for visiting with, Not the “Vicar of Christ” but with Christ Himself.

Peace
James