Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[Tietjen]

My sons (6, 15, 18) have never really been an issue except not being thrilled at having to wear a suit to morning church. They have learned to accept it and stopped complaining years ago.

My oldest daughter (21) is one of those who had to be sent to her room repeatedly to change into something more appropriate for church. Some Sundays I thought we were never going to make it there! She is on her own now and she still dresses modestly and appropriately for church (especially Sunday morning).

I agree that parents set the standard for their children. (I remember in California that one of the deacons asked my husband how he managed to get our sons to wear suits. My husband looked at him quizzically and said “I just tell them”.)
I have stressed modesty to my children, especially my daughters, for years. They were not even allowed to purchase immodest attire to wear ever (and yes, I checked). Clothes shopping was very difficult but we perservered. (I did carefully explained why modesty is so important.) I just keep praying that by the grace of God they keep steadfast to the end.

Thank you. See I knew that the vast majority of parents who start setting the standards while their children are young, have an easier time of it when their children become teens. Great job mom

 

[Popes_Soldier]

I believe it’s worth considering that we are losing parishoners partly because we are watering down our worship! In places where orthodoxy is cultivated, we see spiritual renewal cropping up among the faithful. Catholics are tired of a wishy-washy, anything goes, feel-good, warm-fuzzy, cafeteria-style faith. And one tenet of this style is a loss of standards – of behavior, of morals, and even of dress. Therefore an awakening of true Catholic values, including modesty and reverence, can only help bring a starving mass of lukewarm believers back to vitality!

AMEN!!! Thats why, when possible, I travel 50 miles to go to a mass thats celeberated EXACTLY like they do it on EWTN. And everybody at THAT church is dressed nice.

 

[Chris-WA]

Another way to look at this is to understand that there are basically two-kinds of Catholics when it comes to this issue. The first kind is the kind that thinks the church should conform to their own personal desires, needs, and wants. The second kind is the kind who try to conform themselves to the church regardless of their own personal desires, needs, and wants. The first group is selfish and lacks humility and obedience. The second group has a good sense of humility and obedience, and realizes that they exist to serve God, not the other way around.

I was watching The Journey Home on EWTN last week and the guest was telling a story of how his bishop asked him to head up the adult faith formation program for the diocese. His bishop told him that the Catholic Church has lost two generations due to poor catechesis. I believe this is the underlying reason for most of the church’s problems in modern times. How can people love and respect what they don’t even know? So we need better catechesis not only for children, but more importantly for adults. It’s just not in Catholic culture for adults to continue formal faith formation throughout their lives. There is no expectation for this as there is for children to go through the sacraments. I believe that desperately needs to change on a world-wide basis if we are ever to fix all of these other problems.

Want to improve dress at mass? Have better adult faith formation.

Want to improve mass attendance? Have better adult faith formation.

Want kids to get taught the faith by their own parents? Have better adult faith formation.

Want to help Catholics see the evils of abortion and contraception? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to stop voting in so-called “Catholic” politicians who snub the Church’s teaching every chance they get? Have better adult faith formation.

Want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life? Have better adult faith formation.

Want people to tithe instead of putting in their piddly $1 in the basket every week when they can afford so much more? Have better adult faith formation.

Want people to take the sacrament of marriage, and all the other sacraments for that matter, more seriously? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to develop a love for scripture? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to learn what the Church really teaches? Have better adult faith formation.

 

[dandn5000]

Another way to look at this is to understand that there are basically two-kinds of Catholics when it comes to this issue. The first kind is the kind that thinks the church should conform to their own personal desires, needs, and wants. The second kind is the kind who try to conform themselves to the church regardless of their own personal desires, needs, and wants. The first group is selfish and lacks humility and obedience. The second group has a good sense of humility and obedience, and realizes that they exist to serve God, not the other way around.

I was watching The Journey Home on EWTN last week and the guest was telling a story of how his bishop asked him to head up the adult faith formation program for the diocese. His bishop told him that the Catholic Church has lost two generations due to poor catechesis. I believe this is the underlying reason for most of the church’s problems in modern times. How can people love and respect what they don’t even know? So we need better catechesis not only for children, but more importantly for adults. It’s just not in Catholic culture for adults to continue formal faith formation throughout their lives. There is no expectation for this as there is for children to go through the sacraments. I believe that desperately needs to change on a world-wide basis if we are ever to fix all of these other problems.

Want to improve dress at mass? Have better adult faith formation.

Want to improve mass attendance? Have better adult faith formation.

Want kids to get taught the faith by their own parents? Have better adult faith formation.

Want to help Catholics see the evils of abortion and contraception? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to stop voting in so-called “Catholic” politicians who snub the Church’s teaching every chance they get? Have better adult faith formation.

Want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life? Have better adult faith formation.

Want people to tithe instead of putting in their piddly $1 in the basket every week when they can afford so much more? Have better adult faith formation.

Want people to take the sacrament of marriage, and all the other sacraments for that matter, more seriously? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to develop a love for scripture? Have better adult faith formation.

Want Catholics to learn what the Church really teaches? Have better adult faith formation.

Before I start, I agree with you. We do need much better faith formation for all ages.

However, who’s gonna teach it? Who is going to go up there and volunteer to help these people learn?

In a lot of parishes, it’s a few people that do everything. The same people that sing at Mass are the ones on Parish Council and teach CCD and help out at all the gatherings, while others do nothing but show up to Mass and put in an offering.

We’re in the midst of a vicious cycle where people don’t volunteer to do things, possibly because of bad catechesis, but in order to better their knowledge, we have to get people to volunteer.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Well, I just got my wheels back (transportation) so now I can go back to the Latin mass I go to, which is in another town. I don’t have to see nasty clothes, goofy gestures by the people, listen to lousy music, and no one is going to try to hold my hand anymore. Thank God.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

I am 60 years old and I attend the TLM daily, but on Saturday nights I attend my parish of registry…as per diocesan request…and I am very, very saddened at the total disregard and disrespect shown by young and old alike at the NO parish. Women coming to Mass in short-shorts and low cut tops…men coming in jeans with holes like they had just finished mowing their lawns and kids with t-shorts with skulls and bones. Whatever happened to…at the very least wearing modest clothing and clean clothing? They dress like they are going to a rock concert instead of being with our Lord. This doesn’t even take into account the disrespectful behavior. I am grateful that the other 6 days a week I can go to where the people truly show respect at the TLM. I would never, ever go back to my NO parish if, like I said it weren’t part of the requirements of belonging to the TLM oratory. I would never step foot in there again.

 

[westboro]

Before I start, I agree with you. We do need much better faith formation for all ages.

However, who’s gonna teach it? Who is going to go up there and volunteer to help these people learn?

In a lot of parishes, it’s a few people that do everything. The same people that sing at Mass are the ones on Parish Council and teach CCD and help out at all the gatherings, while others do nothing but show up to Mass and put in an offering.

We’re in the midst of a vicious cycle where people don’t volunteer to do things, possibly because of bad catechesis, but in order to better their knowledge, we have to get people to volunteer.

I experienced the exact same frustration!!! Then I discovered Father Corapi!!! I have ‘listened’ to all 52 talks (1hour each) given by him on the Catechism o the Catholic Church and I know more today than I ever did in my 57 years of ‘ignorance’! I urge anyone and everyone to tune into him Sunday nights on EWTN at 8:00PM for his weekly Catechism teaching. You won’t be disappointed! He has been called the John the Baptist of modern times and I agree!
I have listened to well over a hundred of his talks on a variety of Catholic issues that pertain to our religion and faith. It is like ‘listening’ to Jesus Himself, who speaks ONLY the truth!!!
If you can afford a ‘solid’ investment, go to his website where you can purchase any of his talks in any format. My only recommendation would be to ‘start’ by ordering his ‘personal’ story which is a powerful testimony itself and will give you an idea of his very ‘experienced’ background. He truly KNOWS his stuff!!
I have NO connection with Fr Corapi other than gratitude for his ministry and my only motive is to get the word out of the incredible opportunity there is to ‘learn’ their catechism the ‘easy’ way!!!

 

[Popes_Soldier]

I am 60 years old and I attend the TLM daily, but on Saturday nights I attend my parish of registry…as per diocesan request…and I am very, very saddened at the total disregard and disrespect shown by young and old alike at the NO parish. Women coming to Mass in short-shorts and low cut tops…men coming in jeans with holes like they had just finished mowing their lawns and kids with t-shorts with skulls and bones. Whatever happened to…at the very least wearing modest clothing and clean clothing? They dress like they are going to a rock concert instead of being with our Lord. This doesn’t even take into account the disrespectful behavior. I am grateful that the other 6 days a week I can go to where the people truly show respect at the TLM. I would never, ever go back to my NO parish if, like I said it weren’t part of the requirements of belonging to the TLM oratory. I would never step foot in there again.

AMEN !!

http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/etc/dec11/a-SJN-latinmass.jpg

 

[Chris-WA]

Before I start, I agree with you. We do need much better faith formation for all ages.

However, who’s gonna teach it? Who is going to go up there and volunteer to help these people learn?

In a lot of parishes, it’s a few people that do everything. The same people that sing at Mass are the ones on Parish Council and teach CCD and help out at all the gatherings, while others do nothing but show up to Mass and put in an offering.

We’re in the midst of a vicious cycle where people don’t volunteer to do things, possibly because of bad catechesis, but in order to better their knowledge, we have to get people to volunteer.

You are right when you say that in many parishes a few people do most of the work. I would say that’s true in almost all parishes. And the reason for it is simple–for some reason our church got into what I call the “sign up at the back of the church” way of getting things done. In other words, everything is voluntary, and we all know that it’s human nature for most people not to volunteer. So what probably really needs to happen is that the pastor needs to call parishoners in for personal meetings and ask them to take on different jobs instead of waiting for people to sign up on their own. Who is going to stare their priest in the face and say no? We need to build up an expectation that if you’re going to be a member of a parish, then the parish expects you to do more than show up for mass once a week. I think that expectation used to exist in past times, and I don’t know when it changed.

Now, as far as who is going to teach this stuff, you don’t need people with masters degrees in theology and church history (sometimes they’re worse anyway). There are so many great materials, lesson plans, videos, and programs to choose from that the teachers are mostly facilitators anyway. Heck, if somebody just recorded The Journey Home or Father Corapi’s talks on the Catechism on EWTN every week and made a class on that, that would be a huge step forward. They don’t have to come up with the stuff themselves. There are also a lot of lousy materials out there put out by modern, liberal Catholics who tend to subvert the church rather than faithfully teach its doctrines, so you would have to stay clear of that. I would think anything found on EWTN or Catholic Answers would be a great start.

I do think its important that the parish pastor actively recruit parish members for these jobs rather than sit back and wait for volunteers.

 

[maggiemay2u]

That begs the question of what other issues the parents have no control. It starts somewhere with mom and dad. If dad is wearing the polo shirt and jeans and mom is wearing the tank top, then more than likely, they will fall into the “better they wear shorts then not show up” school of thought.

Would that wash to meet the Pope? I doubt. Then how in the world does that wash to be in His presence?

I think just occaisionally the two do fight against each other Tietjen.

For example if I had a tenager going through an “awkward” phase who refused to go to mass unless they could wear shorts that I thought were a little too tight then I’d let them wear shorts (thank God, my teenagers have never been a problem, so I haven’t had to deal with this personally).

I think at the end of the day we can only lead by example, dress well oursleves and have some control over our children (obviously we steasily let go of direct control as they mature).

 

[Badaliyyah]

Would that wash to meet the Pope? I doubt. Then how in the world does that wash to be in His presence?

…as if we are not in the presence of Christ all the time. This is not about the presence of Christ or respect for God. If it were…well showering would be more awkward at the very least.

We dress up for one another and most of the time its silly. I am not saying we shouldn’t dress in a manner that’s culturally appropriate, but let’s be clear what we are talking about here. Are tank tops and jeans culturally appropriate clothing for a this type of gathering in America? Obviously there are quite a few people here that feel the answer is no, but judging by what Americans wear and the wide variety of functions that precisely that type of dress does in fact serve, one certainly has a hard time saying its not.

As for modesty, as long as people are wearing what they would wear in any other major public gathering then I find it pretty hard to complain. If what people are wearing in church is distracting you, you probably spend most of your life distracted because people are wearing that clothing in very normal situations (classrooms, fairs, football games, walking the street, eating dinner at a restaurant, etc.) every day.

I suppose the reply would be that for Christians the liturgy ought to be the center of our lives somehow. It is a formative moment where we learn who we are and who we are to be before God and with one another. It is the center of our participation in the life of God. But no matter how central it is, it is not as if at some point people thought you ought to wear tuxedos and ball gowns to Liturgy (the highest in Anglo-European formal wear). AND at the point at which people thought you ought to wear a suit and tie or a nice dress to Liturgy, they also thought you would wear that type of clothing out on a date, to a restaurant for dinner or to a concert. It was the clothing that people wore in a variety of other situations (at least if you had the money). This is clearly no longer the case.

salaam.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

…as if we are not in the presence of Christ all the time…

So, you are comparing approaching the altar and the Eucharist, with, say, any other daily activity… doing the laundry, or going to the bathroom? Thats pretty weak.

 

[maggiemay2u]

So, you are comparing approaching the altar and the Eucharist, with, say, any other daily activity… doing the laundry, or going to the bathroom? Thats pretty weak.

Absolutely on target, thanks.

I see folks dressed in business suits during the week. Come the weekend, these same men and women stroll into church in the polo shirt-Capri pant numbers.

That whole cultural thing is code-speak for too lazy to dress appropriately, and teach our children to do the same. In one of the parables, Christ talks about the king who tosses out the ingrates who come to the feast inappropriately attired. Regardless of the metaphor, He seemed to recognize a dress code.

Besides, we’re not supposed to be everyone else, we’re supposed to be Catholics.

 

[surfinpure]

We dress up for one another and most of the time its silly.

Please speak only for yourself. When I dress for Mass, I dress to be in the presence of the Eucharist – the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Furthermore, I dress to enter the gateway between Heaven and Earth, where the angels and saints are present, taking place in the same act of worship. I dress for the literal hour of Christ’s death, not the memory or representation thereof.

I am not saying we shouldn’t dress in a manner that’s culturally appropriate, but let’s be clear what we are talking about here. Are tank tops and jeans culturally appropriate clothing for a this type of gathering in America? Obviously there are quite a few people here that feel the answer is no, but judging by what Americans wear and the wide variety of functions that precisely that type of dress does in fact serve, one certainly has a hard time saying its not.

Are you then saying there can be no standard, and thus taking the position of relativism? That is a dangerous road…

 

[Badaliyyah]

Please speak only for yourself. When I dress for Mass, I dress to be in the presence of the Eucharist – the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Furthermore, I dress to enter the gateway between Heaven and Earth, where the angels and saints are present, taking place in the same act of worship. I dress for the literal hour of Christ’s death, not the memory or representation thereof.

Are you then saying there can be no standard, and thus taking the position of relativism? That is a dangerous road…

If you dress that way it is because you think that whatever it is that you are putting on that morning is an appropriate way to dress. This judgement on your part is culturally rooted. It may be true that you are not only communicating to the other persons there that this is an important event to you, but that you are also communicating this to God. Nonetheless, the “language” (i.e., the actual clothing) that you use to communicate this is cultural. The idea to wear that new blazer over a white blouse and a pair of slacks did not occur to you by divine revelation on Sunday morning. No one reinvents the idea of clothing and fashion out of nothing when they dress (though occasionally, one is left to wonder). Nor do they instill it with meaning by a private act of their will. If you try to speak in the language of an archaic or foreign culture, you risk being misunderstood by those who are not fluent in that language. The truth of the matter is that you live in a culture where the blazer and slacks have a certain meaning (indeed the outfit probably has several even within your local community - not all of which you intend). That is why you chose it. We dress with and for one another.

I did not say there was no standard. I said the standard for dress and what is and is not immodest is cultural. Not only that, but within the culture the standard is itself quite fluid.

I am sorry (and even a bit puzzled and confused) if you find the fact that ‘clothing styles and standards of modesty change over time and also vary depending on where you are even now’ to be a dangerous idea. It must be a very dangerous world out there.

salaam.

 

[Badaliyyah]

So, you are comparing approaching the altar and the Eucharist, with, say, any other daily activity… doing the laundry, or going to the bathroom? Thats pretty weak.

I said we need to be clear what we are talking about. The issue is not whether or not one is in the presence of God. This is true all the time. I also specifically addressed the importance of the Liturgy in Christian life.

In contrast to what you say, in the post I pointed out that in the previous century people wore clothing to church that was comparable to going out to eat at someones house, going out on a date, going out to a nice restaurant, etc. Those were the type of social activities actually I compared it to (in terms of the standards for clothing and modesty).

People did not dress for it as if they were going to the bathroom, or lazing around the house. On the other hand, people also did not dress for Liturgy as if they were attending a high formal function (Liturgy was not a black tie affair, even at the highest feast day of the year when it was, for a time traditional, to buy (or sew) a new outfit hums the theme to Easter Parade).

Do people wear suits and ties, e.g., in a wide variety of social settings today? At the very least one has to say that the range of settings in which the suit and tie is the norm is rapidly shrinking. For most of us in America, it is, even in a professional setting, frankly abnormal. What we DO see in the parish is clothing very similar to what people wear in other public gatherings from the classroom, to dinner at a restaurant, to the office.

salaam.

 

[Badaliyyah]

I see folks dressed in business suits during the week. Come the weekend, these same men and women stroll into church in the polo shirt-Capri pant numbers.

That whole cultural thing is code-speak for too lazy to dress appropriately, and teach our children to do the same. In one of the parables, Christ talks about the king who tosses out the ingrates who come to the feast inappropriately attired. Regardless of the metaphor, He seemed to recognize a dress code.

I did not say we ought to disregard the idea of a standard of dress. In fact I very explicitly said exactly the opposite. What I said was that people were in fact following the standard of dress. Rarely (never?) have I seen people show up to church in clothing that they could not also wear to dinner at a restaurant immediately following the service.

If you have a problem with what people are wearing to church, you do not have a problem with what they are WEARING TO CHURCH, you have a much broader problem with cultural standards of dress: what people wear to church is what people are wearing in a variety of public functions.

For more detail, see the above two posts…

salaam.

 

[maggiemay2u]

Where do you attend Mass? For that matter, where do you live? Those are rhetorical, by the way, but in light of this quote, as well as a previous one of yours “As for modesty, as long as people are wearing what they would wear in any other major public gathering then I find it pretty hard to complain. If what people are wearing in church is distracting you, you probably spend most of your life distracted because people are wearing that clothing in very normal situations (classrooms, fairs, football games, walking the street, eating dinner at a restaurant, etc.) every day.”, I am curious as all dickens.

You must go to some very dressy football games, and the last fair I attended, most of the women were in halter tops and short-shorts.

MOST people come to Mass appropriately attired.The standard of dress varies from situation. The house of the Lord calls for something better than for a trip to Denny’s or a Niner game. There are a few lazy types who don’t want to be bothered, and there are pathetic ones who don’t know.

As I previously noted, Christ recognized a dress code, as does the Vatican. Your acquiescence to the casual attire with which you are comfortable is your business.

I did not say we ought to disregard the idea of a standard of dress. In fact I very explicitly said exactly the opposite. What I said was that people were in fact following the standard of dress. Rarely (never?) have I seen people show up to church in clothing that they could not also wear to dinner at a restaurant immediately following the service.

If you have a problem with what people are wearing to church, you do not have a problem with what they are WEARING TO CHURCH, you have a much broader problem with cultural standards of dress: what people wear to church is what people are wearing in a variety of public functions.

For more detail, see the above two posts…

salaam.

 

[Badaliyyah]

MOST people come to Mass appropriately attired.The standard of dress varies from situation. The house of the Lord calls for something better than for a trip to Denny’s or a Niner game. There are a few lazy types who don’t want to be bothered, and there are pathetic ones who don’t know.

As I previously noted, Christ recognized a dress code, as does the Vatican. Your acquiescence to the casual attire with which you are comfortable is your business.

Leaving aside the quip about football games, where my point was that if you were being distracted by peoples clothing at church the rest of your life must be real hell…[though Saturday evening services at Latin parishes do drift even more toward clothes you would wear to the movies…which is a more common Saturday evening activity].

My point was not to disregard standards of dress. I have said that not once, but twice before. Instead what I pointed out was that in the prior century people wore clothing to church that had analogs in other aspects of daily life. While people dressed up for Sunday, they were also dressing up for school (especially if they went to private school where a uniform might include blazers and slacks, with a tie), work (the office regularly expected suit and tie), going out to dinner whether in a restaurant or at another persons house was not a casual affair, or a concert, etc. That is quite simply no longer true. The clothing in question is increasingly socially irrelevant.

Children rarely dress up for even a school picture any longer. Is it a surprise that they are resistant to and see through an attempt to dress them in odd clothing that they wear for nothing else when they go to church? They recognize that it is socially meaningless. The office is no longer dominated by the suit…in fact it is becoming rather endangered. Jeans are universal at restaurants as well as for showing up at an person’s house for dinner (and I do not mean a good friend/family…I mean like dinner with your boss and their family).

People are still dressing for church using the same social comparators that their parents and grandparents used. But the standard for those comparators has changed. In my opinion that is all we are seeing in American churches. A certain way of dressing is not just disappearing from churches; it is disappearing period.

On the other hand, if we, who seem to disagree about what constitutes appropriate clothing for church nonetheless agree that the vast majority of persons are fittingly attired, I am not sure why this silly thread exists. Where is the supposed problem that has managed to generate a thread of this length and vigor. I don’t get it.

salaam.

 

[Tietjen]

…as if we are not in the presence of Christ all the time. This is not about the presence of Christ or respect for God. If it were…well showering would be more awkward at the very least.

Big difference here. Yes, God is omnipresent. However, your statement seems to imply that the Eucharist means nothing. I am very sure that your Priest would disagree with your statement. Christ is present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist (See the Council of Trent). Please tell me in what other circumstance you can actually see and physically touch God.

If what people are wearing in church is distracting you, you probably spend most of your life distracted because people are wearing that clothing in very normal situations (classrooms, fairs, football games, walking the street, eating dinner at a restaurant, etc.) every day.

Not so. When a person goes to the beach they wear a bathing suit. When they go to an important business meeting they dress the part. When they go to a job interview they generally don’t show up in sandals and a tank top. When they go to a football game, 99% are found wearing suits. So, if they can get it right (and dress for the occassion) for these events, why is it that when it comes to standing before the God of the universe they screw it up?!