Should Tridentine and N.O. Liturgy co-exist?

[catholiclady]

As a traditionalist I prefer the Tridentine Mass and will attend it at every opportunity. I have already noticed on this forum that there seems to be those who think it should be the ONLY MASS, those who think the N.O. should be the ONLY MASS, those who don’t care, etc. I thought a poll might be intersting.

You can make more than one selection on this poll so long as they do not contradict each other.

 

[Bud_Stewart]

Last summer on a trip to Baltimore I had the pleasure of taking part in a Tridentine Mass celebrated at The Baltimore Basilica. It was a truly wonderful experience. I would be pleased if I could worship this way more often, but I would not like losing the Mass in the vernacular. So, I would like to see both celebrated.

 

[tee_eff_em]

What is a “N.O. Liturgy”…?

tee

 

[Iohannes]

tee_eff_em:

What is a “N.O. Liturgy”…?

tee

It is the Novus Ordo Missae.

 

[Mjohn1453]

The Novus Ordo Mass is N.O. the Mass post Vatican 2.

Your question would better be would you like Novus Ordo as it was supposed to be coming out of Vatican 2. not the way it was implemented.

 

[Iohannes]

To clarify something, the Council did not call for a Novus Ordo Missae. It basically called for the vernaculatization of the Tridentine Liturgy which resulted in the 1965 Missal found here:
coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

It would be better if the 1965 and 1962 Mass coexisted instead, it would have easier time doing so.

 

[Dolly]

In reading Iohannes comments, I had a thought that I had not really dwelt on much before. Maybe there should be another category also in the poll:should we keep the Novus Ordo Missae and the 1965 Missal?

Just beginning to mull the thought over, but it would allow the the vernacular with the Tridentine liturgy, would it not, and yet not deny the Missal of Pope Paul VI. I know there are those Catholics who believe there should be no vernacular and just Latin, but that is ahistorical. In hindsight, the fear the magisterium had of allowing both liturgies at the same time, therefore supressing the Tridentine, was misplaced I think. By allowing both the N.O. and the 1965 missal, you restore to equal status both and also don’t pit vernacular vs latin, imho.

Anyone else think that might or might not have worked if it were tried?

 

[Iohannes]

I think 1965 Missal should be the norm once again here is the reason why:
-The 1965 Missal is a clear continuation of the 1962 Missal only differences is the omission of the Last Gospel and Psalm 42.
-It can be celebrated in the vernacular
-It can be celebrated versus ad populum(facing the people)
-It has a better translation than the Novus Ordo Missae.
-has fewer options so it will be much more difficult to introduce liturgical abuse*
-there is more active “participation”
-It is in sync with the 1962 Calender and feasts
-It is the missal that did what Vatican II asked for
-The lectionary is in sync with the 1962 Missal.
-and since that Missal was issued, it was suppose to be the norm after Vatican II.

With that all the restrictions should be lifted 1962 Missal, so that people who want to hear the ancient Latin Language can do so.

*the biggest reason being no discipline is being enforced and often abuse is rewarded. With all the options in the N.O.M, it may be easier to introduce abuse.

 

[DrCat]

Should they co-exist? Of course. I lived my first years in the Tridentine. By the time I came back, all we had was the Novus Ordo.

Might as well have asked why they shouldn’t co-exist.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Mjohn1453:

The Novus Ordo Mass is N.O. the Mass post Vatican 2.

Your question would better be would you like Novus Ordo as it was supposed to be coming out of Vatican 2. not the way it was implemented.

Oh, you mean the Mass…the current Mass…the Mass-with-no-other-adjectives…

(on a crusade against using a term, novus ordo, that the Church herself does not use)

 

[catholiclady]

I remember that Missal - and I wondered what happened to get it from there to where it is today. There were still parts said in Latin however as was the intent of Vatican II. and the people could also recite the server’s part - (dialogue Mass). In fact I have in my hand as I write the New St. Joseph’s Missal and Hymnal. It still begins with those beautiful words, before ICEL, that say “I will go to the altar of God.” with the response being, “To God who gives joy to my youth”

All of your suggestions as to how this poll could have been improved upon are valid but since I didn’t think of them, we can still make comments as you all have been doing.

Thanks for participating.

 

[catholiclady]

tee_eff_em:

Oh, you mean the Mass…the current Mass…the Mass-with-no-other-adjectives…

(on a crusade against using a term, novus ordo, that the Church herself does not use)

Guess we know how you voted

I understand your crusade, however sometimes, such as this instance, it is less confusing to people if we use terms to differentiate the current Mass from the Indult Mass aka. the Traditional Latin Mass or the Tridentine Mass, the Mass of the Ages, and on and on I take no offense at any term used to describe it. I have also seen reference to the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal, the 1965 Missal and/or the Current Missal.

 

[tee_eff_em]

catholiclady:

Guess we know how you voted

I understand your crusade, however sometimes, such as this instance, it is less confusing to people if we use terms to differentiate the current Mass from the Indult Mass aka. the Traditional Latin Mass or the Tridentine Mass, the Mass of the Ages, and on and on I take no offense at any term used to describe it. I have also seen reference to the Mass in accordance with the 1962 Missal, the 1965 Missal and/or the Current Missal.

I guess you’d be mistaken – I haven’t voted

Is the “Novus so-called Ordo” according to the 1965 Missal, the 1970 Missal, the 1975 Missal or the 2001 Missal

Would you like to meet my new daughter? She had her 12th birthday last week!

Would you like to by a new car from me? I’ll give you a steep discount over those other new car dealers. (I called my car “new” when I bought it 7 years ago, so I can still call it that, right?)

 

[dcs]

tee_eff_em:

Is the “Novus so-called Ordo” according to the 1965 Missal, the 1970 Missal, the 1975 Missal or the 2001 Missal

The term Novus Ordo Missae encompasses the three latest Missals – 1970, 1975, and 2000. There are not significant enough differences between the three to justify another term – unless you’re a specialist, in which case the years will do nicely.

I think the term originated with the Missal presented to Paul VI in 1967 and rejected by the Synod of Bishops that same year.

The 1965 Missal was a transitional Missal and I really don’t think it is a good long-term solution. It is too traditional for the progressives and too progressive for the traditionalists.

 

[catholiclady]

Your car is still new to you and so is your daughter. Since I am 71, the current Mass is still new to me and will be unless it is replaced by an old one or a newer one.

 

[tee_eff_em]

dcs:

I think the term originated with the Missal presented to Paul VI in 1967 and rejected by the Synod of Bishops that same year.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Missal, or other document of the Church, which calls the current Mass “Novus Ordo”. While Pope Paul VI did use the adjective “novus” when he promulgated the Missal 35 years ago, it can hardly be construed as part of the name.

I just think it would be common courtesy to use the name the Church herself uses for the Mass.

 

[tee_eff_em]

catholiclady:

Your car is still new to you and so is your daughter.

My car is not still new to me, thank you. And while my daughter continues to grow and learn and exhibit new behaviors, I would hardly continue to call her new.

catholiclady:

Since I am 71, the current Mass is still new to me and will be unless it is replaced by an old one or a newer one.

I don’t see what one’s age has to do with it. If the current Mass were replaced, would you call the replacement the *Vetus Ordo * or Novior Ordo, accordingly? How very post-modern (not to mention confusing)…

 

[catholiclady]

Give it a rest - I have more important things to discuss.

 

[Iohannes]

I have no complaints calling the Traditional Latin Mass, Tridentine Mass even though the name Tridentine is innaccurate itself. I really do not see the big fuss calling the current rite Novus Ordo. I use it to help distinguish the two rites.

 

[dcmac]

“Besides, this celebration has reassured many of the faithful that the venerable Rite of Saint Pius V, which enjoys in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church a “right of citizenship,” as I said in my homily. There can be no doubt about the fact that this Rite has not been extinguished.”

“In the rite which it is celebrated in all the Latin Catholic Church, that is in accordance with the Novus Ordo. Celebrating the Mass in accordance with the Rite approved by Paul VI, I have to say that I found a richness of love and devotion that personally satisfies me…That does not mean that I do not reserve a great love for the Holy Mass in accordance with the Rite of Saint Pius V, which was the Mass of my priestly ordination and if my first years in the priesthood.”

Both quotations being found in the exclusive written interview of Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos, Prefect for the Congregation of the Clergy, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, and the Latin Mass, A journal of Catholic Culture magazine Vol. 13, No. 2, Spring 2004.

I guess someone ought to get the memo to the good cardinal that he is in error using the term ‘Novus Ordo’ ASAP!

Since both services are, and have been, valid since the reforms of VCII, they already do in fact co-exist. The real problem being that there is no teeth, enforcement in the directives of the Holy See on the matter. Hence the abuses and refusal on the part of so many of the west’s episcopacy with regard to this issue.

This, of course, is the very reason there needs to be a canonical jurisdiction created for the rite of Saint Pius V across the globe, just as there is for the Canonical Jurisdiction of St. John Vianney, in Compos, Brazil.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and By the Grace of God a future priest,

Donnchadh