Should Tridentine and N.O. Liturgy co-exist?

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Hi DC - are you a Seminarian? I lived in Colorado Springs for a couple of years and went to the Tridentine Mass there which was being celebrated at St. Mary’s (now in Fountain) and also went to one in Denver (Fr. Salgado).

I think Bishops Sheridan and Chaput are very good bishops. But some of the N.O. Masses I attended there were somewhat “abusive” I thought. But then 3 years ago I moved to the Phoenix Diocese and really learned the meaning of liturgical abuse:rolleyes: . Fortunately we now have a new Bishop here, one Catholics true to the faith can be proud of and in record time he granted permission for the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated here. I know he will be working on getting rid of some of the liturgical abuses here too but that will take time. In the interim I am thankful that I can go to the Tridentine Masses.

I too pray that there will be a resolution to the SSPX separated Catholic brothers and sisters and that we will all be one again.
 
There are already more than two Rites of Mass. I speak of Melkite, Chaldean, Ukranian, Byzantium and other Catholic Rites, all with their own liturgies, that have existed for centuries. During the 1990’s, a new Rite was begun - Anglican Catholic. It allows entire Anglican (Episcopal) congregations to enter the Catholic Church together. I attended an Anglican Catholic Mass in the Boston area, and was pleasantly surpised that the rubrics specify kneeling for the reception of the Eucharist! It was wonderful:D I believe the Council of Trent only suppressed those Rites which had not existed for at least two hundred years prior to the Council. That’s where we got all of these different fully valid and licit traditions from.
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catholiclady:
As a traditionalist I prefer the Tridentine Mass and will attend it at every opportunity. I have already noticed on this forum that there seems to be those who think it should be the ONLY MASS, those who think the N.O. should be the ONLY MASS, those who don’t care, etc. I thought a poll might be intersting.

You can make more than one selection on this poll so long as they do not contradict each other.
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There are already more than two Rites of Mass. I speak of Melkite, Chaldean, Ukranian, Byzantium and other Catholic Rites, all with their own liturgies, that have existed for centuries. During the 1990’s, a new Rite was begun - Anglican Catholic. It allows entire Anglican (Episcopal) congregations to enter the Catholic Church together. I attended an Anglican Catholic Mass in the Boston area, and was pleasantly surpised that the rubrics specify kneeling for the reception of the Eucharist! It was wonderful:D I believe the Council of Trent only suppressed those Rites which had not existed for at least two hundred years prior to the Council. That’s where we got all of these different fully valid and licit traditions from.
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catholiclady:
As a traditionalist I prefer the Tridentine Mass and will attend it at every opportunity. I have already noticed on this forum that there seems to be those who think it should be the ONLY MASS, those who think the N.O. should be the ONLY MASS, those who don’t care, etc. I thought a poll might be intersting.

You can make more than one selection on this poll so long as they do not contradict each other.
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Yes, I am aware of all these other rites and no Indult is needed to attend them which may be my point after all. I don’t see why the Tridentine rite is suppressed and needs consent of the local bishop to be licitly celebrated. Hopefully this will change.

I have heard good things about the Anglican use rite but it is available only in a select few states and in fact Massachusetts and Texas may be the only states in the U.S.
 
South Carolina still has an Anglican Use personal parish, but from what I understand, it uses the standard Novus Ordo missal but celebrated Ad Orientum.
 
I have never actually attended an Anglican Use rite but I thought they used the Tridentine Rite however someone told me they used inclusive language in their readings …

I suppose they have a web site.
 
Yes I see it is very similar to the N.O. Mass but not exactly.

I noted they have a Solemn High Mass - at one of their sites and the hymns had Latin Titles.

I thought it was neither Tridentine or N.O. but the Church of England in origin.
 
Last week I attended a Tridentine Mass for the first time since my youth and I must say, the Tridentine Mass really brings home Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a way that the N.O. Mass doesn’t. I was struck by the depth of the spiritual plane on which the Tridentine Mass was celebrated, especially in comparison with the showbiz communal feel of the N.O. Mass. Consequently, I believe the Tridentine Mass should be more readily available (I had to travel 30 minutes to the nearest Tridentine Mass) for all to see and experience its majesty, beauty and spirituality and thereby deepen their Catholic faith. It was a joy to experience a Mass which focused on Christ and His sacrifice and was devoid of N.O. distractions such as folk music, singsong hymns, gladhanding, handholding and handraising in mimicry of the priest by the laity. Why can’t every parish have at least one Tridentine Mass each Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation? Many parishes have at least one foreign language N.O. Mass–

PS With the Tridentine Mass, it is so much easier to see the truth of Scott Hahn’s insight that the meaning of the Book of Revelations is revealed in the Mass
 
I too am traveling 30 minutes but would travel twice that far since it is only the past two Sundays that this has even been available in our Diocese - in fact it is the first time ever in this Diocese (The Diocese of Phoenix was established post Vatican II).

The last 3 years I have gone to Mass as a Sunday obligation, not wanting to go because I knew most Sundays I would just leave Church angry no matter how hard I tried to just focus on Christ and not on the liturgical abuses and silliness. So for me it was like heaven and I can’t wait until next Sunday until I can go again. Now I must pray for a daily Tridentine Mass.
 
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catholiclady:
Yes I see it is very similar to the N.O. Mass but not exactly.

I noted they have a Solemn High Mass - at one of their sites and the hymns had Latin Titles.

I thought it was neither Tridentine or N.O. but the Church of England in origin.
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BCP=Book of Common Prayer

Technically, the Anglican Use in origin is a mulitiated form of the Sarum Use. When England was cut off from Rome, The Sarum Mass was gradually dismantled. It went from Sarum Use to 1549 BCP which was still Catholic enough, then finally ended up 1552 BCP which was protestantized. Does something here sound familiar?
Summary: Sarum > 1549 BCP(interm missal) > 1552 BCP

Many years later 1979 U.S BCP + Novus Ordo Missae = Anglican Use.

Many years later, Anglicans in the U.S were dissatisfied with their protestant church over women priests, they decided to go home to Rome. Rome allowed them to keep their Mass with Novus Ordo Missae corrections and King James English.

Despite the fact Anglican Use is technically Novus Ordo/BCP hybrid, many bishops fear the Mass because, they are almost like traditionalist without latin. They cannot claim the Anglican Use folks reject the N.O or are crazy for Latin. They maintain a traditional praxis with their Missal(no altar girls, no EMHC, Communion-in-tongue, Kneeling for Communion, chants, kneeling, Roman Canon, King James English).

The Bishops are also afraid that their liberal Anglican golfing partners may get angry.

Anglican Use, much closer to what Vatican II intended.

Check out their DVD Mass.
 
Catholic lady,

I am not enrolled in the St. John Vianney Seminary here in Colorado. I don’t want to bore people with my personal story, but I need to give some detail so you can see the ‘why’ in relation to the 'what’ of my response.

I am from an Irish Catholic family. Born, baptized, and confirmed a Catholic. However, in high school I lost my faith falling pray to the philosophy of my instructors into a moral relativism that was based in liberal quasi-socialism. A result of that being that I was a horrible, sinful young man in high school. Through much personal indiscretion before (others) and during my engagement my ex-fiancee we became pregnant and we had an abortion. After that we could not look at each other, nor stand to be around each other. I was totally caught off guard by this feeling I had. Naturally we split up and I became depressed over both the abortion and the split up. I began to question everything I thought I believed and began my way back into the Catholic Church…coming back while at Cherry Creek State Park on August 15, 1993 at the World Youth Day in Denver, Colorado. Man what a great, great feeling that was!!!

While in undergraduate school in 1996 I began to discern a possible priestly, religious vocation. That ended in 2001 with my belief that I was not called. However, during that time I spent one year in the “Insight” program at St. John Vianney Seminary with Fr. Hilton as our spiritual advisor. Yet, I used my pastor as my priest-confessor and I followed his advice more so than anyone else because he was my priest-confessor and my pastor. He convinced me I was too “conservative” for a priestly vocation, as the Church was “moving forward in progression, not backward in regression”. So I went back to school and tried to live a “normal” life. That was pure misery! I could not do anything that others did. I could not resist the pull I felt towards the Church. Dating was impossible, as my “heart wasn’t in it” anymore.

Through the aid of my new priest-confessor and spiritual director, Fr. Joseph, O.F.M. I am now certain of my calling to the priesthood. However, finding a home is…difficult at best. I have no problem with the Novus Ordo Missae when done properly. In fact I find it a lovely service. Yet, I can not escape the pull I feel to more traditional forms of the public celebration of the mass. I have been attending three different services with great regularity. My parish, which is NOM and now has a great orthodox priest (he’s Vietnamese…and more people should be so lucky as to have a foreign priest…much greater devotion there!); the St. Pius V service through the efforts of the F.S.S.P., and the one I am fast falling in love with, the new (roughly a year) Maronite service.

Fr. Joseph said I should focus on a religious community that will allow me to utilize my gifts in a more traditional manner, or, the Maronites who have had a major, major impact on my life over the past year.

I would say that I am personally wanting a secular parochial ministry (archdiocesan). But, with that I am not guaranteed the ability to minister in a traditional way. While I can now, that may not be the case in the future and I don’t want to cross that bridge when it comes. Yet, that leaves me with only an ordered ministry or a canonical switch to the Maronites, which is also very much an ordered ministry. I am spending the bulk of this summer to discern where to apply and then go from there.

Sorry to ramble, but your question required a more detailed answer.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,

Donnchadh
 
Well you will certainly be in my prayers and I am sure all the forum will pray for your vocation and that of all priests.

I personally know some FFSP priests and they are definitely well formed and traditional in every way. One such priest, Fr. Fritchen in Colorado Springs came late to the priesthood as well and was ordained at age 40.

About what you were told at N.O. Seminary - I know of at least 3 people who had to leave Seminaries because they were told they were “too traditional” (the one mentioned above is one of them), another now teaches theology at Strake College in Texas and yet another is in Canada and a Catholic writer. One of them, was even told he would not fit in because he was not “gay enough” by his fellow seminarians as well.

Pretty sad - but I think they are improving and one must just carefully choose which seminary they go to in advance
 
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catholiclady:
The last 3 years I have gone to Mass as a Sunday obligation, not wanting to go because I knew most Sundays I would just leave Church angry no matter how hard I tried to just focus on Christ and not on the liturgical abuses and silliness. So for me it was like heaven and I can’t wait until next Sunday until I can go again. Now I must pray for a daily Tridentine Mass.
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I suspect we have discussed the tridentine mass in Phoenix on another forum.

If you have been upset with Sunday Masses for 3 years, then you haven’t tried very hard to find a good abuse-free mass and/or parish. There are plenty of them in the Phoenix Diocese, and they’re not very hard to find.

And as you know, when granting the Indult the bishop asked that folks continue to participate in their local parishes. Do you intend to honor that request?
 
Melman, why the bad attitude towrds people who attend the indult mass? Also, where did Bp. Olmstead say for Catholics to still participate in their local parishes? The local parish requirment was dropped in the 83 canon law, and even before then, in the US at least, attdence was never fully local, since there were “ethnic” parishes that served Italian, Polish, Spanish and French communites up till the 80s that were non territorial in nature.

Let the people who choose to go to the indult mass be, and let them form their own community.
 
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JNB:
Melman, why the bad attitude towrds people who attend the indult mass? Also, where did Bp. Olmstead say for Catholics to still participate in their local parishes? …] Let the people who choose to go to the indult mass be, and let them form their own community.
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Please don’t start the “bad attitude” accusations again. At one point I had an interest in attending the old mass, but every innocent question about it seems to being out the “us vs. them” arguers. So now I’m almost afraid to give it a try.

I see nothing wrong with standing up for parishes that have stamped out most of the abuses and are doing things right. I am proud to belong to one of them. They are just not that hard to find, and there is no reason to spend years being “angry”.

The Bishop’s instructions can be found here. They make perfect sense to me.
catholicsun.org/archives/apr1/olmstedletter.htm
 
Melman, sorry for the bad impressions, just check out the TRidentine mass once just to see what it is like, it is not my intent to throw stones, and at no time have I said the NO is invalid.

What the latter stated is that the sacraments such as Baptism will be done in the local parishes. THis is how much indult masses start, the only sacrament avilable is the mass and communion itself, though my guess is if the indult grows, all the sacraments will become avilable as they have in other dioceses.
 
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JNB:
What the latter stated is that the sacraments such as Baptism will be done in the local parishes. THis is how much indult masses start, the only sacrament avilable is the mass and communion itself, though my guess is if the indult grows, all the sacraments will become avilable as they have in other dioceses.
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I’ll take your word for that, but when I read:
It is my wish that those attending this Mass be fully engaged in their own parishes for sacramental preparation, the religious education of their children, and their own spiritual growth and development.
I see clear instruction to remain active in the home parishes through membership, education of children, etc. The indult mass is currently being offered at a parish that has four Sunday masses of its own, and in this rapidly growing area there are no “dying parishes” to establish a Latin Mass community in (as has been suggested, perhaps done, in other parts of the country), and new parishes are not being built as fast as they could be, for lack of priests to staff them.
 
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