Should Tridentine and N.O. Liturgy co-exist?

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Melman.

“If you have been upset with Sunday Masses for 3 years, then you haven’t tried very hard to find a good abuse-free mass and/or parish. There are plenty of them in the Phoenix Diocese, and they’re not very hard to find.”

My My, isn’t that rather judgmental. I tried every Parish in Mesa where I live, a few in Tempe and a few in Phoenix - none were without abuses but I went to the one with the least.

“And as you know, when granting the Indult the bishop asked that folks continue to participate in their local parishes. Do you intend to honor that request?”

That is not exactly what he said, he said, what he said was,

“It is my wish that those attending this Mass be fully engaged in their own parishes for sacramental preparation, the religious education of their children, and their own spiritual growth and development”

Not that it is any of your business, but it means, for me, I go to confession at that parish. I don’t have children and that is the extent of my participation in the parish in the past, confesson and Mass. It was not a mandate and not a condition, just “his wish”.

Must you challenge everyone and everything? And until such a time that you have participated in some Tridentine Masses, I doubt you can really make much valid comment on them.

If you or anyone is content with your parish (with or without abuses) then I have not problem with that. I never said one was better for everyone, just for me and that was the whole intent of this poll. I believe that there is room for both to coexist. I am happy for you that you are content with your parish. When I lived in Sierra Vista, for the most part, I was “okay” with the Parish there. The priest was very meticulous in his liturgy, heard confessions before every Mass and except for holding hands during communion with the altar girls and callin the EMHC’s Eucharistic Ministers - there were no abuses to note. He gave the best homilies I have heard anywhere (probably because he was an ex Lutheran Minister and they are known for their long homilies:D )
 
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dcmac:
Fr. Joseph said I should focus on a religious community that will allow me to utilize my gifts in a more traditional manner, or, the Maronites who have had a major, major impact on my life over the past year.

I would say that I am personally wanting a secular parochial ministry (archdiocesan). But, with that I am not guaranteed the ability to minister in a traditional way. While I can now, that may not be the case in the future and I don’t want to cross that bridge when it comes. Yet, that leaves me with only an ordered ministry or a canonical switch to the Maronites, which is also very much an ordered ministry. I am spending the bulk of this summer to discern where to apply and then go from there.
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In April, several of us were most privileged to be invited by our Maronite pastor to accompany him to the Enthronement Ceremony for our new Bishop Gregory John Mansour, at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Lebanon in Brooklyn, NY. He is only the 2nd American to be ordained as bishop. Bishop Mansour is only 48 years old.

Would like to share some of his comments, following his Enthronement, with you. May his words be a guide in your discernment process.
Code: 
        *Even though I am young, I am now an expert on the orders of the Church for I have been ordained nine times!  I have been ordained Cantor, Lector, Sub-deacon, Deacon, Archdeacon, Priest, Periodute, ChorBishop and now Bishop.  For most people it takes only one or two ordinations, but for me it took all nine. Maybe this last one I will finally get right!  *
  • Code: 
           In the Syriac Maronite Church these nine orders have different functions that serve to edify the Church.  My favorite ordination was that of the subdiaconate (oh to be a subdeacon again! ). The nine ranks of the Church are likened to the nine ranks of cherubim and seraphim, angels and archangels, powers and dominions, etc. who do God’s bidding in the heavens and on earth.  Believe me, we clergy types are not angels!!!  But we are called to lead others to God just as they are.*
  • Code: 
           Thus ordination is a service to the People of God (clergy, religious and laity), a call to do His bidding.  The major orders reflect the different aspects of the person of Christ. The deacon shows forth Christ’s servanthood and his care for the needy. The priest shows forth the eternal priesthood of Christ still interceding for us at the throne of grace. The bishop, who has the fullness of the orders of the Church (that’s probably why it took nine times!)  shows us Christ the Good Shepherd who lays down his life for the flock. In this context we can understand more fully what St. Augustine meant when he said,  “With you I am a Christian, for you I am a Bishop.”*
  • Thus, my friends this day is not “all about me”, it is about us, as the People of God! The opposite of ordination is not unordination, because one can never be unordained… Nor is it “non-ordination”, because ordination is always for the purpose of others-for their good. Rather the opposite of ordination is celebrity. While celebrity brings attention to oneself, ordination brings attention to the Mystery of Christ and this Mystical Body, the Church. The one ordained may or may not be popular, that is not the purpose of ordination. Rather the one ordained is called to be faithful to the particular mission and to the particular people entrusted to him.*
 
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catholiclady:
My My, isn’t that rather judgmental.
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No ma’am it’s not, and since we have (apparently) discussed this before I didn’t think you’d see it that way.
I tried every Parish in Mesa where I live, a few in Tempe and a few in Phoenix - none were without abuses
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At one time or another, I have also been to most of the parishes in Mesa and Tempe and Chandler. I just don’t accept that “none” had a mass that didn’t upset you.
“It is my wish that those attending this Mass be fully engaged in their own parishes for sacramental preparation, the religious education of their children, and their own spiritual growth and development”

Not that it is any of your business, but it means, for me, I go to confession at that parish. I don’t have children and that is the extent of my participation in the parish in the past, confesson and Mass. It was not a mandate and not a condition, just “his wish”.
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If I put you on the defensive, it was not my intent. But I did want to ask about this and what your thoughts were. He doesn’t come out and say it, but I think he’s asking for you to continue to support your home parish financially too. You are right, it’s not a mandate but it is still his desire, and to downplay it because you got the Tridentine that you wanted seems… well… not quite fair.
Must you challenge everyone and everything? And until such a time that you have participated in some Tridentine Masses, I doubt you can really make much valid comment on them.
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These are discussion forums, aren’t they? Are we not to discuss, and ask questions? You are right, I have not yet attended the Tridentine mass - AND I have not made any comment about them, nor would I. But I think I can still participate in the general discussion.
 
Melman

you say, “I just don’t accept that “none” had a mass that didn’t upset you.” This bothers me. Can’t you see that such statements question someones integrity?

Don’t you think, since you don’t know me, that it is presumptive to accept or not accept what may or may not upset me. It is fair of you to say that one or none did not upset you but you can’t know what might or might not upset me. It’s like saying to someone, “you should not feel that way”.

I might find it hard to accept the Mass at St. Timothy’s but a great many people obviously accept it since the parking lot is always overflowing.

You also presume that the Bishop meant thus or so by his statement, etc. If he wants us to not give our financial support at the Tridentine Mass, then why would they have a collection?

One of these morning’s I will go to Mass at St. Mary’s and I’ll let you know if I find any of it upsetting to me or not - 😉

True this is a discussion forum but if you want to know my thoughts, ask me that “what are your thoughts on what the Bishop meant by this statement”, don’t say, “The bishop means thus and so and do you intend to honor it”.

Again, I reiterate for you and others, that it is your choice what Mass you attend and what rite, I can only speak for myself and having moved her three years ago after attending Tridentine Mass for two years, and having attended a very traditional N.O. Mass the 6 years prior to that, I found it difficult to find an acceptable Mass in this Diocese. I take your word that yours is fine and that there are others but since I did not go to each and every Mass at each and every Church in the Diocese, I can only say that I did not find one that was without liturgical abuses. This is my experience whether you accept it or not.
 
I attended the Tridentine mass for the first time this past Sunday at St. John Cantius parish Chicago. I must admit that i had some trouble following along even with the Latin/English guidebook they provide. What stood out for me was the great reverence for the Eucharist and, other that the homily which was great, the celebrant’s personality doesn’t have any bearing on the Mass. I plan on attending the tridentine mass again but, for me, the N.O. is just fine as long as if follows the GIRM and is done reverently.
 
“N.O. is just fine as long as if follows the GIRM and is done reverently.”

And I would concur with that, trouble is that some of us can’t find one that does that exactly but I also dislike the modern music. I have gone to some “quiet” N.O. Masses or weekday N.O. Masses that I don’t mind at all. It just seems that at some of the Sunday ones I have attended it becomes “show time” …

I do understand this is not true everywhere - just as I have said, it has been my experience in the past.
 
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guido03:
I attended the Tridentine mass for the first time this past Sunday at St. John Cantius parish Chicago. I must admit that i had some trouble following along even with the Latin/English guidebook they provide. What stood out for me was the great reverence for the Eucharist and, other that the homily which was great, the celebrant’s personality doesn’t have any bearing on the Mass. I plan on attending the tridentine mass again but, for me, the N.O. is just fine as long as if follows the GIRM and is done reverently.
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It usually takes 3 or 4 trips to the Traditional Latin Mass before you can “get it”.
 
Catholic lady, I don’t want to mislead you. I think I may have caused some confusion, so please let me clear it up now. It was not any of the priests affiliated with St. John Vianney Seminary here in Colorado that convinced me to abandon my discernment the first time. Rather quite the opposite, Fr. Hilton, the spiritual director for the Insight year was a great blessing - truly holy and sincere as well as orthodox. However, my own parish pastor was my priest-confessor and naturally had more influence on me. I had him as a pastor before my discernment, so I kept him and, frankly, that was a mistake. So be it, everything happens for a reason.

But, rest assured that St. John Vianney Seminary is a major source of orthodox Catholicism and I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone who is discerning a vocation, as indeed I have. My only concern about applying attending and being ordained is that I would be bound to this see, which is in fact what I’d prefer, but the orthodoxy of our current archbishop may not continue into the future with successive Ordinaries and I would not want to cross that bridge.

NYer, thank you. I too love the Maronites. The Syriac Church is very much blessed and the Maronites in particular have the strongest link with Christ of all of the Oriental churches, for they never ceased allegiance to Peter and the make very good use of Christ’s own Aramaic tongue. That is truly a very blessed thing.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,

Donnchadh
 
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catholiclady:
you say, “I just don’t accept that “none” had a mass that didn’t upset you.” This bothers me. Can’t you see that such statements question someones integrity?
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It is time to let this argument thread die, but there was no question of integrity. It was a simple disagreement, no more than that.

On another forum, someone insisted they were “suffering” simply because “extraordinary ministers of holy communion” were referred to as “eucharistic ministers”. Not to replay it all here, but I suggested that perhaps this was an exaggeration. But each suggestion, each request to put the matter in some sort of perspective, was met with more and more bitterness. It came down to “Don’t tell me I don’t have a right to be mad.”

So go ahead, be mad. I give up.
 
DC Mac - I understand exactly what you are saying. I have a very good friend, a priest, who was incardinated in Italy and hoped that when he returned he could be incardinated in his home state but alas that Bishop was very liberal and did not cotton to this priests Orthodoxy so this did not happen. So now he ends up being a priest at large, spending his time here and in Italy. That said, it may be that this is his calling as he does much good in his capacity as writer, lecturer and various duties with the Holy See and perhaps being a parish priest would have been a waste of his multiple talents.

I wish you well and will continue praying for your vocation and that you find your “place” in his name.
 
Melman,

Give it up, Buddy.

It’s what is known as CTWS or “Circle the Wagons Syndrome.”

In other words, everything is falling apart and only the 1962 Missal can save us! You know, nevermind the fact that the majority of priests who brought us the modern badly abused liturgy were educated and formed and taught the Mass of 1962. Once the new Mass came out it magically corrupted all these good orthodox priests and made them into lukewarm abusive priests.
 
"In other words, everything is falling apart and only the 1962 Missal can save us! "

Well certainly I never said that and it does not appear to be what the poll results bear out either.
 
In searching for a Tridentine Mass in my area, I happened to stumble upon the website of what I discovered to be a schismatic Latin Mass. The site hid its schismatic nature and was purposefully misleading in that it claimed that the particular Church had the blessing of JPII–It appears JPII blessed the particular Church in the early '80s before its pastor followed the heresy of Lefebvre and before Lefebvre was excommunicated. My point is that the Tridentine Mass is great but people have to be on the alert that they are going to one that is in communion with the Church
 
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swampfox:
people have to be on the alert that they are going to one that is in communion with the Church
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For me, that seems like a good reason for most people to steer clear of the whole matter. It is just far too easy to be led into a place that you shouldn’t be - either a full-blown schismatic group, or just a general lack of tolerance and patience for anything but the “good old days” (the “Circle the Wagons Syndrome” mentioned earlier), a desire to find loopholes and exceptions in the liturgical documents to justify one’s complaints.

(This is not directed at anyone in particular, it’s a combination of everything I’ve seen while trying to educate myself about the matter.)
 
Swampfox - that is a good point and usually a call to your local Diocese will tell you if there is a licit Tridentine Mass in the Diocese and when and where.

Any other source would be unreliable.
 
As a new Catholic, I have no clue what a Tridentine Mass is like. Every now and then though, father will “slip” in some Latin into the Mass and I find this MOST BEAUTIFUL, wish he would do it more often. 😛
 
Melman:
For me, that seems like a good reason for most people to steer clear of the whole matter.
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Fine if that works for you but for me the benefit of the Tridentine Mass is well worth the extra effort–
 
It never ceases to amaze me at the intolerance of some. Smug comments and sneering little e-bits are infantile and disrespectful; truly worthy of immature teenagers in high school.

There has always been, is now, and always will be room for the rite of St. Pius V in the Latin, or Roman, Church, as illustrated recently by Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos, not to mention the Holy Father. Both can exist just fine. The whole “steer clear” philosophy is one that the Oriental Catholic Churches and peoples have had to endure for centuries, so I guess the arrogance of the New Romans is also to be expected.

Just as we are called by the Holy Father to breathe with both lungs of the faith, we should all the more do so within our own Roman Church. There is no danger in the two co-existing, nor is there any danger in the experience of attending and worshiping the Lord in the ancient ritual. Fair enough that SV’s and SSPXers abound a plenty to steal sheep. However, the risk is far outweighed by the many splendored benefits of attending the sacrifice of the Mass in the ritual of St. Pius V. Let us also not forget that a simple telephone call to the diocese, or even the click of the mouse, can locate a licit, indult mass.

Come, come now…

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future priest,

Donnchadh
 
“Fair enough that SV’s and SSPXers abound a plenty to steal sheep. However, the risk is far outweighed by the many splendored benefits of attending the sacrifice of the Mass in the ritual of St. Pius V.”

And another good reason to have licit Indult Masses - so we can “steal back those stolen” or at least lost sheep. 🙂
 
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