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AlNg
Guest
How do you explain the conversion of Edgardo Mortara?
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AlNg
Guest
I thought you said:
His Jewish parents did not consent to anything of the sort. And he was six years old. He was baptized without any choice in the matter by a maid.
Was the pope wrong to have him taken from his Jewish parents? Was the infallible pope wrong in taking his baptism to be valid?
His Jewish parents did not consent to anything of the sort. And he was six years old. He was baptized without any choice in the matter by a maid.
Was the pope wrong to have him taken from his Jewish parents? Was the infallible pope wrong in taking his baptism to be valid?
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DeoVindice1863
Guest
Whatever “free” means, anyways
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Quis_UtDeus
Guest
Here are some highlights from
http://www.historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/church-fathers-and-medieval-doctors-on.html?m=1
“Those who sincerely wish to lead people who stand outside the Christian religion into the proper faith should strive to do so by gentle means rather than by harsh means, lest adversity alienate the mind of those whom a reasonable argument would have been able to attract. For those who do otherwise and wish to force them, under such pretext, from the customary observance of their rite are seen clearly to attend to their own affairs more intently than those of God." - Pope St. Gregory the Great in Letter to the Bishop of Naples, 602 AD
“No one should henceforth be forced to believe, [for] God hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will he hardeneth; such men should not be saved unwillingly but willingly, in order that the procedure of justice should be complete; for just as man perished obedient to the serpent out of his own free will, so will any man be saved—when called by the divine grace—by believing and in converting his own mind. They should be persuaded to convert, therefore, of their own free choice, rather than forced by violence.” —Fourth Council of Toledo, Canon 57, 633 AD
“Concerning those who refuse to receive the good of Christianity and sacrifice and bend their knees to idols, we can write nothing else to you than that you move them towards the right faith by warnings, exhortations, and reason rather than by force, proving that what they know in vain, is wrong. … Furthermore, violence is never in any way to be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For whatever is not from an inner desire cannot be good.” —Pope Nicholas I, Ad consulta vestra, 866 AD
“We in fact decree that no Christian should compel [the Jews] by violence to come to baptism reluctantly or unwillingly; but if one of them of his own accord flees for refuge to Christians for the sake of the faith, after his wish is made known, he should without any abuse be made a Christian. For he who is known to come to the baptism of Christians, not spontaneously, but reluctantly is certainly not believed to have true faith in Christianity. … Furthermore in the celebration of their feasts, let no one disturb them in any way.” — Pope Innocent III, Constitution Licet perfidia Iudaeorum, 1199 AD
And I could go on.
http://www.historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/church-fathers-and-medieval-doctors-on.html?m=1
“Those who sincerely wish to lead people who stand outside the Christian religion into the proper faith should strive to do so by gentle means rather than by harsh means, lest adversity alienate the mind of those whom a reasonable argument would have been able to attract. For those who do otherwise and wish to force them, under such pretext, from the customary observance of their rite are seen clearly to attend to their own affairs more intently than those of God." - Pope St. Gregory the Great in Letter to the Bishop of Naples, 602 AD
“No one should henceforth be forced to believe, [for] God hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will he hardeneth; such men should not be saved unwillingly but willingly, in order that the procedure of justice should be complete; for just as man perished obedient to the serpent out of his own free will, so will any man be saved—when called by the divine grace—by believing and in converting his own mind. They should be persuaded to convert, therefore, of their own free choice, rather than forced by violence.” —Fourth Council of Toledo, Canon 57, 633 AD
“Concerning those who refuse to receive the good of Christianity and sacrifice and bend their knees to idols, we can write nothing else to you than that you move them towards the right faith by warnings, exhortations, and reason rather than by force, proving that what they know in vain, is wrong. … Furthermore, violence is never in any way to be inflicted upon them to make them believe. For whatever is not from an inner desire cannot be good.” —Pope Nicholas I, Ad consulta vestra, 866 AD
“We in fact decree that no Christian should compel [the Jews] by violence to come to baptism reluctantly or unwillingly; but if one of them of his own accord flees for refuge to Christians for the sake of the faith, after his wish is made known, he should without any abuse be made a Christian. For he who is known to come to the baptism of Christians, not spontaneously, but reluctantly is certainly not believed to have true faith in Christianity. … Furthermore in the celebration of their feasts, let no one disturb them in any way.” — Pope Innocent III, Constitution Licet perfidia Iudaeorum, 1199 AD
And I could go on.
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twf
Guest
What I said is that it was “as much, if not more” the State, not exclusively so. Certainly Church officials were also to blame…and certainly the masses supported it. Were they the Church or the people of Spain? As you say, it’s hard to differentiate at times.
If you mean the Catholic Church must come to terms with its history of anti-Semitism, I would say She has. Pius XII saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. St John Paul II apologized for the Church’s past sins and made great overtures to the Jewish people.
I assume by “millions” of deaths you meant the Holocaust. If so, Protestant Churches must take some of the blame as well? Germany was not strictly a Catholic country.
If you mean the Catholic Church must come to terms with its history of anti-Semitism, I would say She has. Pius XII saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. St John Paul II apologized for the Church’s past sins and made great overtures to the Jewish people.
I assume by “millions” of deaths you meant the Holocaust. If so, Protestant Churches must take some of the blame as well? Germany was not strictly a Catholic country.
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twf
Guest
Come on…you know papal infallibility doesn’t apply in this context. This was a prudential judgment, not a dogmatic doctrinal decree.
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AlNg
Guest
First you tell us that the parents have to consent for them to be raised Catholic for the baptism to be valid, now you say no?
The boy was forcibly converted against the will of his Jewish parents and the pope said that the boy was a Catholic not a Jew and that gave him the right to take the boy from his parents? Is that not true? Do you say that the pope was wrong or not?
The boy was forcibly converted against the will of his Jewish parents and the pope said that the boy was a Catholic not a Jew and that gave him the right to take the boy from his parents? Is that not true? Do you say that the pope was wrong or not?
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Quis_UtDeus
Guest
At worst, the baptism would still be valid but illicit (at least under current canon law), and papal infallibility does not mean the Pope is impeccable of sins or error.
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twf
Guest
I think so. It seems to me a violation of natural law.
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Quis_UtDeus
Guest
Doing something wrong has nothing to do with making an Ex Cathedra statement teaching with infallible authority.
You’re trying to say the Pope isn’t impeccable, which every Catholic agrees. Even Pope Peter was wrong to deny Christ 3 times.
You’re trying to say the Pope isn’t impeccable, which every Catholic agrees. Even Pope Peter was wrong to deny Christ 3 times.
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Zaccheus
Guest
Not if it was done by force and against the will of the baptized.
If someone forces you at gunpoint to sign a bill of sale for your house or car, saying you sell them your property, that doesn’t mean they now legally own your house or car. What just happened is robbery under false pretenses.
So with baptism. If it happens at gunpoint it’s not real baptism.
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kainosktisis
Guest
No, we can’t force people into the faith. Love is not love if it’s coerced.
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Zaccheus
Guest
I don’t know the facts of this case but:
Even if it was the Pope who made this decision, popes are fallible men like the rest of us and can make mistakes.
If Edgardo was an adult or adolescent then without his consent there can be no valid baptism, no matter who said there was.
If he was an infant then without the consent of his parents or legal guardians there can be no valid baptism no matter who said there was.
Are you sure it was actually the Pope who said this and not the local bishop?
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Zaccheus
Guest
Not if done against the will of his parents.
But in the case of infants the consent of the parents or guardians is essential. If a servant baptized Edgardo without consent of his parents then it was done against their will, and could not be valid.
Papal infallibility applies only to the proclamation of doctrine to the Church as a whole, and even then only under certain conditions. We do not claim the Pope is unable to make mistakes. Nor for that matter, that he can’t commit sin.
But in the case of infants the consent of the parents or guardians is essential. If a servant baptized Edgardo without consent of his parents then it was done against their will, and could not be valid.
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Zaccheus
Guest
Now I’m confused. How can it be valid if neither the baptized person nor that person’s legal guardians ever gave consent?
Whoever gave that order was wrong.
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fhansen
Guest
A forced conversion would do exactly nothing in terms of getting anyone to heaven. What makes a person justified in the eyes of God is when they love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves. To the extent that we do this, we’re heaven bound. But this simply cannot be forced. Anyway, the Church echoes St John of the Cross in her teaching on our judgment: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
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Zaccheus
Guest
I didn’t know this was a requirement for validity. (Liceity, but not validity.) would you happen to have a source that shows that it is? (Not saying you’re wrong, but would like to see for myself for future reference.)
Edit to add: just found this on the Internet again. It appears as though baptizing a baby against their parents’ wishes can indeed be valid, even if not licit. Might want to read it: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/02/14/can-a-baby-be-baptized-against-the-parents-wishes/
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More complex than I thought.
Even so, if Edgardo was not in immanent danger of death (and I haven’t seen anybody suggest he was) then that provision does not apply.
If Edgardo was old enough to decide for himself and did not consent then the baptism was forced upon him.
If he was not old enough and not about to die then his parents had to make the decision and it is clear they opposed what was done.
Edit to add: just found this on the Internet again. It appears as though baptizing a baby against their parents’ wishes can indeed be valid, even if not licit. Might want to read it: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/02/14/can-a-baby-be-baptized-against-the-parents-wishes/
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More complex than I thought.
Even so, if Edgardo was not in immanent danger of death (and I haven’t seen anybody suggest he was) then that provision does not apply.
If Edgardo was old enough to decide for himself and did not consent then the baptism was forced upon him.
If he was not old enough and not about to die then his parents had to make the decision and it is clear they opposed what was done.
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steve-b
Guest
No one should be forced to convert. Conversion should always be voluntary. We give information all properly referenced as to the truth. And the consequences if one refuses to follow the truth is clearly given in scripture… Objectively speaking,. if one is given the truth and refuses it, that’s an act of their will freely exercised. As scripture warns, those who refuse the truth after being given the truth won’t be saved.
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