Should We Recite the "Pledge of Allegiance?"

[Elaine_s_Cross]

Since our unjust invasion of Iraq, I cannot recite the “Pledge of Allegiance.” As an un-Reconstructed Southerner, I find this article most thought-provoking.

*“The pledge first appeared in 1892 in a boy’s magazine called the Youth’s Companion. For 45 years the authorship was in dispute, with both James B. Upham and Francis Bellamy claiming to have written it. Then, the United States Flag Association settled the dispute in the most democratic fashion possible – they voted on it. Bellamy won the election and claimed the credit. *
What kind of man was Bellamy? He was a Nationalist, a Christian Socialist and a Baptist minister who was driven from his pulpit by a congregation weary of his socialist sermons.”

lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace139.html

and this article

*"Bellamy was the cousin of Edward Bellamy, author of the extremely popular 1888 socialist fantasy, Looking Backward. In this novel the main character, Julian West, falls asleep in 1887 and awakens in the year 2000 when the socialist “utopia” has been achieved: All industry is state owned, Soviet style; everyone is an employee of the state who is conscripted at age 21 and retires at age 45; and all workers earn the same income. *

Francis Bellamy said that one purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance was to help accomplish his lifelong goal of making his cousin’s socialist fantasy a reality in America. He further stated that the “true reason for allegiance to the Flag” was to indoctrinate American school children in the false history of the American founding that was espoused first by Daniel Webster and, later, by Abraham Lincoln."

lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo54.html

and this article

"The real problem with the Pledge of Allegiance is not the phrase “under God.” "

lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell29.html

 

[gilliam]

EC,

Are you Catholic? If so, let me tell you that the part of the pledge “under God” was thought of and pushed by the Knights of Columbus (In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, ‘under God,’ to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.)

So, yes, you should recite the pledge. You are still American, and if you don’t like who is in office, vote for someone else. That is what being a citizen is. You should be working on all levels of your governement for Catholic causes. But, bottom line, you are an American and the pledge is to the Republic and everything that it stands for. It is not for any particular political party or president (I have to remind Republicans of this during Democratic years as well because they say things similar to what you are saying). So don’t let ANYONE tell you differently. This country belongs to you as much as it belongs to the Republicans, me or anyone else.

Francis Bellamy failed in his goal a long, long time ago.

Of course, you can always renounce your citizenship, and go hide in a cave I suppose. But remember, dispair is a sin.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

gilliam:

Are you Catholic?

Not counting family or clan, Catholic first, Louisianian second, Southerner third, USA citizen fourth.

Although this country has done some wonderful things, it has a most checkered history and the government has evolved into a Leviathon that was not envisioned by the Founding Fathers. That was changed by the War for Southern Independence. The South was much more in tune to the concept of limited government than the North was.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

“under God”

The problem is that our secularist government dominated by Protestant theology is not ruling as if it is “under God.” It rules by buying the votes of the people or following the opinion polls rather than the Word of God.

Sorry, but considering the state of the government and its state for many years now, I find the pledging using God’s name in that context to be a joke, if not blasphemous.

 

[gilliam]

Elaine's Cross:

Not counting family or clan, Catholic first, Louisianian second, Southerner third, USA citizen fourth.

Although this country has done some wonderful things, it has a most checkered history and the government has evolved into a Leviathon that was not envisioned by the Founding Fathers. That was changed by the War for Southern Independence. The South was much more in tune to the concept of limited government than the North was.

The South was pro-slavery. Even Lee admitted that was a grave wrong. Lee showed the South that they were part of the Union after the war, he was a great man. Probably would be good to read up on all that he did after the war and to follow in his footsteps. But I am a Californian, so don’t have the personal history here. Although my Dad was from Arkansas and could tell some terrible stories about hangings during his childhood.

 

[gilliam]

Elaine's Cross:

The problem is that our secularist government dominated by Protestant theology is not ruling as if it is “under God.” It rules by buying the votes of the people or following the opinion polls rather than the Word of God.

Sorry, but considering the state of the government and its state for many years now, I find the pledging using God’s name in that context to be a joke, if not blasphemous.

That is your choice, but I think it is an incorrect one.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

gilliam:

The South was pro-slavery…Although my Dad was from Arkansas and could tell some terrible stories about hangings during his childhood.

In the 1860 campaign, Lincoln pledged to leave the institution of slavery intact. Additionally, he participated in the plan to re-patriate slaves to Africa, a project that was ended largely due to its cost.

Of all the Western nations that had slavery all but one ended the issue peacefully, the exception obviously being the US. At the time of the War for Southern Independence, slavery was on its last legs in the South, and many historians predict that it would have ended in 20(?) years or so. Check out the writings of Thomas DiLorenzo and Thomas Woods, Jr., among others.

Yes, I know some horrible things happened to blacks in the South, post-reconstruction and well into the 20th Century. There are still some things going on today. I wasn’t raised that way. To use the “n” word in my home would reward one with a smack. Some good friends of mine were and are black. I attended a university that was the first to integrate in the south. My American Legion baseball team was about 2/3 black and we had a black head coach for two years. For our home games, about a third of the spectators were black.

It’s not perfect here, but it’s not as bad as many Yankees have made it out to be. In this area I never heard nor saw anything like the trouble Boston had when their schools integrated.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

Elaine's Cross:

Not counting family or clan, Catholic first, Louisianian second, Southerner third, USA citizen fourth.

My philosophy is largely the same as that of the character played by Jimmy Stewart in the movie “Shenandoah.” Prior to the War for Southern Independence, it was a philosophy shared by many Americans.

 

[gilliam]

Elaine's Cross:

My philosophy is largely the same as that of the character played by Jimmy Stewart in the movie “Shenandoah.” Prior to the War for Southern Independence, it was a philosophy shared by many Americans.

Sorry, I haven’t seen the movie.

I have no defense for Lincoln. Sorry, the man was a politician and his goal was to keep the Union intact. Period. I do know some of Gen Lee, and I respect the memory of the man. He seemed to know what honor meant.

 

[Trelow]

We recite it almost every morning.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

gilliam:

I do know some of Gen Lee, and I respect the memory of the man. He seemed to know what honor meant.

I completely agree. I consider him to be the most honorable man of that terrible period of history. It must be noted that Gen. Lee’s troops did not want him to surrender. They were willing to go to the bitter end if he would only lead them. However, he knew they were broken and battered, hopelessly beaten. I don’t think his support of the Union was out of love but out of realization that it would be fruitless to fight on.

The issue of secession was not legally resolved at that time.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

gilliam:

Sorry, I haven’t seen the movie.

A real tear-jerker with a good script and good acting. I saw it once in a theatre and numerous times at home.

 

[Trelow]

Elaine's Cross:

I completely agree. I consider him to be the most honorable man of that terrible period of history. It must be noted that Gen. Lee’s troops did not want him to surrender. They were willing to go to the bitter end if he would only lead them. However, he knew they were broken and battered, hopelessly beaten. I don’t think his support of the Union was out of love but out of realization that it would be fruitless to fight on.

The issue of secession was not legally resolved at that time.

Amen, Gen. Robet E. Lee was the last great gentleman.

 

[mpav]

By all means, don’t salute the flag if you believe America is engaging in unjust acts in Iraq. Maybe spend the time instead praying for the all the victims of Saddam Hussein, or the victims of the enemies of post-Saddam Iraq, or all the victims of unjust governments everywhere, today. It seems that being killed by one’s own government is far better than being killed in a war of liberation, which seeks to end despotism.

Gotta go now, time to salute the Stars and Stripes, and say a prayer for our men and women in uniform and the Allies of the US, who are doing the hard work of making life better for millions of people.

 

[bones_IV]

Elaine's Cross:

Not counting family or clan, Catholic first, Louisianian second, Southerner third, USA citizen fourth.

Although this country has done some wonderful things, it has a most checkered history and the government has evolved into a Leviathon that was not envisioned by the Founding Fathers. That was changed by the War for Southern Independence. The South was much more in tune to the concept of limited government than the North was.

Are you not aware of the fact that our nation was founded with a belief in God? Don’t use our country’s past nor the Iraqi war as an excuse not to recite the pledge of allegiance. It’s anti-americanism and immoral. God bless.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

mpav:

By all means, don’t salute the flag if you believe America is engaging in unjust acts in Iraq. Maybe spend the time instead praying for the all the victims of Saddam Hussein, or the victims of the enemies of post-Saddam Iraq, or all the victims of unjust governments everywhere, today. It seems that being killed by one’s own government is far better than being killed in a war of liberation, which seeks to end despotism.

Gotta go now, time to salute the Stars and Stripes, and say a prayer for our men and women in uniform and the Allies of the US, who are doing the hard work of making life better for millions of people.

Could this be an example of what myself and others perceive to be an excessive militaristic attitude among the American populace???

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

bones_IV:

Don’t use our country’s past nor the Iraqi war as an excuse not to recite the pledge of allegiance. It’s anti-americanism and immoral.

Another example of the excessive militaristic attitude residing in the poplulace???

Didn’t the leaders of the Third Reich use some of the same putdowns for those who opposed their plans? Didn’t they also use some of the same inflammatory phrases (you’re either with us or against us) to rally the populace into a militaristic fervor?

 

[Trelow]

Elaine's Cross:

you’re either with us or against us)

I think Jesus coined that phrase.

 

[bones_IV]

Elaine's Cross:

Another example of the excessive militaristic attitude residing in the poplulace???

Didn’t the leaders of the Third Reich use some of the same putdowns for those who opposed their plans? Didn’t they also use some of the same inflammatory phrases (you’re either with us or against us) to rally the populace into a militaristic fervor?

It seems to me that you are jumping to irrational conclusions. Its true that these people who wrote the pledge of allegiance were errored men. My question to you though is what does the third reich have to do with criticism of those who don’t want to recite the pledge of allegiance? If your accusing me of running a militaristic campaign, I’m not. Nor do I, as you seem to imply by your very words, you call me a nationalist, socialist or pro-war republican. You name one place in the pledge of allegiance were the it implies socialism or anything in there associated with the Third Reich.

 

[Elaine_s_Cross]

bones_IV:

Are you not aware of the fact that our nation was founded with a belief in God?

A belief in God yes, as promulgated by Deists and Protestants, not the Holy See.

Besides, this country did quite all right without a pledge of allegiance for over 100 years and the citizens of these united states had a great deal more liberty in the 100+ years without the pledge than in the 100+ years subsequent to it.