Should we watch Michael Voris?

[Dandelion_Wine]

I suppose it depends on where you are (or the person contemplating listening to MV is) in your journey. There are pluses and minus to MV. I think a plus is that you’re getting news that you’re not getting elsewhere. I think he’s doing a great service to the Church by uncovering and making known some of the stuff that he has/is. But I know personally that sometimes I have to take a break from MV because it can become disheartening for me to know about some of the horrendous stuff that is going on. As with the secular nightly news, it’s good to have a balance between what’s going on that’s bad and what’s going on that’s good.

 

[TheLittleLady]

#1. The quote “That is a loving act, and that is a form of love that I don’t understand but that I have to reverence”.

Fr Martin gave a personal opinion. He did not say “and according to Catholic teaching we all ought reverence this relationship”. Nope.

He said a form of what I often say about Mormons or JW’s, I have have deep respect for their level of commitment to go door to door taking their version of the gospel. This does not mean that I think they have the truth, but, I admire the heck out of their commitment. We need a lot more of that sort of commitment in this world.

Failed the “literally spew out anti-Catholic material and try to disguise it as Catholicism.” test.

#2 The American College of Pediatrics is not the arbitrator of Catholic doctrine. As to date the Church has not issued a doctrinal statement on transgender issues, Fr Martin’s words again do not pass the “LSOA-CM Disguise” test.

Another thing, your source has something wrong.

The American Academy of Pediatrics paper on transgender:

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2018/09/17/transgender091718

There is another group called the “American College of Pediatricians” that is a very small, political right-wing advocacy group.

There does not exist a “American College of Pediatrics”.

#3 the source is LifeSite News.

#4 Fr Martin did not say that the questionable sister is perfect, nor that wishing she goes to heaven is Catholic teaching, does not pass your test. And by the way, how is it bad to hope that someone gets to heaven? That is what canonization means, that the person goes to heaven. Seems to be a super Catholic thing to wish upon another person.

#5 Accepting an award. This is not stating something is Catholic when it is not.

#6 a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe as an Hispanic woman running is not in any way, shape or form blasphemous. Knees are not nasty.

#7 someone’s blurb about a book that I write is now “spewing anti-Catholic material”??? Seriously, that is the biggest stretch of all. I’ve read the book, I will buy you a copy if you will read it.

So, this list is rash judgments, editoralizing and twisting.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

It is misleading to say that “it is a form of love I do not undrestand”. It is not a form of love. It is a temptation that no one should choose to commit. Because the bible explicitly say in both testaments in several different books that to practice those temptations would mean one cannot go to heaven. True love is to tell this truth as Michael Voris does. Fr James Martin way to do it could get people misintepret church teaching regarding homosexuality and ssa.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

He could be talking just about the NCR.

 

[Finn]

1. Fuller quote “…My friend Mark and his husband…and I continually say…that is a loving act…and that is a form of love that I don’t understand but I have to reverence.” No-one has claimed, as you are suggesting, that Fr. Martin gave anything other than his personal opinion. The point is that his personal opinion, his expressed messaging - his teaching - is at odds with the Church’s. The latter’s stance would be that this is disordered - starkly different from ‘this is something I just don’t understand but I must respect.’
   
   See earlier in the same video where Fr. Martin expresses his distaste for a superior speaking against same-sex marriage – i.e. upholding the Church’s position.
   
   Your comparison to your own attitude towards Mormons or JWs doesn’t apply: under discussion is an ordained Catholic priest exhorting his personal beliefs which stand in opposition to those of the Catholic Church. This is very clear and very basic.
2. Again, no-one has suggested that the ACP is the arbiter (I think you mean) of Catholic doctrine. I’m not sure why you suggest this. The Church’s position on transgenderism does, however, seem pretty clear – refer to the Catechism, Cardinal Versaldi’s CCE document and Cardinal Sarah’s more outspoken expressions. All of these are at variance to Fr. Martin’s own teachings, which in this instance empower him to refer to the position of the Catholic Church as ‘a scandal’.
3. LifeSite: bad seems to be your stance here. This falls far short of critical analysis and shuts out any possibility of reasoned discussion but feel free to look the primary source itself up – it’s not hard to locate.
4. You need to revisit the definition of canonization.
5. Accepting an award from an organization about which the USCCB issued a cautionary statement, due to clear and sustained lack of adherence to Church teachings – you see this as in-line with and supportive of Catholic belief? Or is it perhaps more logical and truthful to identify it as the actions of someone who is seeking to change the teachings of the Church? Please give me your honest thinking on this.
   
   Thanks for the offer re the book. Since you’ve read it, could you tell me – does Fr. Martin as Catholic author ever take the opportunity to clearly and unambiguously state to LGBT readers that they need to live in alignment with the teachings of the Church?
   
   Further to that – do you genuinely think that Fr. Martin’s beliefs and teachings on sexuality are in alignment with the Church’s?

 

[CurtisHouse]

I miss the days when Michael Voris did Catholic apologetics. I know how rampant this homosexual clergy crisis is but I would love to see some great Catholic apologetic shows uploaded like you can find in the archives. He was one of the main reasons I started learning about the Catholic faith. It’s great to crack down on these sick pedophiles but also paying attention to the Truth of the Catholic Church would be great to see as well. Paying the monthly subscription fee for his old content is more than worth the price.

 

[pnewton]

True love is to tell this truth as Michael Voris does.

I prefer Paul’s definition:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Between Michael Voris and Fr. James Martin, I know which sounds closer to this. But my Church, even if it is “nice”, calls the Paul who wrote this a saint.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Well, I am sure Michael Voris knew a long time ago he won’t be popular by covering difficult stories. I am sure he went through a lot patiently trying to get himself heard. He made financial sacrifices too in the past. He thinks this is the kind thing to do. Kindness is not about being wishy washy.

I used to think his journalism somewhat “yellow”. It proves time and again there are irrefutable evidence behind what he said.

I don’t always agree with him regarding his traditionalist catholicism. However, I completely agree that victims need their voices heard.

Each case still need to be brought to justice. Some of the bishops may get more bad publicity despite they’re not completely in control of what happened (probably), or maybe they do. In any case, those are the reason why media exposure is needed, so there will be significant changes made.

 

[Toledo]

Should we watch Michael Voris? Social Justice

Would you please post Fr Martin’s anti Catholic material.

http://theologyindialogue.org/building-bridges-with-james-martin/

Pro-gay Fr. Martin's latest: Officially promoting same-sex couples at Mass - LifeSite

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/fr.-james-martin-ex-gays-dont-lead-fully-integrated-life

I think his promotion of material opposite of Catholic beliefs is anti-Catholic.

 

[Toledo]

Should we watch Michael Voris? Social Justice

I prefer Paul’s definition: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Between Michael Voris and Fr. James Martin, I know which sounds closer to this. But my Church, even if it is “nice”, calls the Paul who wrot…

Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. (Isaias 5:20)

And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more. (John 8:11)

God forgives if we confess our sins, and tells us to sin no more. We are specifically commanded not to delude ourselves and others saying evil things are good.

 

[TMC]

I think his promotion of material opposite of Catholic beliefs is anti-Catholic.

I find the sites you posted to be pretty anti-Church, or at least anti-Magisterium. The Magisterium, on the other hand, not only continues to support Father Martin, it has honored him. So, on balance, I find it hard to credit the idea that Father Martin is “anti-Catholic” given that the Church has embraced and honored him.

 

[pnewton]

I was answering the question of what love is, and how it applies to this topic. If you want to switch topics, I guess that is okay, but, I don’t know what to say except maybe, “Of course?”

But it does rather beg the question, does it not? I do not really know who I consider more fringe of the two, but I do believe the Church is big enough to encompass both of them within the limits of orthodox doctrine.

 

[Toledo]

Should we watch Michael Voris? Social Justice

I find the sites you posted to be pretty anti-Church, or at least anti-Magisterium. The Magisterium, on the other hand, not only continues to support Father Martin, it has honored him. So, on balance, I find it hard to credit the idea that Father Martin is “anti-Catholic” given that the Church has embraced and honored him.

Some people in the Church have honored him, not the Body of Christ itself. As we know, all mankind sins at times. However, some of us sin much more and more egregiously than do others. We all need Christ’s mercy, but we can not imagine it will be without his justice.

We’ve unfortunately seen many in the Magisterium who have sinned greatly over the years. It is our duty, as Paul did for Peter, to point out when others are in the wrong. Just because a member (or members) of the Magisterium honors someone does not make it pleasing to God. What if ex-Cardinal McCarrick had declared someone good just three years ago? Would that be good enough to accept? We must use our brains, with the guidance of the Magisterium, for/with all of God’s Church to bring about God’s message. However, we are not automatons who blindly follow messages and those in error which 2000 years of tradition and faith show not to be true.

 

[Toledo]

Pnewton, I didn’t do a very job with the quoting…I was responding to the first part of Francisca’s point and the last one of yours, trying to compare Martin’s alterations.

I’m not used to this quoting function…I haven’t mastered it yet…I’ll try to do better.

 

[pnewton]

And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more. (John 8:11)

This has to be one of the most misused proof texts today when it comes to the topic of homosexuality. First, the point is often missed, that Jesus forgave the woman first, then said go and sin not more, then she made a decision, whatever it was, to follow Jesus.

Second, it ignores the fact that almost for certain the woman did not live a sinless life after that.

Therefor, what Jesus did was show compassion and mercy, and encourage a life of over-coming sin. I do not like the approach Fr. Martin uses, but that is his general mission. He has said never said that homosexual acts are not sinful, and I have heard him say that they are a sin. I can see where his encouragement could lead to misunderstanding this though.

Likewise, I can see where an over emphasis on the sin of homosexuality could lead to misunderstanding, like forgetting that we are all likewise sinners, on a similar journey, the mercy of Jesus is deeper that the ocean.

I am not disagreeing really with anyone here, but I think different factions sometimes talk past each other instead of engaging on common ground. People like Fr. Martin and Michael Voris both have others misrepresent them in a way that is inaccurate and unflattering.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Toledo:

And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more. (John 8:11)

This has to be one of the most misused proof texts today when it comes to the topic of homosexuality. First, the point is often missed, that Jesus forgave the woman first, then said go and sin not more, then she made a decision, whatever it was, to follow Jesus.

Second, it ignores the fact that almost for certain the woman did not live a sinless life after that.

Therefor, what Jesus did was show compassion and mercy, and encourage a life of over-coming sin. I do not like the approach Fr. Martin uses, but that is his general mission. He has said never said that homosexual acts are not sinful, and I have heard him say that they are a sin. I can see where his encouragement could lead to misunderstanding this though.

Likewise, I can see where an over emphasis on the sin of homosexuality could lead to misunderstanding, like forgetting that we are all likewise sinners, on a similar journey, the mercy of Jesus is deeper that the ocean.

I am not disagreeing really with anyone here, but I think different factions sometimes talk past each other instead of engaging on common ground. People like Fr. Martin and Michael Voris both have others misrepresent them in a way that is inaccurate and unflattering.

I bolded your text above to show my answer is focusing on that in this post.

I am not a priest. But I could imagine the difficulty to listen to people’s confessions day in and day out. Probably a lay person who struggles with particular sin would also think in the above manner: both the confessors and sinners think “yeah you are forgiven for now, but I know you will comeback again or continue sinning your whole life time”.

But I assure you as a person who has been set free (eventhough, I should mention here, it has nothing to do with homosexuality), I am testifying and believe that “go sin no more” happens for real, because it is God’s command.

You may also have known that Michael Voris himself testified he has been set free from homosexuality. He also used to be a seminarian. I could begin to see why his passionate about this issue in the church.

I still live imperfect life: sometimes in bad mood, fail to come on time and so on. But the particular sin the one I know I will be damned if I continue, that one is gone. And yes, it is by God’s command its gone.

 

[TMC]

Some people in the Church have honored him, not the Body of Christ itself.

Well, the Pope is one of those “some people.” So who is the arbiter of the opinions of the Body of Christ, you?

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Toledo:

I think his promotion of material opposite of Catholic beliefs is anti-Catholic.

I find the sites you posted to be pretty anti-Church, or at least anti-Magisterium. The Magisterium, on the other hand, not only continues to support Father Martin, it has honored him. So, on balance, I find it hard to credit the idea that Father Martin is “anti-Catholic” given that the Church has embraced and honored him.

I read an article from Vatican News that says The church just issued the newest church documents for guidance at catholic schools and for dialogues that basically insists on “man and woman we create them”. The guidance basically say yes to dialogues but no to (any alternative gender) ideology.

I apologise, I do not know how to make a link. But that article shows the firm stand that the church take. I am not very sure also which exactly those documents are. If anyone knows what I am talking about, please load them here?

I suppose there are some disagreement among the clergymen like Fr. James Martin. But I hope they will realize their mistakes. So then they can resume their duty guiding instead of misleading the flocks.

The article in Vatican News dated 10June2019 15:30. Title: Vatican document on gender: Yes to dialogue, no to ideology. By Debora Donnini

The document in question entitled "Male and Female He Created Them: Towards a path of dialogue on question of gender in education"

I think somebody has post the article in popular media forum too

 

[pnewton]

You may also have known that Michael Voris himself testified he has been set free from homosexuality. He also used to be a seminarian. I could begin to see why his passionate about this issue in the church.

And I can see why he speaks to some people on a deep level. That is why I find the topic a little off. No answer can speak for “we” as in the title of the thread. That which speaks to some, others will find disturbing and counter-productive.

Ditto Fr. Martin. God does not always remove that temptation for everyone. Even St. Paul had some issue he spoke of.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

I thought I told myself I’d stop posting here.

Quite frankly, Fr. Martin is so vague and misleading, I’m not even sure how or why the Magisterium supports him. It’s mind-boggling really. Also, for those who think that just because the Pope supports someone or something, remember that we once had a Pope that attempted to sell the Papacy. Everything the Pope does isn’t infallible. If that were true, we’d all go around saying, “It’s not for me to judge” and “You’re divorced? It’s up to you to decide whether to receive communion or not”