Should "youth Masses" be different?

[agapewolf]

I never said that I didn’t believe in the Novus Ordo. If you read through the rest of my post, I noted that the Missal of Paul VI did not give Catholics the world over the authority to relativize and customize the Mass according to their own personal tastes, whims and idiosyncracies, resulting in a liturgy that is made up based on “one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”

Your editing is very deceptive, agapewolf. I am willing to engage in this debate with you, but, you have taken what I wrote completely out of context and are accusing me of beliving in something that is not true.

By the way, that is your experience. However, snhs and a couple of other teens who have contributed to this thread indicate otherwise.

B-gal, please believe me when I say that I was not trying to take you out of context. I’m sorry if it seemed that way…honestly I wasn’t…but the history of Your debate style is not fair at all. I try to argue point for point before, and you come back with something completely unrelated…and so I was trying to just argue the sentence and take out unneccessary information. The context afterward did not change the meaning of your sentence, it just added to it. At least in the way you stated it.

it was a simple statement you made, “the mass doesn’t need to change” that I was refuting. because that was the simple statement that YOU were refuting to gemma rose. She argued that it did need to change. I’m supporting her point.

And as you are bringing up the folks that have posted here about
not liking the Mass, there have been others that like it that have posted here, and you tell them they are wrong. (even a poor 8th grader) Sorry, that reason doesn’t cut it either.THere are thousands of teens all over the world affected by this ministry.

 

[benedictgal]

“the mass doesn’t need to change” that I was refuting. because that was the simple statement that YOU were refuting to gemma rose. She argued that it did need to change. I’m supporting her point.

And as you are bringing up the folks that have posted here about
not liking the Mass, there have been others that like it that have posted here, and you tell them they are wrong. (even a poor 8th grader) Sorry, that reason doesn’t cut it either.THere are thousands of teens all over the world affected by this ministry.

Affected in what manner, apapewolf? Have they remained in the Church or have they left because things were not all as they appeared.

You say that the Mass needs to change. That is a very poor understanding of the Holy Sacrifice. It is not the Mass that needs changing, but, we ourselves and our attitudes. When people change the Mass for because they have the misguided belief that they are “improving to the liturgy” by adding their own personal tastes and idiosyncracies, that is wrong. Redemptionis Sacramentum notes:

7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.18 This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

Furthermore, Redemptionis Sacramentum adds:

11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.27 On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free rein to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,28 and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,29 but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.30 The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.31

Therefore, change for the sake of change should not be taking place when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Mind you, I am not even touching the end result of the Second Vatican Council, the Missal of Paul VI. I refer to changes based on personal taste, novelty, idiosyncracies and the notion that the Mass needs to be “enlivened”, as if it had some sort of deficiency. When parish websites like those in Houston and in Georgia advertise LifeTeen Masses as alive and full of celebration, that is somewhat dubious. What happened to the Mass being the Holy Sacrifice? What happened to the fact that this is the Church’s most sacred treasure?

 

[agapewolf]

You’ve just proven my point that you don’t debate point for point.

THe church has PROVEN That the mass needs to change…it proved it by changing it. First from the last supper to the Bishop’s home. Then to the TLM, now to the N.O. thats all I’m saying. I am in NO WAY talking about about anything else here. It is not a poor understanding of the mass to say it can change. The church changed it. Period.

and I have spoken about the affects on teenagers over and over. You would do well to actually READ my posts. VOCATIONS …our seminary is overloaded…and many came from LT programs.

3 of our 4 ordained last year were from LT programs. That is in my diocese alone.

and you knew EXACTLY what I was saying when I said they were affected by it, there was no need to insert such a sarcastic statement about leaving the church. I have proven my point in this so many times. It is SO tiring.

I’m tired. I’m exhausted from this. I’m done with it. …again.
I’m going to go call a teenager and hope that someone didn’t yell at him for praying “wrong”…so that she won’t ever go back to church again.

 

[benedictgal]

Agapewolf, your argument details the organic growth of the Mass; however, the LifeTeen Mass doesn’t fall under that organic growth.

Furthermore, LifeTeen is based on the founder’s idiosyncracies and personal tastes and his perceived notion that he must “improve” the Mass. Read this passage from a speech Cardinal Arinze made in 2005:

The Second Vatican Council is not ambiguous: “Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established”. Then the Council adds the warning: “Therefore, absolutely no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”. (SC 22)

These rulings are not a sign of lack of respect for anyone. They follow from the fact that the liturgy is a celebration of the universal Church. “The prayers addressed to God by the priest who presides over the assembly in the person of Christ are said in the name of the entire holy people as well as of all present. And the visible signs used by the liturgy to signify invisible divine things have been chosen by Christ or the Church”. (SC 33)

***From these considerations it follows that a do-it-yourself attitude is not acceptable in the public worship of the Church. It does damage to the Church’s worship and to the faith of the people. The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it. (cf RS 12) The mysteries of Christ should not be celebrated as personal taste or whim may indicate. ***“The ‘treasure’ is too important and precious to risk impoverishment or compromise through forms of experimentation or practices introduced without a careful review on the part of ecclesiastical authorities”. (EE 51)

Certainly the youth have the right “that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it.” But, when novelties and idiosyncracies are introduced, therein lies the problem. These do not constitute organic growth. They make up something else that may be a part of the so-called spirit of the Second Vatican Council, but are very far from what the documents actually say.

Now, you may have instances of success, but, based on what I have read throughout these threads, LifeTeen carries with it some significant problems. You have a great devotion to your program, but, you need to step back and look at the whole picture.

For example, you say that the kids have stopped gathering around the altar as soon as the founder issued his letter (although as late as 2006, there was a parish in Georgia that was touting this kind of LifeTeen liturgical activity in their bulletin; a parish in Houston was also promoting this in their LifeTeen webpage). However, you never explained what percepitated his writing the letter in the first place. The letter states that now they are following the (new 2000) GIRM. However, having read the previous GIRM for the Missal of Paul VI, there was nothing in the rubrics, much less the document itself, that indicates that what LifeTeen was doing was in conformity with it in the first place.

Furthermore, the founder writes that the young people will be disappointed with the changes. However, how can they be disappointed if what they were doing was against the norms in the first place? The kids are not at fault if the ones in charge were encouraging this disregard for the rubrics.

These are very real issues and problems that plague LifeTeen. Now, out of fairness, the movement is not the only one with their share of questionable liturgical activities. I have repeatedly cited the NeoCatechumenal movement and their issues because it’s the same song, different verse. They claimed that John Paul II gave them permission to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in their own way (and misled many priests into having to celebrate this particular liturgy in a way that bothered and troubled them–yes, I have been to one such Mass and it was most disturbing, with several violations of RS all over the place). However, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments indicated that no indult had been offered, much less given.

Yet, when Pope Benedict XVI read them the riot act and gave them two years to cease and desist, the movement’s leader took the Holy Father’s actions as a mere suggestion. Now that the window of opportunity is closed, I am curious to see if they are obeying the Holy Father or if it’s still business as usual. Mind you, Benedict didn’t question their catechesis; it was the way that they were handling the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that was most troubling. That is why I see some parallels between this movement and LifeTeen.

 

[snhs]

THe church has PROVEN That the mass needs to change…it proved it by changing it. First from the last supper to the Bishop’s home. Then to the TLM, now to the N.O. thats all I’m saying. I am in NO WAY talking about about anything else here. It is not a poor understanding of the mass to say it can change. The church changed it. Period.

and I have spoken about the affects on teenagers over and over. You would do well to actually READ my posts. VOCATIONS …our seminary is overloaded…and many came from LT programs.

3 of our 4 ordained last year were from LT programs. That is in my diocese alone.

and you knew EXACTLY what I was saying when I said they were affected by it, there was no need to insert such a sarcastic statement about leaving the church. I have proven my point in this so many times. It is SO tiring.

I’m tired. I’m exhausted from this. I’m done with it. …again.
I’m going to go call a teenager and hope that someone didn’t yell at him for praying “wrong”…so that she won’t ever go back to church again.

Well perhaps you would do well to read just how many vocations are occurring within traditionalist groups both for priestly vocations and religious orders. Your seminary in one diocese may be overloaded but in case you aren’t aware the vast majority of dioceses in America and the rest of the Western world have a vocations shortage despite youth Masses etc. If there is a strong and proactive advocacy for the faith from Priests and Bishops then vocations will come because they will see a life worth living, not because of superficial movements like LT or the music. Try looking at those diocese with a faithful and orthodox Bishop where they get vocations without gimmicks.

I’m interested how this ‘him’ you are phoning became a ‘she’ by the end of the post.

 

[agapewolf]

Well perhaps you would do well to read just how many vocations are occurring within traditionalist groups both for priestly vocations and religious orders. Your seminary in one diocese may be overloaded but in case you aren’t aware the vast majority of dioceses in America and the rest of the Western world have a vocations shortage despite youth Masses etc. If there is a strong and proactive advocacy for the faith from Priests and Bishops then vocations will come because they will see a life worth living, not because of superficial movements like LT or the music. Try looking at those diocese with a faithful and orthodox Bishop where they get vocations without gimmicks.

I’m interested how this ‘him’ you are phoning became a ‘she’ by the end of the post.

It was a metaphorical teenager…I did it on purpose.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

It was a metaphorical teenager…I did it on purpose.

As someone who has spent too much time trying to keep kids in Church when they were disturbed that the Mass actually looked like a Mass here at the college center, I have been reading along. There is a saying, “hard cases make bad law”, that particular disturbing incidents don’t make a good basis for instituting change taken just by themselves. However, you seem to have been relying on the “hard cases” quite a bit as your reasons for defending very inorganic changes to the mass, and now it appears that you are making up your hard cases for emotional effect within a discussion, and by doing so have, with a simple admission, totally destroyed your remaining credibility.

 

[palmas85]

This is an open question to Agape and the other Life Teen supporters here. I don’t mean any disrespect but I would like your opinion on something.

The Life Teen founder, Dale Fushek, used his personal vision to set up the whole Life Teen program I would assume. He has now set up the nondenominational Praise and Worship Center in Mesa Arizona. From what I have heard, they follow the Life Teen model almost to the letter, yet it is completely non Catholic.

How do you feel that impacts upon Life teen? He has taken something that he initially put forth as a totally Catholic inspired event and now presents it as nondenominational or interfaith.

Any explanation or thoughts on this?

 

[agapewolf]

This is an open question to Agape and the other Life Teen supporters here. I don’t mean any disrespect but I would like your opinion on something.

The Life Teen founder, Dale Fushek, used his personal vision to set up the whole Life Teen program I would assume. He has now set up the nondenominational Praise and Worship Center in Mesa Arizona. From what I have heard, they follow the Life Teen model almost to the letter, yet it is completely non Catholic.

How do you feel that impacts upon Life teen? He has taken something that he initially put forth as a totally Catholic inspired event and now presents it as nondenominational or interfaith.

Any explanation or thoughts on this?

Dale fusheck’s new center is not based on any lifeteen model. It’s impossible seeing as how the LT model is based around a Mass, and is for teenagers. By the very definition, whatever “model” they follow cannot be the same.

Fushek is in disobedience of the church from what I understand, which greatly disappoints me. But just as other priests have caused scandal in many ways, I do not blame the church. So this fact that he is doing wrong things does not make LT at fault nor invalid.

 

[palmas85]

Dale fusheck’s new center is not based on any lifeteen model. It’s impossible seeing as how the LT model is based around a Mass, and is for teenagers. By the very definition, whatever “model” they follow cannot be the same.

Fushek is in disobedience of the church from what I understand, which greatly disappoints me. But just as other priests have caused scandal in many ways, I do not blame the church. So this fact that he is doing wrong things does not make LT at fault nor invalid.

I didn’t say it was wrong or invalid. I said that from everything I’ve heard and seen reported for that matter his new enterprise seems to follow exactly what he put forth for Life Teen. Since these assemblies seem to follow the same basic activities as a Life Teen event, it would seem that they were based on the same general model.

 

[grandprixmama6]

As a pre vatican ll catholic, I sat through many Latin Masses with Latin hymns…I know them all, and even sang them in the 7th and 8th grade…the old Latin Hymns are truly part of our Catholic Heritage…and now, as a post vatican ll Catholic, I still love and rever the old hymns, but have come to love the contemporay ones as well…the church has changed in many ways…but the sacrifice of the Mass is still the same…there is nothing wrong with adapting the liturgy and the music to fit today’'s youth, as long as the message of the Mass remains the same…the homilist plays an important role in conveying that message…he/she needs to get the message across to our youth…somehow engage them and bring them into the liturgy…so that when they leave the church, they will have something to ponder and put into action for the week ahead…I don’t think our youth is always getting the right message regarding just what the Mass is all about…

 

[agapewolf]

I didn’t say it was wrong or invalid. I said that from everything I’ve heard and seen reported for that matter his new enterprise seems to follow exactly what he put forth for Life Teen. Since these assemblies seem to follow the same basic activities as a Life Teen event, it would seem that they were based on the same general model.

The lifeteen model, as I have explained before, is a youth mass, followed by a lifenight in which there is catechesis, issues discussed, or social activities for high school teens. (That only explains the actual meeting activity…its far more broad than that).

I don’t understand what kind of basic activities you are referring to or what a “lifeteen event” is.

 

[benedictgal]

As a pre vatican ll catholic, I sat through many Latin Masses with Latin hymns…I know them all, and even sang them in the 7th and 8th grade…the old Latin Hymns are truly part of our Catholic Heritage…and now, as a post vatican ll Catholic, I still love and rever the old hymns, but have come to love the contemporay ones as well…the church has changed in many ways…but the sacrifice of the Mass is still the same…there is nothing wrong with adapting the liturgy and the music to fit today’'s youth, as long as the message of the Mass remains the same…the homilist plays an important role in conveying that message…he/she needs to get the message across to our youth…somehow engage them and bring them into the liturgy…so that when they leave the church, they will have something to ponder and put into action for the week ahead…I don’t think our youth is always getting the right message regarding just what the Mass is all about…

However, if you were to look at one of the hymnals LifeTeen uses (OCP’s Spirit and Song), you will find that many of these contemporary hymns are Protestant praise and worship music that has little in common with sound Catholic doctrine, dogma and liturgical theology. The other big problem is that while the Mass went through an organic change as a result of the Second Vatican Council, many groups and individuals decided to put their own “stamp” on the Holy Sacrifice by inserting and adapting their personal tastes and idiosyncracies to the liturgy in the so-called “spirit” of VII. Well, the “spirit” is 180 degrees to the opposite of what the Council actually said. Therein lies the problem.

That is why when the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist prepared their discussion, one of the problems they brought up centered on the music used at these Youth Masses. Furthermore, inasmuch as everyone talks about how the late Pope John Paul II was a major force in getting the youth involved, many may not have read his own Chirograph on Sacred Music which says, in part:

. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.

…St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

1. Another principle, affirmed by St Pius X in the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini and which is closely connected with the previous one, is that of sound form. There can be no music composed for the celebration of sacred rites which is not first of all “true art” or which does not have that efficacy “which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her Liturgy the art of musical sounds”[15].

Unfortunately, this is the kind of music that is being used for LifeTeen Masses and other liturgies involving youth. These songs do not have the spiritual depth found in hymns that make up the Church’s 2,000+ year treasury of Sacred Music. Furthermore, these songs emphasize the community and the “I” of the group and person as opposed to the “Thou” or the “Wholly Other” of God. They emphasize the community or the individual person as the actor (Lord, I Lift Your Name on High or I Will Choose Christ), which, although it is an affirmation of a belief, doesn’t really say much else.

These are some serious issues that need to be looked at. Furthermore, as our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis:

we cannot say that one song is as good as another

when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is something totally different. It has rubrics and norms and, it demands a certain kind of music.

 

[Holland]

I’m not one of those younger people you requested an answer from but I can give you my observations. They have a “youth Mass” every Sunday at 9AM in my parish. When I have to attend this Mass I notice the only people clapping during the Gloria are the adults. The kids look mostly uncomfortable to me. Of course, I don’t clap during the Gloria either so my observation may be clouded somewhat.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m not one of those younger people you requested an answer from but I can give you my observations. They have a “youth Mass” every Sunday at 9AM in my parish. When I have to attend this Mass I notice the only people clapping during the Gloria are the adults. The kids look mostly uncomfortable to me. Of course, I don’t clap during the Gloria either so my observation may be clouded somewhat.

Actually, the Gloria you heard should not even be used as a part of the Mass because it is a paraphrase of the prayer and because of the hand-clapping. OCP had already been told to remove the Walker version of the Gloria from its service music section and place it in the hymnal section. What was most embarassing was when the Red Mass committee paid a supposedly liturgically trained organist/cantor to sing for the Mass and she used this Gloria. Kind of strange to see staid judges in robes clapping to this one, but, it happened.

 

[jc-servant]

However, if you were to look at one of the hymnals LifeTeen uses (OCP’s Spirit and Song), you will find that many of these contemporary hymns are Protestant praise and worship music that has little in common with sound Catholic doctrine, dogma and liturgical theology.

Please stop extrapolating your limited experience with LT to the entire ministry everywhere with your generalized statements of what LT does or does not do. I have been to many LT masses at multiple parishes in more than one diocese and Core University for LT volunteers and never seen this hymnal in use. If it is in use at one parish that you have seen or in a certain diocese, then state that as the basis for your argument. In fact, my music director has written some soundly Catholic songs with contemporary settings for OCP and we still don’t use the hymnals you reference for our LT mass.

If your point is valid then you should not need to stretch the facts to make it.

 

[Ann_Onemus]

Well the latest Youth Mass setting is certainly different.

WYD2008 (World Youth Day 2008), an organisation reporting to the Vatican through the Pontifical Council for the Laity, has just launched the Mass Setting for this year’s World Youth Day in Sydney in July 2008.

It is the first official publication of the new texts of Mass and exhorts all English-speaking parishes throughout the world to begin using this Mass setting in preparation for the World Youth Day event.

It sets a new standard for youth Masses!

Check it out at wyd2008.org/wydmass

 

[benedictgal]

Well the latest Youth Mass setting is certainly different.

WYD2008 (World Youth Day 2008), an organisation reporting to the Vatican through the Pontifical Council for the Laity, has just launched the Mass Setting for this year’s World Youth Day in Sydney in July 2008.

It is the first official publication of the new texts of Mass and exhorts all English-speaking parishes throughout the world to begin using this Mass setting in preparation for the World Youth Day event.

It sets a new standard for youth Masses!

Check it out at wyd2008.org/wydmass

Unfortunately, my computer at work doesn’t allow me to download music. Does anyone have a clue as to how this sounds? Does it sound like an English version of what is normally played at the Sistene Chapel?

 

[Michael_Welter]

Unfortunately, my computer at work doesn’t allow me to download music. Does anyone have a clue as to how this sounds? Does it sound like an English version of what is normally played at the Sistene Chapel?

I just listened to the Kyrie and Gloria. They’re beautiful. They sould like traditional choral music with organ accompaniment.

 

[benedictgal]

I just listened to the Kyrie and Gloria. They’re beautiful. They sould like traditional choral music with organ accompaniment.

I managed to listen to the Gloria and the Sanctus (during lunch) and they are exceptional. I certainly hope that these will supplant whatever is being played at LifeTeen and at other Youth Masses. This certainly serves as an excellent way to introduce young people to sacred music. It also proves a major point: you don’t need to be tied down to the guitar and drums to make an impact. Blessed be Benedict for putting his stamp on this!