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Manfred
Guest
I stand with benedictgal and support fully the above eloquent and elegant denunciation of frivolous and doctrinally-ambiguous and/or erroneous “liturgical” practices.
- Status
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snhs
Guest
Well most of the Priests I have met give different homilies at each Mass, as one example on Christmas Sunday the P.P. delivered at least 3 separate homilies, the same occurs throughout the year. This Priest would have been trained post VII but he’s far from recently ordained.
I didn’t mean to come across as rude however it seems odd for you to say that you knew your Cathechism and had a deep faith yet voluntarily elected to miss Mass on the basis of a few bad homilies.
There is poor Cathechisis and I think its swiftly becoming universal. I think part of that problem originates from many parents not knowing enough of their own faith to pass on a real passion for it to their children. At what point is Jesus not Jesus then? A valid consecration is required but if consecration is the only criteria then there is no limit to what can be going on in the surroundings. You can’t instill a deep knowledge of anything in someone unless they want to learn it. If you inspire then by live examples in the faith then they will want to learn it. Not so long ago obviously that example would have been mainly via parents but with children wanting to act out, now or in the 70s, they go away from that faithful example even if they do lead such lives. We have literally thousands of Saints there are also significant numbers of faithful religious and priests any number of whom could inspire children in the faith. If they see/hear of such people who gain strength from the Eucharistic sacrifice then it is inevitable that they will want to know more of it and will go to Mass/learn about their faith etc.
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snhs
Guest
If you call it a youth Mass and all their friends are going to it don’t you think there is a remote possibility that they may feel a pressure to conform with the norm by going to it as well? Do you not think that in schools/parishes where the vast majority of the youth go to one Mass it might seem odd for them to be going to other Masses and that it may be questioned by their friends? Do you not think that if they publicly express a preference for Gregorian chant they might be mocked for it?
Latin is the official language of the Church and has been for centuries. If anything it is the vernacular which has an individualistic emphasis. If we all join in the sacrifice of Mass in the same language across the whole world then surely it is the antithesis of individualism as quite literally everyone, in the Church at least, is doing it. That being the case the Latin Mass should not be considered as individualistic as Teen music for example. As for Gregorian Chant isn’t it predominantly used in sung responses/forms etc of Mass. That being the case it is an official practice of the Church, not one decided upon on a whim by music/youth ministries.
That subjectivity is precisely why we should be more careful about adding the kind of youth Mass etc you advocate. If we have generic Masses, either in Latin, the vernacular or both, and the celebrant gives a reverent Mass in accordance with the rubrics then there is not going to be anything which significantly detracts from the focus of the Mass. There will always be little niggles for some about the type/quality of the music/homily etc but at least you can be fairly sure people aren’t avoiding a certain Mass time(s) because they know there’s loud rock music, for example.
On the choir point it takes younger voices time to develop/settle etc. It would be unfair for example for a 16 y/o girl to be allowed in the choir while her 16y/o twin brother would be excluded until his voice had settled. Young children could also damage the voices by trying to mimic the sound quality/volume of the older people in the choir. As to a lector being 18 don’t you think there should be some point at which they are considered able to do the readings and lead the prayers. No matter what age/maturity limit a Priest set people would complain about it, at least with a generic age it removes bias from the system. It is not a right for anyone to participate in any ministry during the Mass. In my view such systems make this clear and are one way to ensure proper respect amongst everyone for the ministries which they eventually participate in.
You presume that is because of the music though. Its an invalid experiment given that they are most likely to follow the crowd/go to the same mass as their friends. If they know notices relating to youth events will only be given at one Mass its a further incentive for them to go to that Mass. There is also a factor of scheduling if there is a particular time they find more desirable/easier to get to.
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Manfred
Guest
AquinaSavio,
You are the second home-schooled student I met on these forums that is wise beyond his years, and I salute you.
With an attitude such as this one, I do hope you are considering a more “traditional” order of priests to join, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter. While some of the other religious orders could use many more like you, I am fearful that they have ways of “squelching” anyone who wants to move in the direction of “a reform of the reform”.
Deus te benedicat.
G
GemmaRose
Guest
Benedictgal, I do wish you would describe the “idiosyncrasies” you consistently refer to.
Further,
Since no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere, this should not be a problem for the teen who prefers a “non-Youth” Mass or even a Latin Mass. In fact, those teens could be the best catechizers of their peers who ask, “You go to that Mass?” when they respond, “Well come with me and see.”
You have no idea how much I thank God for leading me back to the Church and the Sacraments.
Benedictgal, I, too, stand with the “countless men and women who have been nourished in the faith through a tradition that goes back two millennia”. If you think I do not, you are judging me, which (a) you have no right to do, and (b) in fact is sinful.
The Church has evolved throughout the ages. If anyone so heartily supports the “tradition” of which you speak, they would be insisting that Eucharist be celebrated in the context of a community meal as it was in the earliest days of the Church. Were our forefathers wrong to do so? No. That’s just how it was done in the beginning.
Likewise, if anyone really wants authentic tradition, our Masses should be celebrated in Aramaic. That’s how the first one was celebrated. That’s the language used in the early Eucharistic celebrations. Were they wrong in celebrating in the Aramaic language? No. That was the language they spoke.
Just because the language of the Roman Empire was Latin and the Church adopted it as its own since it was the language of the educated of that time, doesn’t mean it’s the common language now. (Actually, English is spoken, taught, or understood in nearly every country of the world today. If anything, it would make sense for the Church to adopt English as the official language.)
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Further,
You make rash generalizations here. The *last thing *“the type of music” I use is “sorely deficient” in anything.
Contemporary Protestant Praise and Worship songs are no worse than many things contained in our missalettes. However, I normally do not use them for liturgical purposes, at any “type” of Mass.
The goal is to get them to go to Mass. Any Mass. If a “Youth Mass” gets them to go, then that’s what works. Once they’ve started attending a Mass, they can be exposed to other forms of music, such as Gregorian Chant. You can’t just whack them over the head with Gregorian Chant if they don’t even know things like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.” They’ll never be exposed to it if they don’t go to church in the first place. And speaking of pressure, no one is forced to go to any Mass, as opposed to my Catholic upbringing where we were forced to attend a certain Mass.
Since no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere, this should not be a problem for the teen who prefers a “non-Youth” Mass or even a Latin Mass. In fact, those teens could be the best catechizers of their peers who ask, “You go to that Mass?” when they respond, “Well come with me and see.”
As I tried to explain, I did not see a connection between the faith in my heart and what I saw going on in the church… and it wasn’t “a few” bad homilies. It was a weekly talk about money. The poor priests were forced to do this by an elderly, domineering pastor who stalked the back of the church until the celebrant was finished speaking, to make sure that the appropriate requests for money were made. And any juvenile attempts at recollection were nearly impossible with nuns constantly poking us in the back and admonishing not to fidget. Let’s face it: kids fidget.
You have no idea how much I thank God for leading me back to the Church and the Sacraments.
Benedictgal, I, too, stand with the “countless men and women who have been nourished in the faith through a tradition that goes back two millennia”. If you think I do not, you are judging me, which (a) you have no right to do, and (b) in fact is sinful.
The Church has evolved throughout the ages. If anyone so heartily supports the “tradition” of which you speak, they would be insisting that Eucharist be celebrated in the context of a community meal as it was in the earliest days of the Church. Were our forefathers wrong to do so? No. That’s just how it was done in the beginning.
Likewise, if anyone really wants authentic tradition, our Masses should be celebrated in Aramaic. That’s how the first one was celebrated. That’s the language used in the early Eucharistic celebrations. Were they wrong in celebrating in the Aramaic language? No. That was the language they spoke.
Just because the language of the Roman Empire was Latin and the Church adopted it as its own since it was the language of the educated of that time, doesn’t mean it’s the common language now. (Actually, English is spoken, taught, or understood in nearly every country of the world today. If anything, it would make sense for the Church to adopt English as the official language.)
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GemmaRose
Guest
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Likewise, just because Gregorian Chant was a mode of music in the past, doesn’t mean that it’s the number one musical choice now. (Believe me or not, I do wish it was used more often so that people, young and old, would be exposed to it.)
Notice how I’ve never said to throw out Latin or Gregorian Chant? That’s because I don’t advocate to do so. I advocate a mixture of music. However, for most younger people, a more contemporary sounding music is what they prefer. And if they prefer it, they will go to Mass. Isn’t that what we’re trying to do? Get them to go to Mass??? Young people who have not been well-catechized, and have not been shown good example by their parents, will never learn the value of Mass if they don’t go in the first place.
(Honestly, this is not a diatribe against you, benedictgal.)
And the more contemporary liturgical hymns, most of which are taken directly from Scripture, are “bread and circus”?
Likewise, just because Gregorian Chant was a mode of music in the past, doesn’t mean that it’s the number one musical choice now. (Believe me or not, I do wish it was used more often so that people, young and old, would be exposed to it.)
Notice how I’ve never said to throw out Latin or Gregorian Chant? That’s because I don’t advocate to do so. I advocate a mixture of music. However, for most younger people, a more contemporary sounding music is what they prefer. And if they prefer it, they will go to Mass. Isn’t that what we’re trying to do? Get them to go to Mass??? Young people who have not been well-catechized, and have not been shown good example by their parents, will never learn the value of Mass if they don’t go in the first place.
(Honestly, this is not a diatribe against you, benedictgal.)
(You might also note that I have never advocated “personal idiosyncrasies, novelties and innovations”, whatever they might be.)
- Nowhere in any of my posts have I advocated “hand-clapping”, which I don’t particularly like in Church myself.
- I’m not exactly sure which songs you’re referring as those that “celebrate the community”. But, why should we not celebrate our Catholic community? Is not the Church the “People of God”?
- I find it VERY INTERESTING that two words you have chosen to describe your preferred style of Mass are “solemnity” and “sobriety”. Let’s see what the dictionary says:
Solemn (meaning 2):
Sobriety (meaning 3):
So, young people are supposed to find meaning in a joyless, humorless Mass which lacks vitality or brightness.
- Hymns grounded in faith -
And the more contemporary liturgical hymns, most of which are taken directly from Scripture, are “bread and circus”?
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GemmaRose
Guest
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No, that’s not what I said. I said:
These things have changed, times have changed, abuses corrected. And the Church has marched forward. Have teachings or doctrines changed? Am I advocating to do away with teachings and doctrine? No. I am advocating growth.
Have you ever been to Italy? I have. All of the older buildings, and even some of the modern ones, have outside wall shrines. If you look to the left, you might see a shrine with the Holy Family. If you look to the right, you might see a shrine for our Blessed Mother. I remember one street which ended at a “T” intersection, and right where the street ended, there was a life-size Crucifix shrine.
What do our young people see when they look around? Half-naked people in underwear ads! What do they see every time they buy a pack of gum? Condoms - always right near the register. What are they confronted with every day in high school? Peers talking about sex and drugs and how “cool” it is to do it. What is contained in the TV they watch, the movies they see, the video games they play? Violence and sex.
How many homes do not even have a Bible or a crucifix, much less a statue of Jesus or Mary?!
Did Gemma, Dominic, Maria or Gabriel need a Life Teen Mass? No. Might they need one if they lived in today’s world? Maybe.
*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani
No, that’s not what I said. I said:
Today is 2008, not 1708. We have put aside horses and buggies in favor of automobiles, and choose to have electricity installed in our homes. In the same way, the Church, as the living, breathing Body of Christ on earth, must grow and adapt to cultural changes as it has over the centuries, and not stagnate in centuries gone by. As I stated above, if the Church had not grown and evolved with the times, we would be sitting around someone’s dining room table praying in Aramaic on Sunday mornings. To move it up several centuries, maybe we should go back to Renaissance times when the rich sat in reserved seats at the front of the church while the poor commoners stood at the back. Oh, and let me not forget - I have some indulgences for sale!
These things have changed, times have changed, abuses corrected. And the Church has marched forward. Have teachings or doctrines changed? Am I advocating to do away with teachings and doctrine? No. I am advocating growth.
Gemma, Dominic, Maria (and let’s not forget Gabriel!) lived in a totally different society and culture than ours. They didn’t need Life Teen Masses because (1) they were raised in deeply religious families, (2) were taught their faith from the earliest days, (3) lived in a culture and atmosphere where faith and symbols of faith were everywhere. No home was without a Crucifix, a statue of the Sacred Heart and/or Our Lady. (I actually don’t even know what the Teen Life Liturgy Planning Guide is. Our youth Masses basically just have contemporary music, a homily directed more to young people, and some “shtick” after Mass, such as giving out pieces of birthday cake decorated with “Happy Birthday Jesus” on Christmas or “Happy Birthday Mother Church” on Pentecost – not inside the church by the way!!)
Have you ever been to Italy? I have. All of the older buildings, and even some of the modern ones, have outside wall shrines. If you look to the left, you might see a shrine with the Holy Family. If you look to the right, you might see a shrine for our Blessed Mother. I remember one street which ended at a “T” intersection, and right where the street ended, there was a life-size Crucifix shrine.
What do our young people see when they look around? Half-naked people in underwear ads! What do they see every time they buy a pack of gum? Condoms - always right near the register. What are they confronted with every day in high school? Peers talking about sex and drugs and how “cool” it is to do it. What is contained in the TV they watch, the movies they see, the video games they play? Violence and sex.
How many homes do not even have a Bible or a crucifix, much less a statue of Jesus or Mary?!
Did Gemma, Dominic, Maria or Gabriel need a Life Teen Mass? No. Might they need one if they lived in today’s world? Maybe.
Probably yes. Because Eucharist is Eucharist, and Jesus is Jesus - the same, yesterday, today and forever. Amen!
*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani
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buffalo
Guest
The truth from Jesus as handed down through the Catholic Church must be preserved. We must always be on guard to water it down because of “the culture”.
The truth is relevant in all ages and in all cultures.
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GemmaRose
Guest
buffalo, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts that goes against “the truth” in any way, manner, shape or form.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which attempts to “water” down “the truth” in any way, manner, shape or form.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which suggests that “the truth” is not relevant “in all ages and in all cultures”.
From some of the posts in response to mine, one would think that I was advocating changing the Creed !!!
For such faith-filled Catholics, the amount of judgmental condemnation blithely tossed around amazes me.
*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which attempts to “water” down “the truth” in any way, manner, shape or form.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which suggests that “the truth” is not relevant “in all ages and in all cultures”.
From some of the posts in response to mine, one would think that I was advocating changing the Creed !!!
For such faith-filled Catholics, the amount of judgmental condemnation blithely tossed around amazes me.
*“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” *- St. Gemma Galgani
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benedictgal
Guest
GemmaRose, it’s not that those of us who do not advocate Youth Masses are being judgmental or condmening. The problem is that there are abuses that go in in these Masses and what we are transmitting to the young people is not necessarily the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as it should be celebrated.buffalo, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts that goes against “the truth” in any way, manner, shape or form.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which attempts to “water” down “the truth” in any way, manner, shape or form.
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any of my posts which suggests that “the truth” is not relevant “in all ages and in all cultures”.
From some of the posts in response to mine, one would think that I was advocating changing the Creed !!!
For such faith-filled Catholics, the amount of judgmental condemnation blithely tossed around amazes me.
The Church has norms and rubrics for a reason. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the personal property of an individual or a group, it belongs to the Universal Church.
Redemptionis Sacramentum, the 2004 document that the Holy See issued to combat liturgical uses, unequivocally states that Catholics have the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated under the norms and rubrics prescribed by the Church. These Catholics include young people.
The main issue lies in the fact that well-meaning individuals are trying to introduce and impose their own personal idiosyncracies into the Mass. They see the Mass as “dull and boring” (taken directly from the Houston St. Thomas Moore Parish LifeTeen website, and “feel” that they need to make “some improvements” to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That’s why they introduce such things as contemporary Protestant Praise and Worship music,
GemmaRose, it might be helpful if you could read Spirit of the Liturgy by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Please don’t think that I’m trying to be condescending or disrespectful (you were spot-on funny in the thread regarding the Stations of the Cross–don’t know if you read my posts), but, I think that part of the problem also lies in the fact that even though, as you noted, the Eucharist is the Eucharist and Jesus will come, we are also bound to follow the norms and rubrics so as to ensure that the Holy Sacrifice is celebrated in a worthy and solemn manner.
By the way, solemn doesn’t mean drudge. Catch the next Papal Mass telecast. There is beauty, dignity and solemntiy in the Holy Sacrifice, but, you don’t see long faces. Benedict may not sure joy or pleasure, but, that is not to say that the celebration isn’t beautiful. Besides, ultimately, the focus is on worshipping God in the correct and appropriate manner.
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japhy
Guest
I prefer these definitions of ‘solemn’:
sol·emn (sŏl’əm) adj.
** 1. Deeply earnest, serious, and sober.**
** 2. Somberly or gravely impressive. See synonyms at serious.**
** 3. Performed with full ceremony: a solemn High Mass.**
** 4. Invoking the force of religion; sacred: a solemn vow.**
5. Gloomy; somber.
Definition: impressive, sacred
Antonyms: frivolous, insignificant, ordinary, unimpressive, unsacred, usual
Definition: quiet, serious
Antonyms: frivolous, funny, laughing, light, light-hearted
Note the antonyms!
sol·emn (sŏl’əm) adj.
** 1. Deeply earnest, serious, and sober.**
** 2. Somberly or gravely impressive. See synonyms at serious.**
** 3. Performed with full ceremony: a solemn High Mass.**
** 4. Invoking the force of religion; sacred: a solemn vow.**
5. Gloomy; somber.
Definition: impressive, sacred
Antonyms: frivolous, insignificant, ordinary, unimpressive, unsacred, usual
Definition: quiet, serious
Antonyms: frivolous, funny, laughing, light, light-hearted
Note the antonyms!
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AquinaSavio
Guest
Gemma,
Church traditions certainly had to start somewhere. They came when the Church was in its very early stages of development. Just because the early Church leaders established new traditions does not mean that we have to do the same. Millions of new traditions could be started by the Church…but that would be disastrous. The Church has changed some things down through the ages, but not that much. Some people act as if we have to establish new traditions regularly on a time schedule.
It is also interesting to note that the abuses you just spoke of sprouted from influences of the culture at that time. The Church was perhaps trying to appeal to the rich people by letting them sit in the front…but was that indeed the right thing to do? Catering to a certain group of people is not beneficial and really should be avoided.
You’re falling into a trap that is very easily missed. I have fallen into it, too. But I would like to name it: idealizing the past.
St. Dominic: at St. John Bosco’s oratory, there were images of pornography which always upset St. Dominic. The boys there were thieves and led very immoral lives. Does that suggest a perfect society? Far from it.
St. Maria: She was in a good family, yes…but the neighbor boy wanted to rape her. Perfect society? Not so.
Every age has its problems with these sort of problems. Yes, this age is probably worse. But does the Church need to change Herself to suit the times? No…the times must change themselves to suit Her. And who alone can influence the times? God. So, rather than relying on ourselves and our own innovations, why not pray for the young people to start attending Mass and leave the Church unchanged? We young people don’t need special privileges.
M
Michael_Welter
Guest
I’ve seen abuses in all styles of Mass, including the TLM. A “Youth Mass” can, and should, be done with absolutley no abuses and no watering down of Catholicism.
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snhs
Guest
That was directly related to the pressure on young people to conform you had asked how so I was pointing out ways in which the kind of youth Masses you advocate can add additional pressure to conform on those who do have a preference for a more traditional Mass/type of music.
The goal is not nor should it be to get them to Mass. It should be to bring them to an understanding of what their faith is about. Once they have that understanding they will not the kind of gimmicks associated with youth Masses they will want to go because it is the Mass. If the only way to bring them to that understanding is by using a certain kind of music then go ahead but have a separate dance/concert rather than trying to change the Mass to convenience personal preference.
It is not a question of being forced, it is a simple question of whether introducing such youth Masses could add additional pressure to the very people they are alleged to help.
When Latin was first adopted it was partly because of the Roman Empire, but it was also because it was the universal language of the time. You can argue that now English is the common tongue, but try telling the French to celebrate all their Masses in English. The reality is that the very fact it is not our daily language adds an additional emphasis to the sanctity of the Mass. It acts as a reminder of our universal faith and the transcendent nature of Our Lord’s sacrifice.
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benedictgal
Guest
Oh really, I’m most curious about the abuses in the TLM since it was pretty much straight forward as far as the rubrics were concenred (33 signs of the cross, prayers at the foot of the altar, etc). While perhaps there may have been abuses, there were very serious penatlties for whoever engaged in them.
Unfortunately, from the Youth Masses that I’ve experienced, it’s more of a feel-good experience with very little substance.
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Michael_Welter
Guest
The point I’m trying to make is that the Mass should be done the same, regardless of who attending, with the exception, perhaps, of music and homily. The point has been made that the Mass should not be dumbed down for Youth, and I completely agree. A You Mass might have more contemporary music, and a homily that speaks to the issues that youth may be facing today. Other than that, it’s the same Mass.
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benedictgal
Guest
I conducted a review session for our New Testament class this evening. One of the students teaches elementary students at one of our diocesan schools. We were discussing the importance of correct worship (a facet of Jesus’ conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well). The teacher told me that she wasn’t very comfortable when the issue of Youth Masses came up at her former school because she perceived that things weren’t entirely Catholic in nature. This included the singing of contemporary Protestant praise and worship music and liturgical dance.
Now, she is younger than I am and was rather concerned about these things. Both of us understood the need to adjust the homily to the understanding of younger Catholics; however, the issue of music and “dance” was something that was very serious indeed. Although music in the Mass primarily focuses on the adoration and worship of God, the hymns need to be rich in Catholic doctrine, dogma and liturgical theology. These hymns also serve the purpose of teaching (and reinforcing) basic Catholic Faith and Truth. Hymns such as Our Father, We Have Wandered and the Attende Domine, remind us that we are sinners and need conversion and reconciliation. At that First Eucharist reminds us of the roots and foundation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I have been criticized by a few people in these threads for saying that the former Cardinal Ratzinger’s “dictatorship of relativism” also applies to the current state of the liturgy today. A few have said that I have twisted his words. However, if you carefully read the text, you will find that his comments are most appropriate to the kind of Masses we are having today:
This dangerous form of relativism has also crept into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. GemmaRose, you say that a lot has changed in 300 years. However, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass needs to remain the same. Inasmuch as one of the products of the Second Vatican Council was the Missal of Paul VI, this did not give Catholics the world over carte blanche to relativize and customize the Mass according to their own personal tastes, whims and idiosyncracies, resulting in a liturgy that is made up based on “one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”
Furthermore, these kinds of errors sweep up these youngsters and toss them to and fro by these waves. They wind up thinking that the Mass is something that needs to be entertaining. But, when they outgrow that notion and they have been given nothing substantive, then they become lost because the novelty is no longer there.
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agapewolf
Guest
So now you don’t believe in the N.O Mass? That doesn’t make any sense. THe church saw fit that the Mass needed to change…its a practice of the faith. It IS changeable. The Church did it herself.
and by the way, my teens do not think that the mass needs to be entertaining. They ARE being offered substance, so stop using that reason.
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strngrnrth
Guest
I went to Life Teen Mass about seven-and-a-half months ago and it was one of the first Masses I had ever been to, and I found it very reverent, FWIW. But I am far from a teen, I am a middle-aged woman.
As a teenager long ago I wished I knew what to believe so I could be religious.My Mom took me to try out a couple of Unitarian services. I couldn’t stand the smugness and banality. I wished for somethign real and serious and different in my world. Had someone taken me to a TLM I likely would have been very excited. Why do mature people think all young people have the same taste, a banal and bland and super-laid-back taste?
I personally see nothing wrong with Life Teen but I don’t see what it has to do with youth. I have seen a real mixture of ages at every Mass. It has more to do with personal style IMHO.
As a teenager long ago I wished I knew what to believe so I could be religious.My Mom took me to try out a couple of Unitarian services. I couldn’t stand the smugness and banality. I wished for somethign real and serious and different in my world. Had someone taken me to a TLM I likely would have been very excited. Why do mature people think all young people have the same taste, a banal and bland and super-laid-back taste?
I personally see nothing wrong with Life Teen but I don’t see what it has to do with youth. I have seen a real mixture of ages at every Mass. It has more to do with personal style IMHO.
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benedictgal
Guest
I never said that I didn’t believe in the Novus Ordo. If you read through the rest of my post, I noted that the Missal of Paul VI did not give Catholics the world over the authority to relativize and customize the Mass according to their own personal tastes, whims and idiosyncracies, resulting in a liturgy that is made up based on “one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”
Your editing is very deceptive, agapewolf. I am willing to engage in this debate with you, but, you have taken what I wrote completely out of context and are accusing me of beliving in something that is not true.
By the way, that is your experience. However, snhs and a couple of other teens who have contributed to this thread indicate otherwise.
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