Shouldn't liberalism/ progressivism/ modernism/ relativism/ emotionalism be considered a religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter livingwordunity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This country was the freest richest country in the history of the world. People who were dirt poor could become wealthy. You all would do well to read the US constitution and understand it is only for a religious and moral people. We have lost this now. This country is falling because of unconstitutional liberal ideals. I’ll keep ALL my God given constitutional rights. Thank you very much!

The CC over the years raised armies and fought wars.
The church never complained about heretics being burned at the stake.
The church has immense wealth and priceless art.
The Pope has bodyguards with real machine guns and rides around in an armored vehicle.
The Catholic Church did indeed raise armies and fight wars . . . but that hasn’t happened in quite some time now. Perhaps the Catholic Church has become more aware of the Holy Spirit moving within her. By the way, other religions, including Protestant religions, have also raised armies and fought wars.
The Catholic Church has never complained about heretics or others being burned at the stake? Really? Never? You can document that, I suppose, because, you know, I really would like to see the documentation of such a sweeping declaration.
The Catholic Church doesn not have immense wealth. Indeed, the yearly budget of the Vatican is much, much less than that of Harvard University . . . and Harvard doesn’t even have embassies to staff. As for the priceless art the Vatican holds . . . yes, it is priceless. In fact, it is so priceless, it is worthless. It cannot be sold or even borrowed against according to the laws of the Vatican City and probably of Italy as well. There is no way to make money off of this art except to sell tickets allowing tourists to view them, and then the money made from these ticket sales must go toward the upkeep of the buildings which house these artifacts and the restoration projects which they must constantly undergo. The Vatican sees itself, not as the owner of these art objects, but as the custodian of them and seeks to preserve them for the sake of humanity. Believe me, there is no money to be made from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. You can’t sell it like a jigsaw puzzle.
There may be some guards in the Vatican which have machine guns, but I certainly haven’t see them in evidence when Pope Francis has been riding around in his very open and unarmoured vehicle. This strikes me as rather dangerous, but I suppose the Holy Father has placed in faith in the Lord. It is generally a good thing for Christians to do.
 
This country was the freest richest country in the history of the world. People who were dirt poor could become wealthy.
Since when did wealth have anything to do with spirituality?
You all would do well to read the US constitution and understand it is only for a religious and moral people.
Jefferson was agnostic. Keeping religion out of government is a basic tenet of the constitution.
We have lost this now. This country is falling because of unconstitutional liberal ideals. I’ll keep ALL my God given constitutional rights.
Are you talking about keeping your gun? When the constitution was written, a firearm was a one shot flint musket for use on your homestead in the wilds of a great untamed continent, not a semi-automatic assault weapon used for mowing people down at a suburban shopping mall. The problem with some people is the lack of dimension in their thinking. And it’s hurting the rest of us. If you want to run wild and shoot at cans all day and avoid paying taxes and abiding by social convention, there’s a place for that. It’a called Montana.

I have a right to live and thrive without being threatened by people roaming about my community with assault weapons. My life is guaranteed under the same Constitution, and is more threatened by a person with an assault weapon than than a person with an assault weapon’s life is threatened by my objection to their fetish for carrying tools that are designed exclusively for the purpose of destroying human lives.
The CC over the years raised armies and fought wars.
Yes indeed. And right now the CC is fighting a war on poverty, a war on AIDS and a war to protect human life. And you don’t have to convert to Catholicism to join us.
 
Most big-government lovers seem to even have a god:

Their god is the planet earth’s environment - complete with a form of indulgences called carbon credits.
 
Since many liberals (aka progressives and formerly known as modernists) take their relativist activism to a zealous extreme and are very passionate about it as if it is the absolute unquestionable truth shouldn’t liberalism be considered a religion?
Nope. It’s called agnosticism and/or deism.
 
And my Church often backs me on many of my progressive liberal extremist ideas, such as speaking out against war, capital punishment, supporting social programs for the poor and protecting the environment.
I’ve always understood that the Catholic Church worked for peace, not just ‘speaking out against war.’

I’m also left curious on how your personal views square with the Catholic Church’s view of subsidiarity and abortion.
 
Many liberals or progressives like myself already have a religion. Specifically, I am a Roman Catholic who is a liberal on social issues. And my Church often backs me on many of my progressive liberal extremist ideas, such as speaking out against war, capital punishment, supporting social programs for the poor and protecting the environment. I am passionate on these issues as you have correctly said. But so is my Church.
So you support abortion, gay “marriage”, euthanasia and assisted suicide, embryonic stem-cell research and cloning, and for forcing religious institutions to provide contraception and abortifacients?

If not, then you aren’t socially liberal.
 
When the constitution was written, a firearm was a one shot flint musket for use on your homestead in the wilds of a great untamed continent
Of course, you’ll be turning off your computer now. Right?

With your peculiar logic, the 1st amendment only protects your use of vocalised speech and printing pamphlets on on 200 year old equipment.
 
The Catholic Church did indeed raise armies and fight wars . . . but that hasn’t happened in quite some time now. Perhaps the Catholic Church has become more aware of the Holy Spirit moving within her. By the way, other religions, including Protestant religions, have also raised armies and fought wars.
The Catholic Church has never complained about heretics or others being burned at the stake? Really? Never? You can document that, I suppose, because, you know, I really would like to see the documentation of such a sweeping declaration.
The Catholic Church doesn not have immense wealth. Indeed, the yearly budget of the Vatican is much, much less than that of Harvard University . . . and Harvard doesn’t even have embassies to staff. As for the priceless art the Vatican holds . . . yes, it is priceless. In fact, it is so priceless, it is worthless. It cannot be sold or even borrowed against according to the laws of the Vatican City and probably of Italy as well. There is no way to make money off of this art except to sell tickets allowing tourists to view them, and then the money made from these ticket sales must go toward the upkeep of the buildings which house these artifacts and the restoration projects which they must constantly undergo. The Vatican sees itself, not as the owner of these art objects, but as the custodian of them and seeks to preserve them for the sake of humanity. Believe me, there is no money to be made from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. You can’t sell it like a jigsaw puzzle.
There may be some guards in the Vatican which have machine guns, but I certainly haven’t see them in evidence when Pope Francis has been riding around in his very open and unarmoured vehicle. This strikes me as rather dangerous, but I suppose the Holy Father has placed in faith in the Lord. It is generally a good thing for Christians to do.
The fact still remains the church raised armies and fought wars. So do you believe they were not listening to the Holy Spirit then? I’m not complaining about nations protecting themselves form evil. Gary’s complaint implied conservatives were for wholesale war.

It is a fact of history the church the condoned the death of those were heretics and supported capital punishment.

The church owns bank and is reported to have a Billion in gold. Maybe a Billion is not what it used to be. The fact still remains the church has control over immense wealth.

The Pope mobile is a bullet proof vehicle and his body guards have machine guns.

I’m not complaining about any of it. Just pointing out the hipocracy of liberal ideals. They want to deny you of what they have.
 
This country was the freest richest country in the history of the world. People who were dirt poor could become wealthy. You all would do well to read the US constitution and understand it is only for a religious and moral people. We have lost this now. This country is falling because of unconstitutional liberal ideals. I’ll keep ALL my God given constitutional rights. Thank you very much!
The Constitution was based on the ideals of Liberalism (classical). Now those ideas are coming to fruitition.
 
Hi Gary,

You basically provide the other side of Catholicism.

It is even better that all Catholics learn more fully their faith and live it out. JPII and many of us opposed the Iraq war.

St. Francis asked his seculars not to carry weapons. I personally don’t like guns and would prefer to pray the Psalms and seek the protection of the Precious Blood of Jesus and the Holy Angels over my home. I want to take the Holy Oil and Holy Water and go around my entire neighborhood to bless it and place miraculous medals of Mary around it.

St Francis exhorted his followers not to hate the rich. I see tremendous good the Catholic wealthy do for our universities, churches, and social welfare. In ancient Christianity, only the rich were to help those in need, and then, they freely give only what they wanted to give.

I say this with some trepidation, but the solution to the world’s problems is Holy Poverty and living out the Gospel.
 
The Constitution was based on the ideals of Liberalism (classical). Now those ideas are coming to fruitition.
Not exactly. Our country’s keynesian economics are impeding classical Liberalism’s triumph in America. Who would’ve thought that keynesian economics would be useful for once? :p:p
 
Of course, you’ll be turning off your computer now. Right?

With your peculiar logic, the 1st amendment only protects your use of vocalised speech and printing pamphlets on on 200 year old equipment.
So are you drawing a parallel between the human species developing more sophisticated ways to communicate with the development of more effective ways to kill one another, and then calling my logic peculiar?
 
The fact still remains the church raised armies and fought wars. So do you believe they were not listening to the Holy Spirit then? I’m not complaining about nations protecting themselves form evil. Gary’s complaint implied conservatives were for wholesale war.

It is a fact of history the church the condoned the death of those were heretics and supported capital punishment.

The church owns bank and is reported to have a Billion in gold. Maybe a Billion is not what it used to be. The fact still remains the church has control over immense wealth.

The Pope mobile is a bullet proof vehicle and his body guards have machine guns.

I’m not complaining about any of it. Just pointing out the hipocracy of liberal ideals. They want to deny you of what they have.
I am a liberal and I don’t own a weapon o any sort.
 
I’ve always understood that the Catholic Church worked for peace, not just ‘speaking out against war.’

I’m also left curious on how your personal views square with the Catholic Church’s view of subsidiarity and abortion.
My views are simply practical and probably a bit nuanced for you. I’m a relativist, and don’t think that one template fits all situations.
 
Then why does your profile say that you’re a Catholic?
I call myself a Catholic because I am a Catholic. Relativity is s scientific fact. The nature of human experience is subjective. We create reality as we experience it. The reality we perceive is dependent on that which has the experience. This has been known for over eighty years in physics. A particle doesn’t become a particle until it’s observed by something. Until then it remains a wave potential (Wheeler, Delayed Choice Experiment, 1978). The world around you is as dependent on you for it’s existence as you are dependent on it.

Furthermore, logic is situational. Anyone who fails to accept that is left with a good many dichotomies to come to terms with. If I take a black and white view of the commandment not to kill, and then join the armed forces to go fight in a war, then I am indeed introducing some nuance, subjectivity and situational flexibility into my perspective, am I not? Yet people live with these obvious contradictions to an absolutist view, and strangely they don’t accept the idea that anything is relative. I find that very curious.

So as off base as I may seem to you, your question in turn seem rather curious to me. Yes, I can think and still call myself a Catholic. Of course I can. It may not fit your view of what you think a Catholic should be, but I on the other hand think that the church can accommodate membership from the ranks of modern humans who understand that absolutism is not a tenable view. In fact, I think you will find that more and more of us think like me these days, but even if I were alone, my ability to reason would cause me to maintain my view unless someone could present a good argument otherwise. Many have tried and all have failed. I am open to possibilities though, so if you want to discuss it, we certainly can. I just think you’ll get frustrated, but it’s up to you.
 
So are you drawing a parallel between the human species developing more sophisticated ways to communicate with the development of more effective ways to kill one another, and then calling my logic peculiar?
No, but it looks like you are.

The 2nd amendment is simply to let the people have the ultimate power of their own governance.
 
My views are simply practical and probably a bit nuanced for you. I’m a relativist, and don’t think that one template fits all situations.
Then I pray that I can learn from your example, and bind myself closer to the teaching of the Church.

For my Catholic friends who daily struggle to follow the Catholic Church’s good teachings, you have my praise and admiration.
 
Liberals don’t think there’s a war on anything. They’re just tired of hearing about this **** happening on your watch, and the enormousness and widespread mode of operation of the crimes begs the question: what are the guidelines that these institutions must adhere to, and why do they end up with the same protocols if they are not being instructed or allowed to by the church? Surely it’s not a religion, to question authority in the face of overwhelming evidence? Every action requires an equal and opposing reaction.

The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took “courage” for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions.
In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they’d rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn’t forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."

The report found that molestation and rape were “endemic” in boys’ facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

Over the past decade Ireland has published five investigations into the church’s** serial cover-up of crimes by pedophile priests in the Dublin Archdiocese and two rural Catholic dioceses; the sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of tens of thousands of children consigned to state-funded industrial schools since the 1930s; and now, as a final piece of that puzzle, the Magdalene laundries.

In response to the furor aroused by the media reports, the Irish government commissioned a study which took nine years to complete. On May 20, 2009, the commission released its 2600-page report, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. The commission found that Catholic priests and nuns had terrorized thousands of boys and girls for decades and that government inspectors had failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation. The report characterized rape and molestation as “endemic” in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages**. In February 2002, 18 religious institutes agreed to provide more than €128 million in compensation to the victims of child abuse.** Most of the money was raised from church property transfers to the State.

Chapter Overview:

Witnesses reported being physically, sexually and emotionally abused, and neglected by religious and lay adults who had responsibility for their care, and by others in the absence of adequate care and supervision. Many of the 216 named settings were the subject of repeated reports of abuse. In excess of 800 individuals were identified as physically and/or sexually abusing the witnesses as children in those settings. Neglect and emotional abuse were often described as endemic within institutions where there was a systemic failure to provide for children’s safety and welfare.

The Conclusions on sexual abuse which are outlined at Paragraph 7.549 were that sexual abuse of boys in Artane by Brothers was a chronic problem. Complaints were not handled properly and the steps taken by the Congregation to avoid scandal and publicity protected perpetrators of abuse. The safety of children was not a priority at any time during the relevant period.**

Dear Missluckie: Admittedly, a good many bad deeds have been committed by members of my Church, and sometimes by people in our leadership roles. And a lot of equally bad things have been done by atheists. Such things don’t speak to the core beliefs and higher aspirations of either group. None of us are good every minute of our lives and no one is bad every minute of their lives. We are just people, and like the source from which we came, we are growing and learning as we go. The question should be, what can people do to make things better without regard to what we might believe? I belong to a faith that has a set of dogmas, and you belong to a faith with dogmas as well. Atheism is full of materialist dogma and has it’s own high priests, such as Richard Dawkins. But surely, the capacity for love and the desire to thrive is the same in both of us. So, the question insofar as I can reason is what do we do about that collectively? How can we love and thrive and grow together without regard to the contexts we are wrapping around reality with our theologies?

If you are looking for someone to admit that some in our Church have done some very wrong things, then I will admit that. So now perhaps we should ask where we go from here. What do we do about the “now” that we are living in, and the future we’d like to help materialize? None of us has to believe in anything to love each other and to look for ways to make our lives fuller. I bet the only thing either of us wants is to find some happiness, and respecting one another’s core values is a good place for us to start. It doesn’t matter if I follow Jesus or someone else follows Krishna or the Buddha, or if you follow your own heart with no belief in God whatsoever. We can still use our lives to fulfill what we sought, which are the same basic things - love, security, creativity and a sense of mutual well-being.
 
However, if you call yourself a moral relativist, the Church condemns relativism. It is the tyranny of today.

God alone is absolute, non-changing truth. We are not absolute nor are we ever perfectly moral or good or can ever make up for any sin against God.

So that is why He gave us His Son to be the one moralizing force that we can draw on through the reception of the sacraments, to forgive our sins and connect us to the Absolute Good.

Science is an instrument of discovery showing us how creation is constantly changing and evolving.

But not God, or the 10 commandments, or Jesus Christ savior and redeemer to us. God is the Unmoved Mover.

Veritatis Splendor…the Splendor of Truth was the title of an encyclical written by John Paul about 20 years ago. God does not need us, but He does need us to extend His mercy to our neighbor.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top