Shouldn't liberalism/ progressivism/ modernism/ relativism/ emotionalism be considered a religion?

[Gary_Sheldrake]

You cited the observer effect on photons - it has a specific meaning in the realm of physics. The observer doesn’t have to be conscious - the act of measuring determines the outcome, as measuring is an interaction.

You may be way ahead of me on this, but let me ask anyway. If the world was full of nothing but conscious-less matter, who or what is making a measurement? Of course you know that further experiments show that observation in itself creates an outcome way back to the start - before the observation was even made.

There need not be any intellect behind the measuring - you can prove this by video taping the experiment and asking many people to view the resulting video. All people will agree to the outcome, not at 50/50 split.

If I am reading you right, it would be because an observer has already collapsed the potential into a reality. Once it’s done, it’s done.

Perhaps you’re thinking about some of the more fascinating objective collapse theories. Sadly quantum mechanics theories don’t seem to fit them. Of course, there’s still a lot of wiggle room under quantum mechanics for what you’re proposing, and certainly, there’s the many-worlds( universe branch theory) to amuse ourselves with.

Alas, God never seems to never give me definite proof of his existence despite the march of physics. He has such a good sense of humor, I expect he’ll still be playing this game with me after my death.

God plays games with people like you and me because we love it. You know we do, c’mon

 

[jericho777]

I have an idea that I think you might like. I like it because it gives me what I want while giving you what you want. Win/win. It’s called a virtual citizenship. Under my plan, each person would declare themselves either a Conservative or a Liberal. For liberals like me, the government issues a “Liberal Card” which means I pay taxes. People like you get a “Conservative Card” and you don’t pay taxes. None whatsoever. No state, no federal, no local or anything. Under my plan, people like yourself wouldn’t even have to pay social security tax either. In such a world, Liberals like me can drive on the roads we built with our tax money for free, have our trash picked up for free, we can call the fire department when we need them, and our children can attend public schools for free because of our tax contributions. Conservatives like you would pay by the drink. Telemetry from your odometer would tell how much to charge you for how many miles you drove on my roads each month and send you a bill you for trash pickup. As a member of the Liberal plan, my kids can attend public universities at in-state rates, and you would pay out of state rates wherever you go, which is no problem because you would be so much better off on your own than liberals like me who pay taxes. Under this plan, whenever conservatives want start another war somewhere, you can get out your assault rifles that are guaranteed under the Constitution, put on your coonskin hats and go settle the score yourselves, because the military would belong to the tax paying liberals. And you can learn yer younginn’s at home unless you want to pay $1,200 dollars a month to attend the public schools that my tax money built. Or you can pay to send them to a private school, but without a tax voucher because you wouldn’t be paying taxes. You can pay a private fire department when your house catches on fire (God forbid that should happen). If a liberal loses their job, we would get unemployment and food stamps. Conservatives like yourself could appeal to those charities that you give 10% to each year, and maybe they’ll drop off a bag of groceries at your makeshift home on the corner of 134th and Lenox. Or maybe they’ll let you sleep in a church basement. And when you do find a job, you are free to work for less than minimum wages at whatever terms you can work out on your own, because the Federal Labor Laws wouldn’t apply to you. You are free do do as you like, unfettered by us bleeding heart liberals. When I retire I will get Medicare and Social Security, and conservatives like yourself will simply live off of your hard earned money that you kept for yourself all your life, and you would buy your aging and sick self health insurance in an open, unregulated market. And that’s the part I like best. I like the old or sick conservative trying to buy health insurance on an unregulated market best, because it leads to the next part: In twenty years, everyone would have a liberal card, and no one would be left carrying a conservative card. Why? It’s how evolution always works.

Anyway, it’s a world where weak liberals like me can band together and live in a collective society, and real men like you can work things out for themselves. How’s that for a plan?

Gary you have ducked my questions twice now and cast aspersions on me judging me on my charitable giving. Do you even pay income taxes? If so what percentage of your income (pretax) do you give to charity?

Now you are belittling Southerners and myself with your derogatory use of the term “yer younginns”. As if we were ignorant and uneducated. We deserve an apology from you.

Your failure to answer my questions speaks volumes against your political positions. Please consider our conversation over until you directly answer my questions.

I have reposted them for you.

What justifies you, to feel you are entitled to take someone else’s money?

Does your church who advocates taking money from those who earn it, pay any kind of income or property taxes themselves? If not, why not?

What makes you think the government is the best avenue to handle social issues that were handled by the church historically?

Thank you.

 

[Tsuwano]

The fact still remains the church raised armies and fought wars. So do you believe they were not listening to the Holy Spirit then? I’m not complaining about nations protecting themselves form evil. Gary’s complaint implied conservatives were for wholesale war.

It is a fact of history the church the condoned the death of those were heretics and supported capital punishment.

The church owns bank and is reported to have a Billion in gold. Maybe a Billion is not what it used to be. The fact still remains the church has control over immense wealth.

The Pope mobile is a bullet proof vehicle and his body guards have machine guns.

I’m not complaining about any of it. Just pointing out the hipocracy of liberal ideals. They want to deny you of what they have.

I’m glad you’re not offering complaints about the points you mentioned above, but neither are your explanations completely satisfying. For example, simply because the Church may have supported capital punishment in the past and felt that burning heretics was the best possible course of action at the time, doesn’t mean the Church’s views of heretics and capital punishment can’t change and evolve. It should not be considered hypocrisy to allow one’s thinking to change about such things. Neither should it be viewed through the liberal - conservative ideological lens so many of us are fond of.
I would also urge you to examine more closely what the Vatican Bank is actually used for and who actually has control over the money in that bank. It is impossible to say that The Church has control over that money because The Church is so ill defined. Yes, various groups within the Church own the money in that bank, but it would be difficult to say exactly how The Church has control over it. Besides, that bank may not be around for much longer and that may be a good thing.
I grant you that the Pope seems to be well guarded, as are most heads of state, but it should be noted that he, himself, does not carry a weapon. It is not hypocritical to support logical gun control laws and an armed guard of state leaders at the same time.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I believe that things were different back when a lot of Catholics were blue collar workers and had modest incomes.

Now many have climbed the social ladder to the middle class, and not a few have abandoned the social justice the church teaches.

It is easy to be conservative when one has more to conserve.

Again and again we hear of the encyclical (sp) condemning socialism and communism, but how often is it brought out that the same encycyclical condemns laissez-faire just as strongly?

I am blue collar and am now disabled, and the only things I agree with Republicans on are pro choice and being opposed to ss "marriage.

And embryonic stem cell research and cloning, euthanasia and assisted suicide, restrictions on Christian religious freedom, and various other prolife issues (I’m assuming).

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary you have ducked my questions twice now and cast aspersions on me judging me on my charitable giving. Do you even pay income taxes? If so what percentage of your income (pretax) do you give to charity?

Dear Jericho: I pay lots of taxes, but I also make a lot of money. I am glad to pay them, because I get lots in return:

-Excellent roads and bridges

-Sewage services

-Protection by the National Guard, armed forces, fire and rescue

-Public schools

-Public Universities

-Disaster relief (FEMA)

…the list goes on. These things are paid for by my taxes. I’m also glad that the elderly get Medicare and poor people get Medicaid. I am happy to live in a society that has these things and I am glad to pay for them.

As for charitable contributions, there’s where you and I have cultural differences. I don’t think such things as how much we give to charity are a proper discourse in polite society.

Now you are belittling Southerners and myself with your derogatory use of the term “yer younginns”. As if we were ignorant and uneducated. We deserve an apology from you.

Ignorant and uneducated people have flooded the Congress with tea party representatives who don’t understand the Constitution because they lack the proper education to understand the 18th century nuances of it’s framers. This takes years of study at an accredited institution, and these hucksters pride themselves on being “Washington Outsiders” which is a proud proclamation that they don’t know how Washington works and have thereby brought things to a grinding halt. When I look for a doctor, I don’t look for a “medical profession outsider” and when I fly on a plane I don’t ask to make sure the pilot is an “airline industry outsider.” I like trained professionals in public office - people with the right acumen. And unlike other liberals, I don’t play polite on such things. No apology from me.

What justifies you, to feel you are entitled to take someone else’s money?

Whose money have I taken? Did Gary Sheldrake take money from Jericho the Rooster?

Does your church who advocates taking money from those who earn it, pay any kind of income or property taxes themselves? If not, why not?

I voluntarily give money to the Roman Catholic Church. They have never forced me or coerced me into giving them money. The Roman Catholic Church believes in an honorable society that cares for all of it’s members. The tax code that applies to my church applies to all churches. If you don’t want to pay taxes, buy a shack, nail two boards together to make a cross, get a minister’s license for $35, get some snakes In a sack and a choir and start a danged church.

What makes you think the government is the best avenue to handle social issues that were handled by the church historically?

Those days are gone - Churches have no experience in handling hurricane disaster relief, emergency response to foreign and domestic threats, building highways, sending people into space, running a Navy and an Air Force, operating fire and rescue squads, running a Department of State, a Department of Agriculture, agencies like the CIA, and have no credentials in dealing with international diplomacy. AND, whose church would get that honor anyway? There are a whole lot of churches out there. Get over it - this is the 21st century. By the way, earlier on this thread you absolutely railed at the way the Catholic Church ran things before governments did, and now you say you want churches running things again. You are acting like a windsock at the airport.

 

[JHow]

Gary, ol’ buddy, there’s something missing in your logic and examples. Let’s review…

Churches have no experience…

…in handling hurricane disaster relief

Like Katrina, or Super-Storm Sandy?

…emergency response to foreign and domestic threats

Like the embassy in Libya?

…building highways

When trains are better than moving freight than trucks?

…sending people into space

Isn’t being done much any more.

…running a Navy and an Air Force

Churchill said the Navy had two traditions…look them up.

…operating fire and rescue squads

WIth pension funds that have killed whole city finances (Stockton)

…running a Department of State

Like in Libya (again)? Or maybe the ambassador to Korea who went on vacation this week?

… Department of Agriculture

Who else would make us put corn in our tanks instead of the table?

…agencies like the CIA

Who warned us of 9/11?

…and have no credentials in dealing with international diplomacy

Because we sub this out to the biggest campaign donors.

…AND, whose church would get that honor anyway?

I don’t know, don’t liberals think Barak is messiah?

I noticed Amtrak and the post-office didn’t make your list, however. Odd.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary, ol’ buddy, there’s something missing in your logic and examples. Let’s review…

Like Katrina, or Super-Storm Sandy?

Like the embassy in Libya?

When trains are better than moving freight than trucks?

Isn’t being done much any more.

Churchill said the Navy had two traditions…look them up.

WIth pension funds that have killed whole city finances (Stockton)

Like in Libya (again)? Or maybe the ambassador to Korea who went on vacation this week?

Who else would make us put corn in our tanks instead of the table?

Who warned us of 9/11?

Because we sub this out to the biggest campaign donors.

I don’t know, don’t liberals think Barak is messiah?

I noticed Amtrak and the post-office didn’t make your list, however. Odd.

Oh my - you mean some things have gone wrong in this world? And here I thought everything was perfect.

I love fundamentalist logic.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary, ol’ buddy, there’s something missing in your logic and examples. Let’s review…

Like Katrina, or Super-Storm Sandy?

Like the embassy in Libya?

When trains are better than moving freight than trucks?

Isn’t being done much any more.

Churchill said the Navy had two traditions…look them up.

WIth pension funds that have killed whole city finances (Stockton)

Like in Libya (again)? Or maybe the ambassador to Korea who went on vacation this week?

Who else would make us put corn in our tanks instead of the table?

Who warned us of 9/11?

Because we sub this out to the biggest campaign donors.

I don’t know, don’t liberals think Barak is messiah?

I noticed Amtrak and the post-office didn’t make your list, however. Odd.

There are problems with all human affairs, and no government or private endeavor is free of issues. The point is to offer viable alternatives or to explore ways to make improvements. Saying that you simply hand social programs over to churches is a very questionable idea. Things like the attacks you mentioned and the natural disasters have always happened and we can’t control such things. And the responses can always be better. You mentioned Katrina. The response was terrible. So, we learned from that, and the response to Sandy was much better. We learn as we go and do the best we can. But centralized approaches are logically more effective. I would not like to be at the mercy of a thousand different church organizations to come and help restore my community after a natural disaster. It would be a logistical disaster in itself. And I wouldn’t want them running other social programs, because churches let their theological ideas figure into their approaches, rather than simply sticking to practical matters.

If you could propose a plan wherein churches ran social programs rather than government and could do it at the same cost or less, I would be glad to hear it. All the while, I’ll bet there is someone in your family who has or is collecting social security or on Medicare and that perhaps someday you yourself might collect on these programs. Would you like the church to run those? And whose church?