Shouldn't we kneel during the consecration?

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I was watching an old episide of Mother Angelica on EWTN tonight and she had a call from a Roman Catholic who had a question about whether or not he should have knelt during the consecration.

She said she knows that people stand in the Byzantine Rite, but that it shouldn’t be a question of rubrics. That if we believe that Our Lord is truly present before us, body and blood, soul and divinity, that we should kneel before him.

She makes an awfully good point and I’m thinking I should start kneeling at tomorrow’s Divine Liturgy. What do you think?
 
Different ethnic and social groups have different ways of showing respect. None is more right or wrong than another - - - but the “proper” form is always the “accepted local form.”

In some cultures it is “inappropriate to wear a hat or head covering” in the presence of a woman or of God. In some other culture it would be grossly inappropriate not to cover one’s head.

Kneeling was the Roman Empire’s method of showing respect to the king (emperor). In the East only subservient peoples were forced to their knees. Respect was always shown by standing. Think of how even today, we Westerners are supposed to stand when a woman or higher status man walks into a room.

The answer to your question is . . . when in Rome, do as the Romans. When in the Byzantine world, do as the Byzantines.
 
I think Mother Angelic should mind her own business. It is a question of rubrics, handed down to us from the fathers of our respective Churhces. If everyone started doing what they felt like doing Liturgy would be chaos. She would certainly not appreciate Byzantines telling Latins to start standing during the Consecration. I don’t appreciate Latins telling us our ancient traditions aren’t as good or respectful as theirs. Both Traditions have valid reason for doing what they do. Both positions are signs of respect in their respective traditions. The Eastern tradition is to stand.

As a deacon right before the Anaphora I proclaim:
“Let us stand aright, let us stand in awe, let us be attentive, to offer the holy oblation in peace.”

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Cathy17 said:
I was watching an old episide of Mother Angelica on EWTN tonight and she had a call from a Roman Catholic who had a question about whether or not he should have knelt during the consecration.

She said she knows that people stand in the Byzantine Rite, but that it shouldn’t be a question of rubrics. That if we believe that Our Lord is truly present before us, body and blood, soul and divinity, that we should kneel before him.

She makes an awfully good point and I’m thinking I should start kneeling at tomorrow’s Divine Liturgy. What do you think?
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Cathy. I would say that you should follow the Byzantine norms and not the Latin ones especially since you are in their church. After all, in the East, we believe that from the very start of the Liturgy we are in the Kingdom of Heaven and we stand out of respect for Christ’s resurrection because He is risen.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Mother Angelica has apparently not read the prescriptions of the Council of Nicea.
 
Cathy17
I asked some questions about prostrations on another forum some time ago. I only got one response but the article was helpful to me, even tho it didn’t exactly answer what I asked.

“The twentieth canon of the First Ecumenical Council specifically forbids kneeling, and thus prostrations, on every Sunday (it being the feast of the Resurrection) and on the days of Pentecost, the fifty days between Pascha and Pentecost-Trinity Sunday…Great Feasts are also joyous occasions and thus it it customary not to make prostrations or to kneel down at their celebration…If you are in some doubt as to what to do, a good idea is to follow the lead of the celebrant or the senior person present; in doing this you will at least be showing them respect and will be humbling yourself.”

The final sentence is what I follow, Lord willing there is a “senior person present” and visible, who is actually Byzantine and not another RC with limited Eastern catechesis like myself… a problem I’ve come up against.

My question was 7 months ago and since then I’ve observed in a couple of communities several, but far from all, of the faithful prostrate during the Our Father. Those were not Sundays but rather a feast day or a vigil for the feast day and Orthodox, not BCC.

I generally love Mother Angelica but if she said that hopefully Father Pacwa or one of the other bi-ritual priests there at EWTN gave her a bit of follow-up on that.
 
I am fairly new to the Eastern Tradition. In the Romanian Catholic Byzantine Parish I attend we kneel. Is this a leftover Latinization? (I sincerely ask) :o
 
Cathy17 said:
She said she knows that people stand in the Byzantine Rite, but that it shouldn’t be a question of rubrics. That if we believe that Our Lord is truly present before us, body and blood, soul and divinity, that we should kneel before him.
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She has a lot of nerve.
 
Not that they should, but in my Antiochian parish there are two families who kneel during the consecration. I think it might be a Greek thing, although one family from Lebanon does it. I know our priest is against it but he hasn’t told them to stop or anything. Once though, during the liturgy right after Pascha, he did make it a point to rather loudly exclaim from the altar without turning to face us, “There is to be no kneeling during the Paschal season. I repeat: there is to be no kneeling during the paschal season!” The regular kneelers stood up almost bewildered but were obedient. I really dont think anyone even noticed besides myself; not a big deal. I do think it was a good way to handle it, it just appeared to be an announcement directed at no one in particular but had the desired effect. 😛 baby steps sometimes! The correct practice is not to kneel or prostrate on Sundays… period.
 
As a Latin Rite Catholic I think that on average, Byzantine Rite Catholics must be far better catechized than the average Latin Rite Catholic.

I cannot imagine Byzantine Rite Catholics demanding to kneel at the Mass. No way. Yet tomorrow I’l see Latin Righters who demand to kneel at the Divine Liturgy.

Sorta sad in all reality.
 
jam070406 said:
I am fairly new to the Eastern Tradition. In the Romanian Catholic Byzantine Parish I attend we kneel. Is this a leftover Latinization? (I sincerely ask) :o
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During the week kneeling IS acceptable for the most part. Some tend to forget that.
 
Hesychios said:
She has a lot of nerve.
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LOL! Truer words were never spoken! But not with the meaning you have here. 🙂 Mother Angelica, now in her mid 80s, is no longer teaching since she had a couple of strokes a number of years ago, so any programs heard now are old programs, not that that excuses any comment she may have made regarding kneeling in Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

Mother Angelica had a lot of nerve during many steps on her path not the least was, after founding a religious order, deciding to convert a garage behind the monastery into a television studio, then buying satellite space to launch her own Catholic Cable channel when most people thought that was a really dumb idea, especially since she didn’t have enough money to pay for it and figured the, LOL, Holy Spirit would provide! That a Sister could persist when so many forces were against her took a lot of nerve, and a great depth of faith. EWTN has its limitations, and I’ve complained of them elsewhere, but her vision in founding a Catholic TV channel, and then radio and shortwave media outlets was, well, visionary, and the incredible resource EWTN has been and is I’m sure would never have happened without that lot of nerve.

So, I just had to laugh at your comment, because it really couldn’t be truer, in spite of you having meant it in a totally different way. 🙂

Her misstep has afforded us a chance to talk about a useful topic. I think as a perennial teacher that would tickle her, and she had a great chuckle when she got to laughing.
 
Deacon Lance,

Mother Angelica was not being disrespectful when she was answering a question about posture during the Consecration.:nope:

She was emphatic in saying that in the “Latin” Rite we kneel during the Consecration but she also noted that the Orthodox Rites do stand. She never said this was wrong and if the OP heard that, they heard wrong. :sad_yes:

Mother Angelica is deeply respectful of all Rites in the Catholic Church and is very Traditional and Orthodox in her beliefs.

And just to claify, the program in question was originally broadcast in 1996. Mother Angelica has not been live on television for a number of years because of ill health.

:highprayer:
 
Cathy17 said:
I was watching an old episide of Mother Angelica on EWTN tonight and she had a call from a Roman Catholic who had a question about whether or not he should have knelt during the consecration.

She said she knows that people stand in the Byzantine Rite, but that it shouldn’t be a question of rubrics. That if we believe that Our Lord is truly present before us, body and blood, soul and divinity, that we should kneel before him.

She makes an awfully good point and I’m thinking I should start kneeling at tomorrow’s Divine Liturgy. What do you think?
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Why? What makes kneeling better? It is the ancient tradition to not kneel on sunday. I think it is the council of Laoudicea in the 360’s that even banned kneeling on Sundays.
 
In the Great Russian tradition, there are prostrations after each clause of the Words of Insitution and after the Epiclesis, as well as other times–but this is on weekdays outside of Pentecostarion (Pascha to All Saints) and Great Feasts.

And, of course, the Presanctified Liturgy is full of prostrations, as are the other weekday Lenten services.

But, as the song says, never on Sunday.

One thing about Mother Angelica–an old Italian lady armed with wooden spoons remains an old Italian lady armed with wooden spoons, even if wearing a wimple and veil. Without her chutzpah (for lack of a better word) she wouldn’t have been able to accomplish what she did.

She did make an error if she intended to say what Eastern Christians should do at the Divine Liturgy. But all things considered, a mild one.
 
Thank you for all the helpful comments.

Regarding Mother Angelica, maybe I didn’t word my question correctly. I didn’t take her comment about the Byzantine Rite standing during the consecration as negative. She just mentioned it before she explained why kneeling is proper in the Roman Rite. She’s a spunky old nun who was never afraid to speak her mind when defending the Faith. Please forgive me if I gave the wrong impression.
 
Hesychios said:
She has a lot of nerve.
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so, she does. i wonder what you would do if you saw Jesus face to face, i mean literally? would you fall in your face to the ground? or you just stand there as if you were equal to him? how do you think Jesus stood when going out to pray to His Father? did He kneel, or He just stood there? any way is all how we see God and believe what kind of awe He deserves. to mother Angelic, the King deserves the best.

:highprayer::byzsoc:
 
Hesychios said:
She has a lot of nerve.
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And it ha served her well. Her clarity on rubric issues, however, isn’t a strong point.
OhMalley said:
As a Latin Rite Catholic I think that on average, Byzantine Rite Catholics must be far better catechized than the average Latin Rite Catholic.

I cannot imagine Byzantine Rite Catholics demanding to kneel at the Mass. No way. Yet tomorrow I’l see Latin Righters who demand to kneel at the Divine Liturgy.

Sorta sad in all reality.
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I’ve seen a few
OhMalley said:
During the week kneeling IS acceptable for the most part. Some tend to forget that.
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But kneeling remains optional, and isn’t in the current pewbooks even for the weekday in the Ruthenian use. Others vary, as well.
wisdomseeker said:
so, she does. i wonder what you would do if you saw Jesus face to face, i mean literally?
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Stand there in shock, and probably wet myself, at least until a breeze and I fell over.

As the liturgical prayers state, we shall stand before the fearsome judgement seat of Christ.
 
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