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DARRYLW
Guest
Whoooooaaaaaaa Deacon;
You hit it right on the head, “Do as the Romans do” .
I go to both the Latin and the Biz. and I love them both. But I do as they do when in their church. An as a Traditional Catholic I like them better than the Novis Ordo party Mass.
DARRYLW
You hit it right on the head, “Do as the Romans do” .
I go to both the Latin and the Biz. and I love them both. But I do as they do when in their church. An as a Traditional Catholic I like them better than the Novis Ordo party Mass.
DARRYLW
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GodIsGracious
Guest
Same here. I’m Latin Rite myself, grew up Latin Rite. I’m now dating a Byzantine Catholic. We “trade off” between Divine Liturgy and Mass. I love them both, and I’ve said the same thing before as well. “When in Rome… etc. etc. etc.”Whoooooaaaaaaa Deacon;
You hit it right on the head, “Do as the Romans do” .
I go to both the Latin and the Biz. and I love them both. But I do as they do when in their church. An as a Traditional Catholic I like them better than the Novis Ordo party Mass.
DARRYLW
I did kneel down after receiving communion at Divine Liturgy twice. It’s because it felt so weird NOT to kneel down. I can barely stand whenever I DO receive communion that at Mass I’m grateful to be kneeling. LOL However, I won’t do that again. We must respect the rites we’re in.
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diaconate
Guest
Saint Basil the Great speaks about kneeling in his treatise on the Holy Spirit chapter 27, paragraph 66. “We all stand for prayer on Sunday, but not everyone knows why. We stand for prayer on the day of the Ressurection to remind ourselves of the graces we have been given: not only because we have been raised with Christ and are obliged to seek the things that are above, but also because Sunday seems to be an image of the age to come.” and again in the same paragraph “It is necessary for the Church to teach her newborn children to stand for prayer on this day, so that they will always be reminded of eternal life, and not neglect preparations for their journey. The entire season of Pentecost is lilewise a reminder of the resurrection we expect in the age to come.”
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et1jake
Guest
As a Latin Rite Catholic, I most certainly agree the comments on when in Rome…
I hope my Eastern bretheren aren’t having to face the same ignorant trends as we do in
the Roman Rite World.
You should not mix and match rites. I get so fed up when clergy and congregation screw
this up. One good example is bowing instead of genuflecting in front of the tabernacle (assuming one can still find it in your church). When in discussions about the Mass and Liturgical practices so many of my peers and elders are shocked when I mention that it is not proper to bow at the tabernacle or to the Eucharist when on exposition (I’ve had this conversation so many time I can site the GIRM reference by heart). Then some modernistic half-informed individual will cite that bowing has been a sign of adoration in the Church from the earliest days and that Eastern Rite Churches have always done that.
They usually don’t like it when I tell them that to the best of my knowledge that our eastern brothers and sisters make a PROFOUND and SWEEPING bow (I hope I have this terminology and posturing correct) low enough that their hand will graze the floor not just a head knod and scoot on as fast a one can go.
In my religious ed classes I usually tell my students to stick with the rite they know in our Churches; and if attending a different rite get someone who’ll guide you through. But in both cases keep the “right rite in the right Church”. What could be a sign of adoration in one culture could be seen as an act of disrespect or blasphemy in another.
I hope my Eastern bretheren aren’t having to face the same ignorant trends as we do in
the Roman Rite World.
You should not mix and match rites. I get so fed up when clergy and congregation screw
this up. One good example is bowing instead of genuflecting in front of the tabernacle (assuming one can still find it in your church). When in discussions about the Mass and Liturgical practices so many of my peers and elders are shocked when I mention that it is not proper to bow at the tabernacle or to the Eucharist when on exposition (I’ve had this conversation so many time I can site the GIRM reference by heart). Then some modernistic half-informed individual will cite that bowing has been a sign of adoration in the Church from the earliest days and that Eastern Rite Churches have always done that.
They usually don’t like it when I tell them that to the best of my knowledge that our eastern brothers and sisters make a PROFOUND and SWEEPING bow (I hope I have this terminology and posturing correct) low enough that their hand will graze the floor not just a head knod and scoot on as fast a one can go.
In my religious ed classes I usually tell my students to stick with the rite they know in our Churches; and if attending a different rite get someone who’ll guide you through. But in both cases keep the “right rite in the right Church”. What could be a sign of adoration in one culture could be seen as an act of disrespect or blasphemy in another.
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jmcrae
Guest
In the Latin Rite, we kneel, but in the Byzantine Rite, they stand. Follow the norms of the Church that you are in; don’t try to “mix and match.” It just leads to confusion.
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pm1853
Guest
Weird… my only experience in an Orthodox Church was at a Romanian Orthodox church, and they knelt too.I am fairly new to the Eastern Tradition. In the Romanian Catholic Byzantine Parish I attend we kneel. Is this a leftover Latinization? (I sincerely ask)
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Steven_John
Guest
Where i live everybody prays we thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence, when present almost everybody kneels
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Luvs2Learn
Guest
no kneeling? huh? I attended a few Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgys through out the years ( I have many Orthodox friends). We kneeled. The pews even had kneelers just like the Roman churches do.
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OhMalley
Guest
Just what is a “Traditional Catholic?” That almost sounds like another rite/tradition within the Church.Whoooooaaaaaaa Deacon;
You hit it right on the head, “Do as the Romans do” .
I go to both the Latin and the Biz. and I love them both. But I do as they do when in their church. An as a Traditional Catholic I like them better than the Novis Ordo party Mass.
DARRYLW
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OhMalley
Guest
Those modernist Greeks have pipe organs too!no kneeling? huh? I attended a few Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgys through out the years ( I have many Orthodox friends). We kneeled. The pews even had kneelers just like the Roman churches do.
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Luvs2Learn
Guest
*OhMalley Re: shouldn’t we kneel during the consecration?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvs2Learn
no kneeling? huh? I attended a few Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgys through out the years ( I have many Orthodox friends). We kneeled. The pews even had kneelers just like the Roman churches do.
response:
Those modernist Greeks have pipe organs too! *
yes, they had an organ and a beautiful choir. Another Roman Catholic friend who attended said it reminded her of the Spanish Mass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvs2Learn
no kneeling? huh? I attended a few Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgys through out the years ( I have many Orthodox friends). We kneeled. The pews even had kneelers just like the Roman churches do.
response:
Those modernist Greeks have pipe organs too! *
yes, they had an organ and a beautiful choir. Another Roman Catholic friend who attended said it reminded her of the Spanish Mass
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trophybearer
Guest
That’s the Greeks for ya!Those modernist Greeks have pipe organs too!
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
If kneeling is party of the Liturgy, then yes. In the Maronite liturgy, many people kneel which is not part of the rubrics (this is akin to people holding hands during the Lords prayer in the Latin Rite - which is wrong).
A deep bow if not kneeling is there should be fine.
A deep bow if not kneeling is there should be fine.
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otjm
Guest
I think Mother Angelica was a very good woman, had a very greatd charism for getting things accomplished and getting people to do something; started a wonderful network, and somewhere along the way because she became so well liked, became bigger than life and on an occasion appeared to become a bit full of herself. She had opinions - everyone does. However, her opinions some times were not as well based on facts and were not based on what was the correct understanding of Church discipline.
As to her comments about what should be done in the Eastern rites as to rubrics, if she actually said that, she was a bit like a dear old great grandmother who never finished high school, but had a really strong opinion that a Catholic college would be a disaster to any woman who went to one as they were guaranteed to lose their faith. In short, great grandma has no clue what she is talking about.
If one is in an Eastern rite, one is as bound by their rubrics as a Roman Catholic is bound by the Roman rubrics. And if one is attending Mass (Divine mysteries) in an Eastern rite, then one follows their rubrics. Standing or kneeling is far more a cultural issue than it is anything intrinsic. And culturally, standing is the appropriate posture in the Byzantine rite. Kneeling there makes as much sense as one of them attending a Roman rite Mass and standing during the Consecration.
The old phrase, when in Rome, do as the Romans do still has a tremendous truth to it; and it you are not in Rome, then do as those do where you are.
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PJM
Guest
***Vatican II advises us that “kneeling” is a “Latria” [God only] sign of worship.
So if you are able through FAITH to understand that you ARE in the Presence of the very God who Created you and keeps you [and all of us] in existance; if you were somehow how able to see your God face to face, would anything short of kneeling seem approiate? I think not. I personally kneel! Amen!***
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otjm
Guest
You may want to look up the information you are referring to; it has to do with the Roman rite. It is a sign of worship, however, in the Catholic Church (as opposed to the Roman rite), it is not the only sign of worship.
Signs are culturally shaped. Kneeling is a sign, and within the Roman rite it is the sign we use (as well as we use other signs - we stand for the reading of the Gospel). Since it appears you are Roman rite, you should kneel at the appropriate times when worshiping according to the Roman rite, but if you were attending a Byzantine rite, where standing during the Consecration is the sign of worship, your kneeling would be out of place, and not according to the rubrics of the rite.
So to answer your hypothetical question, yes, in certain circumstances, something short of kneeling would be appropriate, and kneeling would be inappropriate.
It is a sign of cultural hubris to presume that the sign your culture considers most appropriate is therefore better than the sign of a different culture, simply because it is the one you are most knowledgeable about and most emotionally comfortable with.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Catechumen Andrew:
For He Reigns in Glory!
As I understand, the Orthodox Stand on Sunday, The Lord’s Day, because it is the Day of our Lord’s Resurrection, and except during Great Lent, and, and except during the Great Lent, NONE may prostrate himself for any reason on that day. However, During Great Lent and on Weekdays, PROSTRATION (Kneeling with one’s face on the floor) is allowed during the Consecration and at other times…
I know there are quite a few Orthodox Brothers in this Forum. Here are a few who may give you good fellowship: Hesychios, bpbasilphx, HagiaSophia & prodromos. They been in these forums for a while, and may be helpful to you and your walk with Christ.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
otjm:
I’m pretty sure Mother Angelica wasn’t talking about Eastern Rite Catholics, or trying to say how they should worship. I’ve never heard her talk about how Eastern Rite Catholics worship, except to say that the Divine Liturgies are beautiful, reverent & full of “godly fear” (That was on one occasions in the 5 years I’ve watched EWTN). What she has talked about on many occasions are how many Roman (Western Rite) Catholics display an utter lack of reverence and awe towards OLGS Jesus Christ present in the Blessed Sacrament and especially during the Consecration of HIS Body & Blood.
I’ve heard her talk about this before, and she’s always added the caveat that what she had to say didn’t apply to, “Eastern Rite Catholics who almost always display far more reverence for our Lord Jesus than most Roman Catholics do nowadays.” If she didn’t add the caveat this time, it’s because she added it so many times before & just got tired of having to repeat the obvious every time she repeated this.
Regarding Catholic Schools – What Mother Angelica & others have said has been backed up with Statistics - A Young Adult who attends a normal Catholic College is 3x as likely to lose his or her faith than a Young Adult who attends a Secular College. and, It was even worse when she made her comments (in the late 1980’s) than it is now…
I could tell you stories about the Campus Ministry of the Catholic university I attended in the late 1970’s that would, “Cause the hairs on your head to stand on end as a frightened porcupine.” and, That includes INVALID MASSES where the Body & Blood of Christ were NOT CONFECTED!
And, There’s always the tragic exchange I heard between a Catholic Father who sent his children to a famous Catholic university and a JEWISH Talk Show Host. Listening to a Jewish Talk Show Host commiserating with this Catholic father about how his children, who had been brought up in a faithful Catholic home, lost their faith as they attended this “Catholic” university was heartwarming and tragic.
Maybe old Great, Grandma isn’t as clueless as you thought she was.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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