Shouldn't we kneel during the consecration?

[jmcrae]

So what you’re saying is that the Council of Nicea was in error?

No; simply that it was not speaking to our culture. If in the East, kneeling is a sign of something negative, then obviously they should not kneel.

Here in the West, kneeling is a posture of prayer and worship. Standing is a posture of waiting for something to happen.

 

[5Loaves]

The answer to the OPQ is YES:thumbsup:

From the current GRIM which controls and detrrmines actions durring Mss with Rome’s Approval.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

The OP was asking in reference to the Divine Liturgy of a Byzantine Catholic Church. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal which you are quoting here doesn’t pertain to the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

 

[trophybearer]

No; simply that it was not speaking to our culture. If in the East, kneeling is a sign of something negative, then obviously they should not kneel.

Here in the West, kneeling is a posture of prayer and worship. Standing is a posture of waiting for something to happen.

It spoke for everyone… it was an ecumenical council! I couldn’t care less if you kneel, sit or stand on your head, but don’t try and say that the canon wasn’t meant to pertain to you too. Those of the East are not the ones who have changed on this.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So what you’re saying is that the Council of Nicea was in error?

jmcrae in post #60 has answered well here. The official language of the Catholic Church in the West is Latin. Yet she does not force her orthodoxy on others in matters that can change from our cultures and languages. She respects our cultures just as the Eastern cultures were usurped into their liturgies, which they have called “orthodoxy”. The Roman Catholic Church in her wisdom did not change the True presence of Jesus Christ being worshiped in the new worlds and new peoples and new languages. She did what she was commissioned to do by Jesus Christ himself. The Pope and the Magisterium have given us the G.I.R.M (general instruction of the Roman Missal) which never negates the Apostolic practice of worship and celebration. Although in her wisdom has allowed (given permission) to different cultures to teach and speak the Mass in the venacular. So it is with posture of ones culture is respected.

This has been an on going problem of misunderstandings and misinformed teachings of the Catholic Church given to new worlds and new tongues and cultures (peoples). One thing in for sure; The Church Jesus built upon Peter has never changed as some falsely claimed. Understanding the big picture, and not take an isolated pride in “orthodoxy” leaving the rest of the world seperated from these isolated individual Church communites in schism with the Chair of Peter in the Pope.

Just a side note, it is the “Bishop of Rome” who is among equals of the successors to the Apostles in the patriarchs and bishops world wide. But we only have one Peter, Jesus built his Church upon which has been his successors in the Pope. This God given divine authority between Apostles and Peter from the bible and history is what needs clarification.

Forgive me if I have gotten off track here, but upon reading the posts, I sensed an anti Pope sentiment among them. But that is my opinion.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The OP was asking in reference to the Divine Liturgy of a Byzantine Catholic Church. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal which you are quoting here doesn’t pertain to the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Thank you for that site, I loved the first introduction;

"The English translation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (Third Typical Edition) © 2002, International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this document may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage and retrieval system, without permission in writing from the copyright holder.

**This text is confirmed for use in the Dioceses of the United States of America. Persons from other nations should consult the local Episcopal Conference regarding the appropriate text for their nation." **

I love my Catholic faith, who respects all peoples in every nation and culture and does not force them to adhere to the Bishop of Romes cultures but their own, thank God for the Chair of Peter in our Pope who tends and feed the flock of Jesus.

The bold face above summarizes all my posts here;

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
Gabriel of 12;

Forgive me, if Scripture has offended you? I was showing that the Roman latin rite follows the scriptural Tradition by Kneeling as the above scripture indicates.

If your rite prefers to stand at the name of Jesus when he is present in your liturgy God bless you. What I would like to clarify here, is that posture is very important in worship.

From the Latin Rite we prefer to show our reference of worship by kneeling before Jesus Christ’s presence. If you culture displays great reference and worship in the posture of standing God bless you, I do not protest your reverence, I respect it very much because it displays your faithfullness by standing, which is by some cultural standards the highest reverence one can give to God. But according to my culture and Latin Rite which follows the Tradition of the Scripture practice is my highest posture of reference before Jesus Christ presence. I dont see any problem with standing or Kneeling as long as reference is believed and practiced from these postures. So I dont have a problem with the canon.

Peace be with you

The reply…
So what you’re saying is that the Council of Nicea was in error?

Nice try

As you ought to know POSTURE is only “a practice” and Church practices can and do change. It is neither doctrine or dogma! Thus as a practice, it can and rightfully has been changed.

If you dear Brother are NOT kneeling [a latria position of Divine Worship] before the very God that Created you… SHAME ON YOU!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[trophybearer]

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
Gabriel of 12;

Forgive me, if Scripture has offended you? I was showing that the Roman latin rite follows the scriptural Tradition by Kneeling as the above scripture indicates.

Nice try

As you ought to know POSTURE is only “a practice” and Church practices can and do change. It is neither doctrine or dogma! Thus as a practice, it can and rightfully has been changed.

If you dear Brother are NOT kneeling [a latria position of Divine Worship] before the very God that Created you… SHAME ON YOU!

You have no clue what you’re talking about. Ever hear that quote “'tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”? Well in this case you wouldn’t even have to worry about being thought a fool for your silence- no one can see you on the internet. Take advantage of that is my suggestion.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
Gabriel of 12;

Forgive me, if Scripture has offended you? I was showing that the Roman latin rite follows the scriptural Tradition by Kneeling as the above scripture indicates.

Nice try

As you ought to know POSTURE is only “a practice” and Church practices can and do change. It is neither doctrine or dogma! Thus as a practice, it can and rightfully has been changed.

If you dear Brother are NOT kneeling [a latria position of Divine Worship] before the very God that Created you… SHAME ON YOU!

Love and prayers,

Pat

Gabriel of 12;
PJM, I am not sure who your post is addressed too? My position if I was not clear, supports, and practice Kneeling at the name and presence of Jesus at every Mass. To add, I defended this Kneeling posture at my local parish, when new Liturgical members from a metropolitan area became members of my parish, and wanted to remove our kneelers and remove kneeling all together from our daily Mass. I went on record officially in our Church community Liturgical council in defense of Kneeling using scripture and St.Jerome who taught that reverence should even be made to the chalice vessels that retain the Eucharist.

In fact I removed two Confirmation students from Mass for disobeying their Catechism teacher when asked to kneel and prepare themselves for Mass in prayer and silence. I told them outside, not to ever disrespect my “Fathers” house, and to never offend my faith lest my God. I reminded them, had they done such an irreverance to a Muslim Mosque or Jewish synagogue they would of been met with a different outcome than the one given by me. The two were excused from Mass that day, and knelt thereafter with an understanding and with a smile the next times I saw them in Mass.

Peace be with you

 

[Nine_Two]

Nice try

As you ought to know POSTURE is only “a practice” and Church practices can and do change. It is neither doctrine or dogma! Thus as a practice, it can and rightfully has been changed.

If you dear Brother are NOT kneeling [a latria position of Divine Worship] before the very God that Created you… SHAME ON YOU!

Love and prayers,

Pat

Shame on me! And shame on those Fathers at Nicea who suggested we use incorrect posture before God!

The practice in my church is to stand, as it was for the Nicean fathers. I don’t much appreciate being told that the practice in my Church is shameful.

While I hold nothing against you Roman Catholics kneeling on Sundays and during Pentecost, I do object to being told how my Church should practice, especially when our practice is in keeping with the Church fathers. As you said it is not doctrine or dogma, yet for some reason you feel the need to push it on others.

 

[Formosus]

As you ought to know POSTURE is only “a practice” and Church practices can and do change. It is neither doctrine or dogma! **Thus as a practice, it can and rightfully has been changed.
**
If you dear Brother are NOT kneeling [a latria position of Divine Worship] before the very God that Created you… SHAME ON YOU!

Love and prayers,

Pat

Really? Because my church’s governing synod and Traditions tell us to stand during the Anaphora.

As for it being shameful, the only shameful act I see here is your disregard for the traditions of the Eastern churches. We are not latins and we will stand during the Anaphora all we want thank you very much.

 

[babochka]

This has been a tough one for me. I grew up in a Ruthenian parish in the 70s and we knelt during the consecration. I also attended Catholic school at a Latin parish, and we knelt during the consecration. I spent many years in Latin parishes, then returned to the Ruthenian church about 10 years ago. Much to my surprise, everyone stood during the consecration and I was quite uncomfortable with it. I learned the reasons for it, and I can accept it intellectually, but my heart still wants to kneel. That is how I was formed, both in the Latin and Ruthenian churches. I am an American who grew up in a Western culture. In spite of the fact that my spiritual heritage is Eastern, my culture (religious and otherwise) has taught me that kneeling is the way to show respect. I’m ok with standing now, but when I attend Mass, I relish the opportunity to kneel and pray.

I think one of the reasons that some Latins react so strongly to the suggestion that standing could be the proper posture is because there is a movement within the Latin church that wants to take away their heritage and mandate standing. It is usually associated with liberal “liturgists” who want to emphasize the community over God.

Elizabeth

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I was watching an old episide of Mother Angelica on EWTN tonight and she had a call from a Roman Catholic who had a question about whether or not he should have knelt during the consecration.

She said she knows that people stand in the Byzantine Rite, but that it shouldn’t be a question of rubrics. That if we believe that Our Lord is truly present before us, body and blood, soul and divinity, that we should kneel before him.

She makes an awfully good point and I’m thinking I should start kneeling at tomorrow’s Divine Liturgy. What do you think?

I think you should be faithful to the actual liturgy of the Mass you are attending. If you are at a Byzantine Rite Mass and the liturgy says to stand then you should stand. If the liturgy says to kneel, then kneel.

Don’t be a do-your-own-thing type of person like these morons who hold hands during the Our Father

 

[otjm]

This has been a tough one for me. I grew up in a Ruthenian parish in the 70s and we knelt during the consecration. I also attended Catholic school at a Latin parish, and we knelt during the consecration. I spent many years in Latin parishes, then returned to the Ruthenian church about 10 years ago. Much to my surprise, everyone stood during the consecration and I was quite uncomfortable with it.

I would suspect that you were originally taught to kneel in the Ruthinian rite because it had been “latinized”, something that only recently was turned around, with the Eatstern rites being called to go back to their own heritage. Had the US bishops, who seemingly knew more about clericalism and pride than humilty, not made the fuss they did when Eastern rite immigrants came to the US, you would not have been subjected to such changes.

 

[babochka]

I would suspect that you were originally taught to kneel in the Ruthinian rite because it had been “latinized”, something that only recently was turned around, with the Eatstern rites being called to go back to their own heritage. Had the US bishops, who seemingly knew more about clericalism and pride than humilty, not made the fuss they did when Eastern rite immigrants came to the US, you would not have been subjected to such changes.

Of course. But that doesn’t change the fact that I was formed in the way that I was, both within my church and within my culture. Western culture does view kneeling as a way to show respect, and this is reflected in literature and art from certain periods.

It is important to note that Latinizations are not only present in the U.S. Our priest is a recent immigrant from Slovakia. His young children did not receive Communion in their home country, as the practice of infant communion has not yet been restored. In his parish, kneeling was the norm for the consecration. Certain bishops in the US certainly have much to answer for, but it is not quite accurate to lay the blame for all Latinization at their feet.

Elizabeth

 

[Brendan]

Read the canons of Nicea and bugger off! It’s not a matter for you to interpret.

Yes, Canon 20 states that , on Sundays, when should stand when one offers the Lord’s Prayer. We do that.

The other prayer of the Lord is the Eucharistic Canon, the priest is the only one who does that, and he does so standing as well.

So the Canons of Nicea are obeyed.

 

[otjm]

Of course. But that doesn’t change the fact that I was formed in the way that I was, both within my church and within my culture. Western culture does view kneeling as a way to show respect, and this is reflected in literature and art from certain periods.

It is important to note that Latinizations are not only present in the U.S. Our priest is a recent immigrant from Slovakia. His young children did not receive Communion in their home country, as the practice of infant communion has not yet been restored. In his parish, kneeling was the norm for the consecration. Certain bishops in the US certainly have much to answer for, but it is not quite accurate to lay the blame for all Latinization at their feet.

Elizabeth

I would agree that it was not solely due to the American Bishops, but as best I can determine, they lead the charge and did so vociferously.

Keep in mind that standing is also a sign of respect; someone my age was cuffed about the head and shoulders if someone walked into the room and we did not stand.

I am old enough to have seen a number of changes. I am not minimizing anyone’s reactions to change; they (the reactions) are very real (as in "been there, done that, have the t shirt). But they are emotional reactions; emotions are very real and it is hard not to react when hit with a strong one. Emotions are neither good or bad solely in themselves; they just are. However, the question may be whether we should allow emotions to rule our conduct, or over-rule the emotions and conduct ourselves otherwise. It is not easy, particularly when the emotion is one that was inculcated early on and strongly.

As an aside, changes, if they stay in place long enough, can create a change in emotions. Our diocese has decided that one remains standing through the “Lord I am not worthy” part just before distribution of Communion, and has done so for quite some time. Saturday I was in another state at evening Mass, where they kneel (as we used to), and I was several heartbeats slower than anyone else there to get down on my knees; and so I have just recently experienced the flip-flop of what I was originally taught. It actually felt strange to be kneeling at that point (and I don’t have a dog in the fight).

 

[Formosus]

Yes, Canon 20 states that , on Sundays, when should stand when one offers the Lord’s Prayer. We do that.

The other prayer of the Lord is the Eucharistic Canon, the priest is the only one who does that, and he does so standing as well.

So the Canons of Nicea are obeyed.

It doesn’t say that. It says "CANON XX.

FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the Holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
"

 

[SyroMalankara]

The question is, what did the Council Fathers mean by this - did they mean a strict, unwavering adherence to this on every Sunday and during the Season of Pentecost - if so, all of our Churches have violated the Canon at least once, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East or Catholic.

What were the Fathers attempting to combat here - disunity, disuniformity, some heresy that we have long forgotten?

 

[Aboveallbereal]

There is a simple answer. I like us all was thought to kneel at the Consecration as an act of respect to The Lord.

Those who went before us thought such respect was warranted, were right, and should be followed.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There is a simple answer. I like us all was thought to kneel at the Consecration as an act of respect to The Lord.

Those who went before us thought such respect was warranted, were right, and should be followed.

You are speaking from the perspective of the Latin Church. This is the Eastern forum, no Eastern Churches kneel during the Consecration or Epiklesis on Sundays. My question is, why did the Fathers of the entire Church - East and West - say NOT to kneel on Sunday, what was their reasoning and the theology behind it?

AS to your statement about following “those who went before us” - if we take your logic to its obvious conclusion and go back far enough, you should question why a few went from the original position of standing, to kneeling.