Shouldn't we kneel during the consecration?

[Brendan]

It doesn’t say that. It says "CANON XX.

FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the Holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
"

You have a corrupted translation. Here is the Latin from the document ( the Canons of Niceea were published in both Latin and Greek, each is authoritative)

…ut omnia in universis locis consonater observentur, placuit sancto concililo stantes Domino vota persolvere

In order that in all places constantantly observe, it is pleasing that the prayers of the Lord standing are fully offered.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

There is a simple answer. I like us all was thought to kneel at the Consecration as an act of respect to The Lord.

Those who went before us thought such respect was warranted, were right, and should be followed.

Again, you should follow the liturgy. If you are at a Latin Rite mass in America and the lirurgy says to kneel, then you kneel. If you are at a mass of a different rite and the liturgy says to stand, then you stand. Obey the liturgy.

 

[Aramis]

The question is, what did the Council Fathers mean by this - did they mean a strict, unwavering adherence to this on every Sunday and during the Season of Pentecost - if so, all of our Churches have violated the Canon at least once, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East or Catholic.

What were the Fathers attempting to combat here - disunity, disuniformity, some heresy that we have long forgotten?

The simplest explanation, and the one most commonly held to outside of Rome’s Patrimony until the 18th century, was the whole of the divine worship service. Plus the office of the hours. Stand through matins, stand through 3rd hour, stand through the divine liturgy.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The simplest explanation, and the one most commonly held to outside of Rome’s Patrimony until the 18th century, was the whole of the divine worship service. Plus the office of the hours. Stand through matins, stand through 3rd hour, stand through the divine liturgy.

This is what we do in the Eastern Churches - for the most part - but all know that even the EO and OO allow for laymen to kneel, the explanation being that most people are unable to attend on the weekdays and prostrate, therefore they are allowed to do so out of economia…

Specifically for the Western Syriac Rites - the priest is required to kneel during the recitation of the Creed by the Deacon and laypeople. This is the practice of the Syriac Liturgy of St. James (click the 21:45 timeframe) from time immemorable. How does this practice reconcile with the Councils words?

 

[Formosus]

You have a corrupted translation. Here is the Latin from the document ( the Canons of Niceea were published in both Latin and Greek, each is authoritative)

In order that in all places constantantly observe, it is pleasing that the prayers of the Lord standing are fully offered.

"ut omnia in universis locis consonater observentur, placuit sancto concililo stantes Domino vota persolvere "

For one, the translation of the Latin you posted makes no mention of “concililo” in the english translation. As the first part does not diverge I will not bother with it. But as for the second this is how I’d put it

“It is agreed to the Holy Council to expound vows standing to the Lord”
“Placuit” “sancto concililo” “persolvere” “vota” “stantes” "Domino "

It says nothing about “prayers of the Lord” , as Lord is not in the genitive (domini) but rather in the dative (domino and Stantes appears to be a participle of Sto, stare (to stand) agreeing with Vota (Votum, -I ) .

 

[Harpazo]

"ut omnia in universis locis consonater observentur, placuit sancto concililo stantes Domino vota persolvere "

For one, the translation of the Latin you posted makes no mention of “concililo” in the english translation. As the first part does not diverge I will not bother with it. But as for the second this is how I’d put it

“It is agreed to the Holy Council to expound vows standing to the Lord”
“Placuit” “sancto concililo” “persolvere” “vota” “stantes” "Domino "

It says nothing about “prayers of the Lord” , as Lord is not in the genitive (domini) but rather in the dative (domino and Stantes appears to be a participle of Sto, stare (to stand) agreeing with Vota (Votum, -I ) .

Preach it!

I had always thought that the proceedings from Ecumenical Councils were for the entire Church. But I’m just one of those “foolish schismatics.”

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

"ut omnia in universis locis consonater observentur, placuit sancto concililo stantes Domino vota persolvere "

For one, the translation of the Latin you posted makes no mention of “concililo” in the english translation. As the first part does not diverge I will not bother with it. But as for the second this is how I’d put it

“It is agreed to the Holy Council to expound vows standing to the Lord”
“Placuit” “sancto concililo” “persolvere” “vota” “stantes” "Domino "

It says nothing about “prayers of the Lord” , as Lord is not in the genitive (domini) but rather in the dative (domino and Stantes appears to be a participle of Sto, stare (to stand) agreeing with Vota (Votum, -I ) .

Tisk, tisk, tisk; what part of the authority of holy scripture you dont understand here?

Philippians 2: 2 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, 3 though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 4
7
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance,
8
he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 6
9
Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name,
10
**that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, **11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.

What’s with this problem of authority that lurkes the Orthodox? When the councils and Canons are based from apostolic Tradition, sacred Scripture and recorded history that does not conflict with the teachings of Jesus. Either you accept them, reject them; remember what Jesus states; “if they reject you, they reject me also”. But then arguing from men’s perspectives is entertainment or a money maker.

Vivat Jesuit

 

[Formosus]

I am sorry but since I am an Eastern Catholic I do not accept only Scripture, but both Scripture and Tradition. The two do not conflict and the canon of Nicea does not conflict with the Scripture passage. I was pointing out that its a mistranslation to suggest that the canon is talking about the Lord’s Prayer. If you do not like the Eastern Catholic liturgical praxis of standing during the Anaphora on Sundays then no one is forcing you to go to one or to even stand when attending one. So why don’t you leave us to our Traditions and Liturgical practices and we will leave you to yours.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am sorry but since I am an Eastern Catholic I do not accept only Scripture, but both Scripture and Tradition. The two do not conflict and the canon of Nicea does not conflict with the Scripture passage. I was pointing out that its a mistranslation to suggest that the canon is talking about the Lord’s Prayer. If you do not like the Eastern Catholic liturgical praxis of standing during the Anaphora on Sundays then no one is forcing you to go to one or to even stand when attending one. So why don’t you leave us to our Traditions and Liturgical practices and we will leave you to yours./

QUOTE]

Your point is well taken, and we find agreement, If I ever visited your Mass, I would not disrespect your culture or posture.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Anyone else feeling the presence of Cardinal Humbert, Bishop Ireland, and Bishop Nicholas Elko making rounds lately?

 

[babochka]

I

I am old enough to have seen a number of changes. I am not minimizing anyone’s reactions to change; they (the reactions) are very real (as in "been there, done that, have the t shirt). But they are emotional reactions; emotions are very real and it is hard not to react when hit with a strong one. Emotions are neither good or bad solely in themselves; they just are. However, the question may be whether we should allow emotions to rule our conduct, or over-rule the emotions and conduct ourselves otherwise. It is not easy, particularly when the emotion is one that was inculcated early on and strongly.

As an aside, changes, if they stay in place long enough, can create a change in emotions. Our diocese has decided that one remains standing through the “Lord I am not worthy” part just before distribution of Communion, and has done so for quite some time. Saturday I was in another state at evening Mass, where they kneel (as we used to), and I was several heartbeats slower than anyone else there to get down on my knees; and so I have just recently experienced the flip-flop of what I was originally taught. It actually felt strange to be kneeling at that point (and I don’t have a dog in the fight).

It will be interesting to see how the Latin church in America and other English speaking countries reacts to the upcoming changes in the translation of the Liturgy. As you’ve pointed out, change is difficult (and emotional), even when you completely agree with the changes taking place and believe it is necessary.

Elizabeth

 

[Aramis]

Anyone else feeling the presence of Cardinal Humbert, Bishop Ireland, and Bishop Nicholas Elko making rounds lately?

Keep in mind, HG Nicholas + Elko was elevated to Auxiliary Archbishop, serving under a Roman Archbishop for his continued latinizations of the Ruthenians as the American Ruthenian Bishop. By all accounts I’ve seen, he was much happier that way.

Bishop Ireland was just obeying the canons under which he operated; the 3rd Canon of the 1st plenary council of Baltimore forbid any use of a missal other than the roman, and predates his tenure by most of a century. That he continued to do so after the Pope nullified that canon, well…

 

[Hesychios]

… that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, …

Just a small point here, but this passage is usually taken to assume that it is a command to kneel, but that is not at all clear.

When I practice the Metania my knees always bend, I think that it is the proper (ergonomically correct) way to do it, any other would invite injury (at least to me). The Metania is actually a substitute for a full prostration.

As to that other point, I do not believe that even in the Latin Catholic church people kneel at every mention of Jesus’ name. At most one can count on some nodding of the heads, which purport to be a bow.

Finally, the epiclesis itself is not a recitation of the name of Jesus. When His name is mentioned (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) we perform a Metania (bow).

http://www.orthodox.pl/OrthodoxEng/Uczelnie/Images/196-vinietka2.gif

** The Holy Anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom**

**Deacon: Let us stand well. Let us stand in awe. Let us be attentive, that we may present the holy offering in peace.
People: Mercy and peace, a sacrifice of praise.

Priest: **The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with all of you. ** + ]
People: And with your spirit.

Priest: Let us lift up our hearts. **
People: We lift them up to the Lord.

Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord. **
People: It is proper and right.

Priest*:*** It is proper and right to sing to You, bless You, praise You, thank You and worship You in all places of Your dominion; for You are God ineffable, beyond comprehension, invisible, beyond understanding, existing forever and always the same; You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You brought us into being out of nothing, and when we fell, You raised us up again. You did not cease doing everything until You led us to heaven and granted us Your kingdom to come. For all these things we thank You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit; for all things that we know and do not know, for blessings seen and unseen that have been bestowed upon us. We also thank You for this liturgy which You are pleased to accept from our hands, even though You are surrounded by thousands of Archangels and tens of thousands of Angels, by the Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring with their wings, Singing the victory hymn, proclaiming, crying out, and saying…**
People:* Holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna to God in the highest.*

Priest*:*** Together with these blessed powers, merciful Master, we also proclaim and say: You are holy and most holy, You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You are holy and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. He came and fulfilled the divine plan for us. On the night when He was delivered up, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed, sanctified, broke and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

“Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you for the forgiveness of sins.” **
People:* Amen.*

Priest*:*** Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:

"Drink of it all of you; this is my Blood of the new Covenant which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. "**
People:* Amen.*

Priest*:*** Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into he aven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming, we offer to You these gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all. **
People:* We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.*

Priest*:*** Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented. And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.
**
And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.

Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

**So that they may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation.

Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

**http://www.orthodox.pl/Images/Borders/Spas.jpg

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Just a small point here, but this passage is usually taken to assume that it is a command to kneel, but that is not at all clear.

When I practice the Metania my knees always bend, I think that it is the proper (ergonomically correct) way to do it, any other would invite injury (at least to me). The Metania is actually a substitute for a full prostration.