Shouldn't we warn against Mary worship?

[rcwitness]

I doubt if anyone believes Mary to be God…so there is no danger of too much devotion…

As a Catholic, I don’t think we are judged on what we believe, but what we do in our life. This is St. James whole point about Justification.

We, as I think Benidict XVI said, are all feminine to God. We receive God’s will. He is the ONLY one we receive. Through Mary? Perhaps in some ways; the incarnation and as evident in her example of humility.

I love how she said, “My soul magnifies the Lord.” I use this to witness the way each of us can participate in salvation.

So many good posts,
Thanks
I have to leave for the day. Look forward to reading many when I get home!
Michael

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

From the moment when we were called to the See of Peter, we have constantly striven to enhance devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, not only with the intention of interpreting the sentiments of the Church and our own personal inclination but also because, as is well known, this devotion forms a very noble part of the whole sphere of that sacred worship in which there intermingle the highest expressions of wisdom and of religion(1) and which is therefore the primary task of the People of God.

The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord. Moreover, the history of piety shows how “the various forms of devotion towards the Mother of God that the Church has approved within the limits of wholesome and orthodox doctrine”(5) have developed in harmonious subordination to the worship of Christ, and have gravitated towards this worship as to their natural and necessary point of reference. The same is happening in our own time. The Church’s reflection today on the mystery of Christ and on her own nature has led her to find at the root of the former and is a culmination of the latter the same figure of a woman: the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Christ and the Mother of the Church. And the increased knowledge of Mary’s mission has become joyful veneration of her and adoring respect for the wise plan of God, who has placed within His family (the Church), as in every home, the figure of a Woman, who in a hidden manner and in a spirit of service watches over that family “and carefully looks after it until the glorious day of the Lord.”(6)

1. As we prepare to discuss the place which the Blessed Virgin Mary occupies in Christian worship, we must first turn our attention to the sacred liturgy. In addition to its rich doctrinal content, the liturgy has an incomparable pastoral effectiveness and a recognized exemplary conduct for the other forms of worship. We would have liked to take into consideration the various liturgies of the East and the West, but for the purpose of this document we shall dwell almost exclusively on the books of the Roman Rite. In fact, in accordance with the practical norms issued by the Second Vatican Council,(9) it is this Rite alone which has been the object of profound renewal. This is true also in regard to expressions of veneration for Mary. This Rite therefore deserves to be carefully considered and evaluated.

 

[rcwitness]

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

JM3,
I appreciate this reference from vatican! I will read it over a few times to get its expression. Cuz its deep.
You have taken offence to me, I’m sorry. But nothing I said has been judgmental to you, your devotion or Vatican teaching. I merely believe, when the Church defines the role of Mary, it can get very deep. I don’t think it is wrong. There are many shallow Christians out there. Protestant and Catholic alike. They really should be balanced about who Mary is not, What Mary cannot do, and ultimatley what is wrong devotion to her. I think without a doubt many people have a disfunctional relationship with the Lord because they assume their devotion to Mary is pure. When in fact if it was pure they would know the Lord better.
For example Many gang members and thugs will have images of Our Lady on their car or tatood on their body or massive gold jewelry to “honor” her as though the Lord is pleased because of her intercession despite a life unrepentant of sin. I realize this isn’t Church teaching. That is not my point.
I only want to see more aknowledgments in our Church that Our Mother is not really our mother if we do not keep Christ’s commandments. They are not honoring Our Mother but a deity who keeps them assured, through deception, they are save in her arms.

Mary is our mother only when we keep the commands of her Son

Thanks Jm3 for your posts. I am not in dissagreement with you.
Michael

 

[JRKH]

Cutting through all of the undergrowth - let’s get to the nitty gritty.

God is our Father - Mary is our Mother. Jesus - being their Son is our Brother as well as our King.
This Familial picture is a wonderful and helpful image that we need to keep in mind.

One of the most basic understandings of Marion Devotion in the Church is that Mary points to Jesus. Mary leads us to Jesus…I say AMEN…

So here I have an image in mind of my mom holding my hand and leading me to my big brother who is my King.
Questions…
Do I hide behind my mother’s Skirt? Or do I make bold to approach my brother who loves me?
Do Leave my mother behind or do I keep her and her love with me as I go forward?
This is the journey of one who - raised Catholic - was raised with our Lady and our Lord simultaneously.

Now let me lay out a slightly different scenario.
The one who has met Jesus first. The Non-Catholic who has heard of Mary but hasn’t yet gotten to know her. For this person - when they come into the Church - Marion devotion can seem strange. For them the image is a little different. in this case, Jesus takes them by the hand and introduces them to their heavenly mother.
It is His desire that we come to know this whole other and new aspect of the story of salvation.

In both of these situations - the goal is to be able to “sit around the table” with our family. Talking with the Father and the son - encouraged by our Mother…Never leaving any of them out of the conversation - and never trying to make one to be what they are not.

With all of the deep and profound things written about various devotional forms - - - - I still find the simplest to be the best.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

When did God grant you the power to see inside the hearts of men and make this judgement?

This is the bottom line, right here.

To know when one crosses the line into worship requires the ability to see inside of someone’s mind and heart, to know their thoughts and emotions.

-Tim-

 

[rcwitness]

This is the bottom line, right here.

To know when one crosses the line into worship requires the ability to see inside of someone’s mind and heart, to know their thoughts and emotions.

-Tim-

Do you see that my point is to warn not to get to that point? It is not to judge anyones heart.

 

[paperwight66]

. The Church also participates in the mystery of divine motherhood, through preaching, which sows the seed of the Gospel throughout the world, and through the sacraments, which communicate grace and divine life to men. The Church exercises her motherhood especially in the sacrament of Baptism, when she generates God’s children from water and the Holy Spirit, who cries out in each of them: “Abba, Father!” (Gal 4:6). ."

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20120101_world-day-peace_en.html

But that is refering to the CHURCH’S motherhood - it is the church who is being refered to as ‘she’. It is not refering to MARY’S motherhood.

 

[JM3]

JM3,
I appreciate this reference from vatican! I will read it over a few times to get its expression. Cuz its deep.
You have taken offence to me, I’m sorry. But nothing I said has been judgmental to you, your devotion or Vatican teaching. I merely believe, when the Church defines the role of Mary, it can get very deep. I don’t think it is wrong. There are many shallow Christians out there. Protestant and Catholic alike. They really should be balanced about who Mary is not, What Mary cannot do, and ultimatley what is wrong devotion to her. I think without a doubt many people have a disfunctional relationship with the Lord because they assume their devotion to Mary is pure. When in fact if it was pure they would know the Lord better.
For example Many gang members and thugs will have images of Our Lady on their car or tatood on their body or massive gold jewelry to “honor” her as though the Lord is pleased because of her intercession despite a life unrepentant of sin. I realize this isn’t Church teaching. That is not my point.
I only want to see more aknowledgments in our Church that Our Mother is not really our mother if we do not keep Christ’s commandments. They are not honoring Our Mother but a deity who keeps them assured, through deception, they are save in her arms.

Mary is our mother only when we keep the commands of her Son

Thanks Jm3 for your posts. I am not in dissagreement with you.
Michael

I am not offended by you thinking that I worship Mary. I will always admit that I do. It is the will of God that Mary be worshipped and the Church teaches us how this is understood and accomplished. Which is why I suggested that you learn to understand what the Church teaches before making judgements about people, such as in the bolded section.

 

[De_Montfort]

I have never met anyone who has “worshipped” Mary. For the simple fact that Mary leads every soul striaght to God and union with Him. If one would desire to worship Mary he is not sharing in the spirit of Mary, which is the spirit of Jesus. She leads directly to Him. Mary has also destroyed all heresies, so if anyone (if it’s even possible) would desire to worship Her, She would be the FIRST to correct it.

There is not “too much” when it comes to loving or honoring Mary. She deserves even more praise and honor and the history of the Church gives witness to this through the Popes and Saints as years go by, as we call Her Blessed.

I follow St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion” to Mary. I give all that I am to Her in order to belong entirely to Jesus Christ. I want Her to represent me to Christ because She is perfect and loves Him perfectly, She knows how to bring about God’s greater glory. To be frank, it is prideful to think we know better ourselves then She does.

I ask anyone to supply a Church document or a quote from a Saint that says this or that is “too much” in Marian devotion!

 

[majorem]

Well, Benedict XVI had this to say just last year:

“Mary is the mother and model of the Church, who receives the divine Word in faith and offers herself to God as the “good soil” in which he can continue to accomplish his mystery of salvation. The Church also participates in the mystery of divine motherhood, through preaching, which sows the seed of the Gospel throughout the world, and through the sacraments, which communicate grace and divine life to men. The Church exercises her motherhood especially in the sacrament of Baptism, when she generates God’s children from water and the Holy Spirit, who cries out in each of them: “Abba, Father!” (Gal 4:6). Like Mary, the Church is the mediator of God’s blessing for the world: she receives it in receiving Jesus and she transmits it in bearing Jesus. He is the mercy and the peace that the world, of itself, cannot give, and which it needs always, at least as much as bread.”

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20120101_world-day-peace_en.html

Mary is not just a saint, she is “Mother of God” (a belief made dogmatic by the Council of Ephesus in 431) a person of unique and special stature who is a central figure in our faith. I can see how you might construe statements like:

“The Church exercises her motherhood especially in the sacrament of Baptism, when she generates God’s children from water and the Holy Spirit, who cries out in each of them: “Abba, Father!” (Gal 4:6).”

As ‘worship’, but when it comes to “faith and morals” the pope is the ultimate authority!

My suggestion would be to heed the advice in the Catechism:

"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

‘Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. and if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.’" - CCC 2478, quoting St. Ignatius of Loyola

Instead of worrying that the veneration of others has gone ‘too far’ and crossed into illicit ‘worship’, think of it as different Church figures resonating with different Catholics. That is, perhaps some Catholics find it easier to reach out to God via the Mother. If you are certain you must intercede and correct, consider St. Ignaitius’ sage advice above (which is the same advice given in the Gospel of Matthew).

 

[majorem]

Amen…I have a great Marian Devotion…and try Pray the Holy Rosary daily (with very little exception)…and…correct me if I’m wrong here…but…isn’t and shouldn’t ALL prayer be Christocentric…?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Yes James! I am looking for these official teachings that prevent the faithfull from putting to much glory on our mother

Here’s 2 more:*Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because “The glory of children are their fathers” (Prov. 17:6). (Pope Pius XII, Fulgens Corona, 15)

With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them. (St. Louis de Montfort, True Devotion to Mary, 14)*

 

[Mark121359]

Honestly, I don’t think that going “too far” in one’s devotion to Mary is something that is likely to occur in most cultures in the modern world.

I also think we need to be careful about making assumptions about what “many people” do. Based on what data? Our own anecdotal observations?

God, in His incarnation, already bestowed on Mary an honor far greater than anything we can give her. It’s far more likely that the honor we give her is too little than too much.

This!!!

 

[Mark121359]

CCC 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

“very special devotion” and “adoration” are both definitions of worship.

MARIALIS CULTUS

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

1. In the first place it is supremely fitting that exercises of piety directed towards the Virgin Mary should clearly express the Trinitarian and Christological note that is intrinsic and essential to them. Christian worship in fact is of itself worship offered to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, or, as the liturgy puts it, to the Father through Christ in the Spirit. From this point of view worship is rightly extended, though in a substantially different way, first and foremost and in a special manner, to the Mother of the Lord and then to the saints, in whom the Church proclaims the Paschal Mystery, for they have suffered with Christ and have been glorified with Him.(68) In the Virgin Mary everything is relative to Christ and dependent upon Him. It was with a view to Christ that God the Father from all eternity chose her to be the all-holy Mother and adorned her with gifts of the Spirit granted to no one else.

Amen!

 

[po18guy]

Michael, you appear to distrust some others. Let us learn to distrust ourselves first. Who do you know that is actually worshipping Mary? Since God knows our hearts, the only way to know, if you suspect that someone is worshipping Mary, is to ask them. This may take the rest of your life to investigate.

I also get the impression that you may have some of this reversed. We can venerate Mary solely because God favored her first. We have Christ as our Savior only because He conceived of her in His Divine Intellect and created her to be His mother. We honor her because God honored her first by saving her from original sin so as to carry His well-beloeved Son, in Whom He is well pleased.

Since none of us received this sublime privilege, let us distrust ourselves and our hearts first.

 

[Jeanne_S]

My relationship with Mary is that of a Mother and child.I find comfort and solace in her maternal love.I go to Mary as I would my own mother. I share my hurts and fears,my joys and sorrows.I also know that as the mother of Christ,she has a particular empathy for our sorrows. I love and appreciate her,knowing that,even when my earthly mother has passed on,I will always have Mary to turn to.I am a “Mama’s girl”

 

[Mark121359]

My relationship with Mary is that of a Mother and child.I find comfort and solace in her maternal love.I go to Mary as I would my own mother. I share my hurts and fears,my joys and sorrows.I also know that as the mother of Christ,she has a particular empathy for our sorrows. I love and appreciate her,knowing that,even when my earthly mother has passed on,I will always have Mary to turn to.I am a “Mama’s girl”

Shame on you Jeanne S! That sounds like worship to me! Nah, just kidding. I’m with you. My earthly mother passed away also. And I turn to Mary for everything. And I like what you said…I am a “Mama’s girl” Only, in my case I’m a “Mama’s boy”

Peace, Mark

 

[TimothyH]

Do you see that my point is to warn not to get to that point? It is not to judge anyones heart.

Along with Holy Mother Church, you have given your warning.

As one who is consecrated to Mary according to the method of St. Louis de Montfort, my respectful advice is to forget entirely about what other people pray about, how they pray, or to whom and worry about your own prayer life.

How other people pray is none of your business. Worry about deepening your own prayer life. Speak to Mary, to the saints, to Jesus, to the Father, or to the Holy Spirit. Speak as a lover speaks to his beloved, and forget about everyone else.

There are many people very advanced in prayer on these forums, and in this very thread - people who have learned to pray from contemplative Monks and who spend many hours in adoration every week and have done so for years. I’m sure these appreciation your warnings. We undersand. Now let it go.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

I have never met anyone who has “worshipped” Mary. For the simple fact that Mary leads every soul striaght to God and union with Him. If one would desire to worship Mary he is not sharing in the spirit of Mary, which is the spirit of Jesus. She leads directly to Him. Mary has also destroyed all heresies, so if anyone (if it’s even possible) would desire to worship Her, She would be the FIRST to correct it.

There is not “too much” when it comes to loving or honoring Mary. She deserves even more praise and honor and the history of the Church gives witness to this through the Popes and Saints as years go by, as we call Her Blessed.

I follow St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion” to Mary. I give all that I am to Her in order to belong entirely to Jesus Christ. I want Her to represent me to Christ because She is perfect and loves Him perfectly, She knows how to bring about God’s greater glory. To be frank, it is prideful to think we know better ourselves then She does.

I ask anyone to supply a Church document or a quote from a Saint that says this or that is “too much” in Marian devotion!

My friend - you bring up a very good point here.
The Church does give warning not to go too far but she doesn’t really lay out - by examples - what that would entail.
I think that this is part of the reason that (for instance) I might look at your devotionals and say - “Oooo that’s too much for me - I’m not comfortable with that. It sounds too much like worship”, and you might look at mine and say - “Is that all you offer? That doesn’t seem like enough. That seems like you are ignoring our Heavenly Mother”…

Then - as you well know - we start trying to explain our positions to each other…and - well - sometimes that doesn’t work out so well. (Thankfully you and I have come to a pretty good understanding so it’s all good )

One thing that I WOULD say might come close to what you ask for above is the quote I gave from LG:
“Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.”
Of course even this is not very specific…But I do think that it does point out a need to be sensitive to our “separated brethren”, their needs, and the very real desire that our Lord and our Blessed Mother do not wish Marion devotion to become a barrier to those looking at and into the Church.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Michael, you appear to distrust some others. Let us learn to distrust ourselves first. Who do you know that is actually worshiping Mary? Since God knows our hearts, the only way to know, if you suspect that someone is worshiping Mary, is to ask them. This may take the rest of your life to investigate.

Well said

And asking people is one reason why I think that discussions like this one are so important. Many people benefit from them. On the one hand more people are exposed to some of the different Marion Devotions. Some difficult prayers can be explained. The nuances of veneration v worship can be explored and - to me - most importantly, people can discover that there are different levels and types of devotions.

The Church is just so great in the wondrous variety of devotional paths available.

Peace
James