HiThis is part of a message I got from **Marty Barrach **
That is very kind of you, I doubt he will I asked Marty Barrack but he has his own site, so not likely. I appreciate your patience.Hi
You are welcome to quote from him here from Marty Barrach but with relevance to the point of some post being discussed. I don’t mind if he becomes a member of this forum and participates in the discussions as others are doing.Remember, there will be not debate, please.
Thanks
HiThat is very kind of you, I doubt he will I asked Marty Barrack but he has his own site, so not likely. I appreciate your patience.
Ah I’m not sure I know what you mean but of course you could e-mail not a discussion forum, sorry if I made it sound like a forum. I haven’t checked it out his total site but he does have books etc. or downloads I think. My thoughts are not important.Hi
If he runs a discussion forum, open to every body and every religion then I could also post there.
There is another solution, you please read his books/articles and his thought and then write here yourself and join the discussion. I don’t deny that, please.
Thanks
Where are you going with all this?? Who ever said the Bible answers every rational question?? Just a few:Hi
Please mention the Claim and Reason from the text of Book of Jonah in OTBible, clear straight passages, not what you wish to see there, but it is in fact there.
Thanks
The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.
Anyone else find this just a bit insulting? Others have quoted Jesus (who is of course God) regarding His explanation of Jonah, yet because you insist Jesus is not God, you will not accept it. This is not peaceful discussion among faiths as you claim. These are diametrically opposed beliefs about the same person.When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.
HiWhere are you going with all this?? Who ever said the Bible answers every rational question?
paarsurrey said:The problem becomes acute or complex when due to certain misconception the clergy, while they don’t find answers in the Book, yet they won’t admit. They start feeding answers from their own wisdom. They try filling the vacuum by their own interpretations first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there in the Book.
And this is what Imam Madhi has done in the writings you have cited.
So, they are exposed.
And so, Imam Madhi is exposed.
This is a common phenomenon in every religion; the Clergy hijacking the religion.
Clergy are needed to maintain a religion.
HiWith regard to your friend Kellie, I don’t think she really exists. I think you made her up as a trap. Well sir, it’s not going to work.
Actually, someone was nice enough to PM about this. After reading through that thread, I think it’s laughable how you hijacked his/her argument.Hi
No, Sir
Please view her profile on the forum, which is like this
kellie Forum Supporter
Senior Member
Last Activity: Jul 2, '07 7:08 am
Join Date: May 18, '04
PostsTotal Posts: 1,071 (0.94 posts per day)
I only became a member in April 2007; so your guess is not correct. Kellie is a reality in this forum, not fixed by me here.
However, our main interest is knowing the criteria of false/true prophet as per OTBible; Jesus referred to it. Kindly read the posts in this thread, assume that you are in Nineveh , Jonah comes there and announces that he is a ProphetMessenger of God, if you would accept him on what Criteria, and if you reject him on what Criteria. As simple as that.
Please don’t mind, it is just a discussion to reach the truth
Thanks
HiActually, someone was nice enough to PM about this. After reading through that thread.
Also, Jonah never says, " I am a prophet/messenger of God." Jonah only preaches the message God gives to him. The Ninevites choose to believe the **message ** (not a nonexistent claim) and repent of there ways hoping God will relent, which He does.
It amazes me how your one criteria for a true prophet is that all he has to do is state, " I am a prophet /messenger from God." How does a prophet stating this suddenly make his message more valid. The message a prophet delivers is more important than whether he actually states he is. This was the point of Kellie’s argument. If she states she is a prophet or messenger from God, you, Paar, must believe her based on your criteria regardless of the message.Hi
I am thankful to the nice guy who PMed you the post. Have you read the whole thread? I am in fact in search of the true criteria of a false/true Prophet.It is an important religious issue.
I am surprised to note that the emphasis of Catholic and Jewish religious thought is on False Prophet rather than on the True Prophet; there is little material available on the characteristics of True Prophet with references from OTBible.
- We cannot doubt that Jonah was true Prophet, as this has been confirmed by Jesus.
- Now God gave Jonah a message for the Ninevites, how could they believe the message if he does not tell them** “I am a prophet/messenger of God"** believe this and obey it. So, the **first reasonable criterion **would be that the Prophet would tell them that God has talked to him and here is the message for you, he declares. Without telling this meaningful preaching is not possible. Like Jesus, he told Jews that God has talked to him. Similarly, God told Moses the same thing, only then their people could be bound by God and the Prophet.
Do you agree with this?
It is reasonable, I think. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks
HiIt amazes me how your one criteria for a true prophet is that all he has to do is state, " I am a prophet /messenger from God." How does a prophet stating this suddenly make his message more valid. The message a prophet delivers is more important than whether he actually states he is. This was the point of Kellie’s argument. If she states she is a prophet or messenger from God, you, Paar, must believe her based on your criteria regardless of the message.
I disagree. How can you judge whether the prophet is a true prophet based on his declaration that he is a prophet? A false prophet can make that claim just as easily.Hi
I don’t mean that there is only one Criterion; by far it has to be the first one. If the Prophet is not sure that GodAllahYHWH has talked to him, i.e., if he himself does not believe in his Prophethood; how could others believe in him if he does not say it affirmatively? He has to declare it and then tell the message.
It is just a discussion not a debate, please.
I think perhaps I could not explain to you fully earlier. I start it again.
We take the very first two verses from Jonah from OTBible: Jonah 1:1-2
1 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”
OK. Where does Jonah actually proclaim he is a messenger from God?So:
- Word of Lord came to Jonah; he believed that it is from God.
- Jonah was ordered by God "Go to the great city of Nineveh”, so this shows that God has chosen Jonah as His Messenger.
- Now Jonah has a message that he has to preach.
- God has judged about the Ninevites that they are not people of justice and peace, they have been judged by God as Wicked people.
Don’t understand you here. The Ninevites did repent of their wicked ways. Because like I said before, they heard the message that Nineveh would be destroyed:I think that the Second criterion is that the people, whom God has judged as WICKED, are in fact WICKED and won’t reform themselves, because they never thought that they were WICKED. God’s judgment is correct and cannot be challenged, that the Prophet has to convey.
Do you agree with me?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Since we are all discussing, anybody could correct me.
Thanks
And they believed God (ie. the message), not the messenger.Jonah Ch3 V 4-5
Jonah began his journey through the city, and had gone but a single day’s walk announcing, “Forty days more and Nineveh shall be destroyed,”
when the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast and all of them, great and small, put on sackcloth.
Why do you keep posting this?? There is an emphasis on both true and false because it is only through discernment that we can know the true prophet from the false. And the criterion of “I am a messenger/prophet, listen to me.” is not one of them.I am surprised to note that the emphasis of Catholic and Jewish religious thought is on False Prophet rather than on the True Prophet; there is little material available on the characteristics of True Prophet with references from OTBible.
What is so suprising? The characteristics of a true prophet ought to be obvious. He should uphold the commandments,he should be pure of heart,and exhort the people to repent of their sins,to pray to God in supplication and to show mercy.There were more false prophets than true prophets,and they caused trouble for Israel by leading people astray.Hi
I don’t mean that there is only one Criterion; by far it has to be the first one. If the Prophet is not sure that GodAllahYHWH has talked to him, i.e., if he himself does not believe in his Prophethood; how could others believe in him if he does not say it affirmatively? He has to declare it and then tell the message.
The message and the works are the declaration.
Anyone can say of himself that he is a prophet.
I am surprised to note that the emphasis of Catholic and Jewish religious thought is on False Prophet rather than on the True Prophet;
In what way? Jews and Catholics read and think upon the true prophets.
there is little material available on the characteristics of True Prophet with references from OTBible.
HiI disagree. How can you judge whether the prophet is a true prophet based on his declaration that he is a prophet? A false prophet can make that claim just as easily.
What does Noah have to do with Jonah being a prophet? Noah was not a prophet or messenger of God. He heard God’s message and did as God commanded. He never went to the wicked people to explain what he was doing or that God was going to destroy all living things.Hi
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. Genesis 6:9
So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. Genesis 6:13
Noah did everything just as God commanded him. Genesis 6:22
The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Genesis 6:21-22.
We infer from the above:
- Noah was a sinless (blameless) man,
- and that is why God chose him for his message to his people, God talked with Noah , one to one, there was no other witness required ( note this similarity with Jonah).
- God told Noah something from the unseen realm (which only God knew) that his people have to be destroyed for their wickedness ( their wickedness pertained to the past or present) yet their destruction would be in future, all from the unseen realm, not known to Noah unless God told him so.
- Noah obeyed God as every Chosen-One of GodAllahYHWH always does.
- He prepared an Arch under commandment of GodAllahYHWH, though his people ridiculed him.
You would agree, if you like though no compulsion that there are a lot of similarities in the points mentioned about Jonah submitted by me, and the points mentioned above. Do you agree?
I think now you would be kind enough to agree with me at last.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you!
Thanks
The people of Nineveh believe his message and repent. They don’t reject him. And I will state it again, Jonah never identifies himself as a prophet. He only delivers God’s message to them, “40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed.”Like it happened with Jonah, the same way it happened to Noah and Moses. When these humble person told their (wicked) people that they have been Chosen (ProphetMessenger) by GodAllahYHWH for their reformation, their (wicked) people became their dead-enemies, they opposed them, they ridiculed them and did not accept them.
**MHalsey [/quote said:;2445396]
Why do you keep posting this?? There is an emphasis on both true and false because it is only through discernment that we can know the true prophet from the false. And the criterion of “I am a messenger/prophet, listen to me.” is not one of them.
Hi
Simply because I noted it when I searched OTBible about Criterian of True/False Prophet that this tilt on False Prophets had hardened the Jews of the time of Jesus and before him.
I also noted that Jesus had also noted it, and it is on record in the NTBible Matthew 23:35-36. PromisedMessiahImamMahdi also took notice on this:alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html
"Among the testimonies of the gospel which have reached us is the verse from Matthew: ‘That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation’.* Now, if you think over these verses you will find that Jesus (peace be on him) clearly states that the killing of prophets by the Jews ceased with the prophet Zacharias, and that after that, the Jews would have no power to kill any prophet. This is a great prophecy which clearly points out that Jesus (peace be on him) was not killed as the result of crucifixion; he was rather saved from the Cross, dying ultimately a natural death. For if Jesus (peace be on him) was also to suffer death by murder like Zacharias, at the hands of the Jews, he would have hinted in these verses at his own murder. If it is urged that Jesus (peace be on him) also was killed by the Jews but his being killed was not a sin on the Jews’ part, for Jesus’ death was of the nature of an atonement, the contention is hardly tenable, for in John, chap. 19, verse 11, Jesus clearly says that the Jews have been guilty of a great sin for having resolved to kill Jesus; and likewise, in many other places there is the clear hint that as a penalty for the crime of which they had been guilty against Jesus, they had deserved punishment in the sight of God.**
- Matthew 23:35-36.
** Matthew 26:24.
Unquote
I think, you undestand it now, it is reasonable.
HiLet’s get the discussion back on topic.
Thanks and God bless-
Rachel