Sign of Jonah

[adrift]

Hi
I think you would understand, despite my deficiency in English, by reading the post #32 of Jun 19, '07, 7:38 pm by kellie
from Melbourne, Australia on the thread titled “Jesus died in India”
Kellie said addressing me,
“So if I tell you that I have received a message from God that I am to be His prophet here in Australia, you will believe me?”
It was in this context that this discussion is made. I don’t claim to be proficiant in English, please.
I think the matter in now clear to you.

Thank you, indeed that does clears it up. I am afraid you missed the point of her question. She was not cliaming to be a prophet. Her question was do you believe everyone who says that they are messenger from God? Are all those claims valid?

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you, indeed that does clears it up. I am afraid you missed the point of her question. She was not cliaming to be a prophet. Her question was do you believe everyone who says that they are messenger from God? Are all those claims valid?

Hi
For that you got to have some Criteria and that is why this discussion is being made. Please participate in it to know the truth. Please don’t mind, I so respect you all.
Thanks

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
For that you got to have some Criteria and that is why this discussion is being made. Please participate in it to know the truth. Please don’t mind, I so respect you all.
Thanks

Where is the proof that Jesus did not die on the cross?
Participate in the discussion so that you will know the truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you, indeed that does clears it up. I am afraid you missed the point of her question. She was not cliaming to be a prophet. Her question was do you believe everyone who says that they are messenger from God? Are all those claims valid?

Hi
This is exactly the question that the people of Nineveh were confronted with, when Jonah must have told them ( there could never be any witnesses except God who spoke to Jonah, and Jonah who listened to His God) that he is a Prophet of GodAllahYHWH. A very valid question indeed! Jesus has accepted Jonah as a true ProphetMessenger of God, and Jesus being a Jew followed what was written in OTBible, so kindly mention the criteria from NTBible of a true Prophet, and also of a false Prophet.
Thanks

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
This is exactly the question that the people of Nineveh were confronted with, when Jonah must have told them ( there could never be any witnesses except God who spoke to Jonah, and Jonah who listened to His God) that he is a Prophet of GodAllahYHWH. A very valid question indeed! Jesus has accepted Jonah as a true ProphetMessenger of God, and Jesus being a Jew followed what was written in OTBible, so kindly mention the criteria from NTBible of a true Prophet, and also of a false Prophet.
Thanks

The criteria is that a true prophet obeys the commandments and exhorts others to repent and do the same.They do not lead others into sin,but to righteousness.They are known by their works. The works of Jesus were healing the sick and the lame,giving sight to the blind,giving hearing to the deaf,giving speech to the dumb,and
raising the dead.

 

[paarsurrey]

anthony022071:
The criteria is that a true prophet obeys the commandments and does not lead others into sin. They are known by their works. The works of Jesus were healing the sick and the lame,giving sight to the blind,giving hearing to the deaf,giving speech to the dumb,and
raising the dead.

Hi
Thanks for your response, but your Criteria does not fit on Jonah. Jonah is not known for doing such works before the people of Nineveh i.e,healing the sick and the lame,giving sight to the blind,giving hearing to the deaf,giving speech to the dumb,and
raising the dead; yet Jonah was considered by Jesus as a true ProphetMessenger of God. Kindly revise your Criteria so that Jonah proves to be a truthful Prophet of God.
Thanks

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
Thanks for your response, but your Criteria does not fit on Jonah. Jonah is not known for doing such works before the people of Nineveh i.e,healing the sick and the lame,giving sight to the blind,giving hearing to the deaf,giving speech to the dumb,and
raising the dead; yet Jonah was considered by Jesus as a true ProphetMessenger of God. Kindly revise your Criteria so that Jonah proves to be a truthful Prophet of God.
Thanks

I did not say that those things were criteria for a true prophet. I said that a true prophet is known by his works,which means: whether they are good or evil,whether the prophet obeys the commandments and exhorts others to repent and obey the commandments. Jonah’s work was the proclamation of repentance before the city of Ninevah,so that it might not be destroyed. And Jesus did likewise with the city of Jerusalem.

 

[paarsurrey]

I did not say that those things were criteria for a true prophet.

Hi
The focus of discussion is the Criteria of a true/false ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH from OTBible, please.
Thanks

 

[LilyM]

Hi
The focus of discussion is the Criteria of a true/false ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH from OTBible, please.
Thanks

Well remember the OT doesn’t pretend to record everything that happened to Jonah or to to the people of Nineveh when he arrived there to preach. So it may be that he demonstrated his prophethood to them in some way that we don’t know because it wasn’t recorded.

Remember that to us the life and death of Jesus Christ, who was God incarnate, was the single greatest event in human history. The second greatest will be his return, which I understand even Muslims believe will herald the end of the world.

So all prophecy looked towards the events of his life and death, and also his second coming. All such prophecy ended with the death of his follower John, who wrote in great detail about the second coming. And the measure by which we judge a prophet is whether their prophecy related to these events.

As such it doesn’t matter to us what criteria Jews or Muslims or anyone else use to determine the believability of a prophet.

 

[anthony022071]

Hi
The focus of discussion is the Criteria of a true/false ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH from OTBible, please.
Thanks

As I said before, the criteria is that a true prophet abides by the commandments and exhorts others to repent and abide by the commandments. And he foretells what will happen if the Word of God is heeded,and what will happen if the Word of God is not heeded.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well remember the OT doesn’t pretend to record everything that happened to Jonah or to to the people of Nineveh when he arrived there to preach. So it may be that he demonstrated his prophethood to them in some way that we don’t know because it wasn’t recorded.

As such it doesn’t matter to us what criteria Jews or Muslims or anyone else use to determine the believability of a prophet.

Hi
I think ordinarily the Catholics are not used to applying reason by themselves to obtain true meaning of the scriptures, as they have left this task to be done by the Clergy, they just follow them blindly. If we are free and have GodAllahYHWH as the Supreme-Guide, we must flex our brain muscles ( for the spiritual purpose as we use for our material worldy gains) to that end and the scriptures open up before us, with the true meaning.
Let us try it out, as suggested by me earlier jointly for the Criteria of true ProphetsMessengers.
First we jot down some relevant points:

1. Jesus said he would show the Sign of Jonah.
2. For whom? The Jews he meant and he expressed so specifically.
3. The Jews only believed like Jesus, the OTBible.
4. Then why did he select Jonah of all the Prophets, there were others like Abraham, Moses (Catholics say that Jesus was a Prophet like Moses whose detailed account is available in OTBible, he must have been the Jesus’ first choice but despite the Prophecy as Catholics believe, he did not select Moses. Or for instance, his next choice would have been King David (I love him so much!) and Catholics say that Jesus was from the line of David, yet Jesus din not mention it here. etc ,etc ,etc
5. Jonah was just an ordinary ProphetMessenger whose account of life is not mentioned in detail in OTBible (only a few pages in the OTBible) or in any history book, to my knowledge. Jesus also did not mention to Jews, the Sign would be shown to them for which details would be given in the NTBible, so OTBible- the book of Jews is to be preferred.
6. Jesus said one who is greater than Jonah is before you (Jews). Here it is clear, to me, that he did not consider himself above Moses for instance.
7. The important thing is that Jonah was a Prophet before his episode of Fish. He had no followers, no witnesses of his conversation with GodAllahYHWH. Neither there can be any witnesses, because GodAllahYHWH talks with his Messenger directly, nor could be any; the messenger believes with certainty that he is talking with GodAllahYHWH and God already knows. There can’t be any witnesses, it is illogical. If somebody claims that he was a witness or there were others who witnessed, under such circumstances he/they are exposed, I must say.
8. It is for this reason that the first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, and that in itself is a complete proof - needs no external support necessarily.

This is just a draft and I leave it incomplete purposely as I want that Catholics, and of course the Protestants and JWs etc, should also participate if they like in arriving at the Criteria. I may also later add something to it.
Thanks

 

[KatholikosMercy]

1. It is for this reason that the first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, and that in itself is a complete proof - needs no external support necessarily.

This is just a draft and I leave it incomplete purposely as I want that Catholics, and of course the Protestants and JWs etc, should also participate if they like in arriving at the Criteria. I may also later add something to it.
Thanks

What is PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 and how is it any moer proof than the National Inquirer?

 

[anthony022071]

Here it is clear, to me, that he did not consider himself above Moses for instance.

That is a stupid thing for you to say.

Jesus said to them “I solemnly assure you,it was not Moses who gave you bread from the heavens;it is my Father who gives you the the real heavenly bread.” John 6,32.

1. The important thing is that Jonah was a Prophet before his episode of Fish. He had no followers, no witnesses of his conversation with GodAllahYHWH. Neither there can be any witnesses, because GodAllahYHWH talks with his Messenger directly, nor could be any; the messenger believes with certainty that he is talking with GodAllahYHWH and God already knows. There can’t be any witnesses, it is illogical. If somebody claims that he was a witness or there were others who witnessed, under such circumstances he/they are exposed, I must say.
2. It is for this reason that the first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, and that in itself is a complete proof - needs no external support necessarily.

That is not complete proof. That is complete stupidity.

 

[adrift]

Mathew 12 38-42

 He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful 28 generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.

40

Then Jesus explains what He means by the sign of Jonah

Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, 29 so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Your basic question as I understand it is really why do we believe?
The very definition of belief

Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Belief
makes it an individual acceptance. Your belief cannot be substantiated because then it wouldn’t be belief.
It is your belief system that makes you blind to what we say. Your belief makes you follow blindly your faith and dismiss everything we present to you. You have yet to answer the challenge that there is any historical evidence to what you say. All that you have is speculation from a prejudicial source that you cannot or will not see is biased.

 

[paarsurrey]

What is PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 and how is it any moer proof than the National Inquirer?

Hi
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahamdia community- a peaceful faith in Islam was appointed by GodAllahYHWH as the Promised Messiah (and Imam Mahdi) or Divine Guide who was to come in the Latter Days as prophesized in many world religions to unite mankind peacefully into One Religion. This prophecy is there in Hinduism, in Judaism, in Christianity and in Islam.
This is in short.
I cannot understand the later portion of your question “and how is it any moer proof than the National Inquirer”. Kindly elaborate so that I could understand and reply you.
Thanks

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Hi
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahamdia community- a peaceful faith in Islam was appointed by GodAllahYHWH as the Promised Messiah (and Imam Mahdi) or Divine Guide who was to come in the Latter Days as prophesized in many world religions to unite mankind peacefully into One Religion. This prophecy is there in Hinduism, in Judaism, in Christianity and in Islam.
This is in short.
I cannot understand the later portion of your question “and how is it any moer proof than the National Inquirer”. Kindly elaborate so that I could understand and reply you.
Thanks

We believe the promised Messiah is Jesus and that he will return.

 

[paarsurrey]

We believe the promised Messiah is Jesus and that he will return.

Hi
Since I believe Jesus was not God or Son of God he was a Son of Man/Woman a ProphetMessenger and he died a peaceful, respectful and natural death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India. One who dies cannot come to this world literally, yes, he could come symbolically as was John the Baptist declared by JesusYeshuaIssa as Elijah who is said to have ascended to skies in a whirlwind alongwith his chariot and the horses. He was to descend before Jesus, so it happened symbolically.
This question has been settled by Jesus himself.
Jesus second coming is in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appointed by Word of God revealed on him. So the promise is fullfilled.
Thanks

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Jesus second coming is in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appointed by Word of God revealed on him. So the promise is fullfilled.

I do not believe the promise is fulfilled.

How did you come to believe in this Ahmad?

Are you here to try and convince others of this?

 

[paarsurrey]

How did you come to believe in this Ahmad?

Hi
Please help define the Criteria of a true/false PropheteMessenger from OTBible, that is what is being searched after in this thread. Please read the OP, till then it won’t be rational, reasonable and logical to answer/question such things.
I respect you religion, but let me be free to form my own opinion.
Please don’t mind, it is just a discussion to reach the truth
Thanks

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Hi
Please help define the Criteria of a true/false PropheteMessenger from OTBible, that is what is being searched after in this thread. Please read the OP, till then it won’t be rational, reasonable and logical to answer/question such things.
I respect you religion, but let me be free to form my own opinion.
Please don’t mind, it is just a discussion to reach the truth
Thanks

You can’t fit God into “criteria”. He goes where he wills and nothing is impossible for him. Gods, criteria for doing anyting would be infinite. Thus I feel the question is irrational so cannot help. Sorry.