Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

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ConstantineTG said:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology

Also, a lot of the Marian dogmas focus too much on Mary and loses focus on Christ.
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I do not see a source of concern or fear with Mariology. It recognizes the place Mary had from all eternity in God’s plan, and seeks to direct honor to the woman who was created by Jesus to be His mother, who God honored first by choosing her to carry and raise His only Son, and who the Holy Spirit overshadowed at the Incarnation. That so radical?

As has been said here before, Catholicism is not an either/or faith, but both/and. What you have said can also be applied to worship of the Holy Spirit - would not there be a danger of losing focus on Christ also? What about worshipping the Father? Same thing. The point is to maintain a healthy balance, which requires effort and prudential judgment on our part. Once one realizes just how absolutely crucial Mary was to God, and how crucial she is the fullness of our faith, one’s attitude changes.
ConstantineTG said:
Also the original context of such traditions such as the Assumption are lost, thus the belief becomes different even though certain elements of the Assumption are the same.
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Um, at the end of her earthly life, she was assumed by God into Heaven. Not really much there to change, is there? The only unknowns, and they have been unknown from ancient times, is whether or not she actually died before she was assumed, and where this actually occurred.

Take heart in the fact that nothing has been stated dogmatically to fill in the blanks. The Church leaves the unknown as unknown. No false religion will dare do that.

If you are concerned with the Catholic attention given to Mary, DO NOT attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
 
JRKH said:
Actually in my case I have seen them us the “Hail Holy Queen” more than the Hail Mary.
The phrasing in this prayer IS more troubling - more easily misunderstood due to issues with translation from the Latin.

Peace
James
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Let me look at the Hail Holy Queen a sec.

Hail, Holy Queen,
Mother of Mercy,
Our Life
Our Sweetness
And our hope.

To thee do we cry,
Poor Banished Children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn, then,
Most gracious advocate,
Thine eyes of mercy toward us,
And after this our exile,
Show unto us the Blessed fruit
Of they womb Jesus.

O Clement,
O Loving,
O sweet virgin Mary,
Pray for us O holy
Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy
Of the Promises of Christ.

I can definitely see what you mean, but I can also invoke almost the exact same explanation for this prayer. It just has more words in it. Truthfully, it does take a Catholic understanding to weed out what may be worship and is actually honoring. But, if you break it down line by line, it’s almost the exact same situation as the Hail Mary.

Thanks for the food for thought.

Let me know, anyone, if I’m being unclear.
 
StCardinalVirtu said:
Let me look at the Hail Holy Queen a sec.

Hail, Holy Queen,
Mother of Mercy,
Our Life
Our Sweetness
And our hope.

To thee do we cry,
Poor Banished Children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn, then,
Most gracious advocate,
Thine eyes of mercy toward us,
And after this our exile,
Show unto us the Blessed fruit
Of they womb Jesus.

O Clement,
O Loving,
O sweet virgin Mary,
Pray for us O holy
Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy
Of the Promises of Christ.

I can definitely see what you mean, but I can also invoke almost the exact same explanation for this prayer. It just has more words in it. Truthfully, it does take a Catholic understanding to weed out what may be worship and is actually honoring. But, if you break it down line by line, it’s almost the exact same situation as the Hail Mary.

Thanks for the food for thought.

Let me know, anyone, if I’m being unclear.
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Probably line like ‘turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy upon us …’ is cause of concern among the Protestants. One can pray to the Holy Spirit or even Jesus by using that line and there’s hardly any difference. A person needs to understand very well why prayer to the Blessed Virgin is said that way. And how many Protestants would understand that. So it’s quite a problem for them.
 
joe370 said:
For example?
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Immaculate Conception, Assumption, the Marian apparitions.
po18guy said:
I do not see a source of concern or fear with Mariology. It recognizes the place Mary had from all eternity in God’s plan, and seeks to direct honor to the woman who was created by Jesus to be His mother, who God honored first by choosing her to carry and raise His only Son, and who the Holy Spirit overshadowed at the Incarnation. That so radical?
Click to expand...
The fact that there is theology around Mary is source for concern. Our theology should be about God and more about Christ who is God in our midst. In the First Millennium there was no Marian dogmas, no Mariology. The affirmation that Mary is the Theotokos in the Third Ecumenical Council is more a statement about Christ, that is that the child Mary carried in her womb is fully God as well as fully man. This was to combat any idea that the human Jesus only became God at a later time (either at birth or at baptism in the Jordan or that the human and divine natures were completely separate, all heresies).
po18guy said:
As has been said here before, Catholicism is not an either/or faith, but both/and. What you have said can also be applied to worship of the Holy Spirit - would not there be a danger of losing focus on Christ also? What about worshipping the Father? Same thing. The point is to maintain a healthy balance, which requires effort and prudential judgment on our part. Once one realizes just how absolutely crucial Mary was to God, and how crucial she is the fullness of our faith, one’s attitude changes.
Click to expand...
I hope you realize here that you just compared Mary to the two other Persons of God. Which is the problem we are discussing about. Is our faith about Mary or is our faith about Christ? The last 3 dogmas of the Catholic Church aren’t even focused on Christ. It is about Peter/Pope and 2 on Mary. Even the Assumption has lost its original Traditional meaning. To Roman Catholics it is simply about Mary being assumed into heaven as a privilege of being the Mother of God. But the Dormition Tradition is really about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise, first granted to the humblest of all of God’s creation. Mary’s death, resurrection and assumption is not about her but about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise of resurrection for all. It is about assurance for the rest of us that resurrection is indeed going to take place for us all. It is easy to believe that Jesus resurrected because He is God. But Mary’s resurrection is solid proof that indeed all will be resurrected.
po18guy said:
Um, at the end of her earthly life, she was assumed by God into Heaven. Not really much there to change, is there? The only unknowns, and they have been unknown from ancient times, is whether or not she actually died before she was assumed, and where this actually occurred.
Click to expand...
Her death is not unknown. It was unquestionable. To claim that it was unknown in the early Church is complete ignorance of belief in the early Church. No one in the early Church believed that she did not die. In fact even MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS states that she died several times. I don’t know where it is unclear, except for those who prefer to make conclusions out of one line from a pretty long, multi-paragraph document.
po18guy said:
Take heart in the fact that nothing has been stated dogmatically to fill in the blanks. The Church leaves the unknown as unknown. No false religion will dare do that.

If you are concerned with the Catholic attention given to Mary, DO NOT attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
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Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Even the Orthodox say that Catholics worship Mary. For the time I am Catholic I would have taken the same stand as you do. But after I put myself on the other side of the fence and looked at the Orthodox veneration of Mary, it is not the same. Catholics do take it further and more extreme. For one thing, it is very rare for one to see an Orthodox icon of the Theotokos without Christ. Yet almost every statue of Mary is without Christ. In statues of the apparitions, we even see statues of other people kneeling and praying to Mary. How many statues of Christ do you see in Catholic Churches that have statues of people kneeling and praying to him? You will never see an Orthodox icon with anyone in prayer to Mary.

Catholic
http://www.marypages.com/LourdesGr.jpg

http://www.our-lady-fatima.org/OurLady of Fatima.jpg

Orthodox
Always with Christ



http://www.brogilbert.org/jesus_christ/jusus_theotokos.JPG

Dormition icon which predates any Western teaching on the Assumption. Clearly Mary has “fallen asleep”, which is the early Christian term for the faithful who have died (fallen asleep alludes to the firm faith that we expect resurrection)

 
ConstantineTG;10182149]Immaculate Conception, Assumption, the Marian apparitions.
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In your opinion the preceding Marian dogmas focus too much on Mary taking the focus off of Christ? OK. Well, it was certain Marian apparitions (among other things) that moved me away from Protestantism. I felt her drawing me closer to Jesus and His church. Different strokes for different folks I suppose…🙂
Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Even the Orthodox say that Catholics worship Mary…
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Well, please answer post number one? If you can prove it then I will be forced to leave and the only other place I would feel comfortable with would be one of the EOCs. Protestantism is simply not for me anymore. If a Christian belonging to the CC worships Mary then they are ignoring the teachings of the CC.
 
The Church has no ability of restriction over Marys intercession through the Holy Spirit. Its acknowledged from early on that Marys mediation as Queen of Heaven is a reality.

What the Church insists is one must first be in communion with Christ through a State of Grace. While the Holy Spirit isn’t restricted in the Grace it extends to souls through their will and desire. The mistake is believing this signal Grace is intended for any other purpose than to draw one closer to correct communion with Grace, namely the Eucharist and Sacraments of the Apostolic Church’s. For the Grace proceeds from the Holy Spirit through Mary. When one decides to become their own spiritual director is when the issue begins. God and Mary don’t work independently of each other in contrast. Man works in contrast for whatever misguided reason.

The worship idea is not only extended to Mary but all Apostolic Church’s and Judaism in that its felt we shouldn’t use statues, icons, the Wall in Israel etc. Many Protestant congregations don’t believe in a Cross since this also is thought as un-needed idol worship. Same thinking through Islam.

To say the Church is wrong about Mary would in fact be saying God is wrong about His Mystical Body. Seems the Order of Grace is confused in this equation.
 
Reuben_J said:
Probably line like ‘turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy upon us …’ is cause of concern among the Protestants. One can pray to the Holy Spirit or even Jesus by using that line and there’s hardly any difference. A person needs to understand very well why prayer to the Blessed Virgin is said that way. And how many Protestants would understand that. So it’s quite a problem for them.
Click to expand...
Actually for the ones I have spoken to the problem comes from the very beginning.

Hail, Holy Queen,
Mother of Mercy,
Our Life
Our Sweetness
And our hope.

In the Latin - and more literal translation of the Latin - it is clear that Mercy, Life, Sweetness and Hope are all lumped together and that these things refer to Christ…Who Mary is the Mother of.
However - in the form above, while more poetic and lyrical, it can easily be read as saying that Mary is our Life, Sweetness and Hope - and the Mother of Mercy.

To thee do we cry,
Poor Banished Children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Here the Protestant asks, why are you crying to Mary instead of our one advocate who is Christ? 🤷

So - as you and others have said, it takes a thoroughly Catholic outlook to properly understand and apply this prayer.
That said, I can also see where even Catholics who are not well catechized could themselves misread and misunderstand this prayer.

Personally - I’ll stick with the “Hail Mary”…along with some extemporaneous conversations with my heavenly mother. 👍

Peace
James
 
ConstantineTG said:
I hope you realize here that you just compared Mary to the two other Persons of God. Which is the problem we are discussing about. Is our faith about Mary or is our faith about Christ? The last 3 dogmas of the Catholic Church aren’t even focused on Christ. It is about Peter/Pope and 2 on Mary. Even the Assumption has lost its original Traditional meaning. To Roman Catholics it is simply about Mary being assumed into heaven as a privilege of being the Mother of God. But the Dormition Tradition is really about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise, first granted to the humblest of all of God’s creation. Mary’s death, resurrection and assumption is not about her but about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise of resurrection for all. It is about assurance for the rest of us that resurrection is indeed going to take place for us all. It is easy to believe that Jesus resurrected because He is God. But Mary’s resurrection is solid proof that indeed all will be resurrected.
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I must say ConstantineTG that your posts on this topic have made me really interested in looking further into Orthodox beliefs about this. In your posts I actually see a way to honor Mary that actually focuses attention on Christ and his promises for all who believe on him. I sort of assumed that the Orthodox thought the same way about Mary as Catholics did. I learned something today!
 
These conversations are very useful and we should continue to have them for the benefit of both our separated brethren and our fellow Catholics.

I believe that even the Church herself recognizes the fine line and the potential for abuse in how we view and venerate our Lady. In the section of Lumen Gentium on the cult of our Lady it states in part:
67…But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.
So - let us too, as faithful Catholics and Children of our Loving Mother, keep away from things that could lead to error…In my mind and heart that means - keep it simple.

Peace
James
 
Thank you for the explanation James. As a convert I was having a lot of problems with the Hail, Holy Queen for those reasons.
 
The images you shown on the Catholic side is a historic event, a recent Miracle, and not just an icon drawing which you have shown on the Orthodox side. It is not a violation of faith if we remember the recent miracle of Our Lady even without Christ on her side.

Even in the Oriental Orthodox tradition, Mary the Mother of God is seen on Top of the Church just like the Catholic Images you shown, Tell me, when and where is the most recent Miracle of Our Lady on the Eastern Orthodox? err None?

The EO tradition is correct,but the church did not just stop after 1000 years and not under go any change nor major event did ever occur, Even the Fathers changed their own liturgy and tradition. i do see that the EO tradition is like a dead body instead of the body of Christ, the Living Church
ConstantineTG said:
Immaculate Conception, Assumption, the Marian apparitions.

The fact that there is theology around Mary is source for concern. Our theology should be about God and more about Christ who is God in our midst. In the First Millennium there was no Marian dogmas, no Mariology. The affirmation that Mary is the Theotokos in the Third Ecumenical Council is more a statement about Christ, that is that the child Mary carried in her womb is fully God as well as fully man. This was to combat any idea that the human Jesus only became God at a later time (either at birth or at baptism in the Jordan or that the human and divine natures were completely separate, all heresies).

I hope you realize here that you just compared Mary to the two other Persons of God. Which is the problem we are discussing about. Is our faith about Mary or is our faith about Christ? The last 3 dogmas of the Catholic Church aren’t even focused on Christ. It is about Peter/Pope and 2 on Mary. Even the Assumption has lost its original Traditional meaning. To Roman Catholics it is simply about Mary being assumed into heaven as a privilege of being the Mother of God. But the Dormition Tradition is really about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise, first granted to the humblest of all of God’s creation. Mary’s death, resurrection and assumption is not about her but about the fulfillment of Christ’s promise of resurrection for all. It is about assurance for the rest of us that resurrection is indeed going to take place for us all. It is easy to believe that Jesus resurrected because He is God. But Mary’s resurrection is solid proof that indeed all will be resurrected.

Her death is not unknown. It was unquestionable. To claim that it was unknown in the early Church is complete ignorance of belief in the early Church. No one in the early Church believed that she did not die. In fact even MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS states that she died several times. I don’t know where it is unclear, except for those who prefer to make conclusions out of one line from a pretty long, multi-paragraph document.

Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Even the Orthodox say that Catholics worship Mary. For the time I am Catholic I would have taken the same stand as you do. But after I put myself on the other side of the fence and looked at the Orthodox veneration of Mary, it is not the same. Catholics do take it further and more extreme. For one thing, it is very rare for one to see an Orthodox icon of the Theotokos without Christ. Yet almost every statue of Mary is without Christ. In statues of the apparitions, we even see statues of other people kneeling and praying to Mary. How many statues of Christ do you see in Catholic Churches that have statues of people kneeling and praying to him? You will never see an Orthodox icon with anyone in prayer to Mary.

Catholic
http://www.marypages.com/LourdesGr.jpg

http://www.our-lady-fatima.org/OurLady of Fatima.jpg

Orthodox
Always with Christ

http://restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/theotokos.jpg

http://www.brogilbert.org/jesus_christ/jusus_theotokos.JPG

Dormition icon which predates any Western teaching on the Assumption. Clearly Mary has “fallen asleep”, which is the early Christian term for the faithful who have died (fallen asleep alludes to the firm faith that we expect resurrection)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Oblachnoe.jpg/250px-Oblachnoe.jpg
Click to expand...
 
JRKH said:
Actually for the ones I have spoken to the problem comes from the very beginning.

Hail, Holy Queen,
Mother of Mercy,
Our Life
Our Sweetness
And our hope.

In the Latin - and more literal translation of the Latin - it is clear that Mercy, Life, Sweetness and Hope are all lumped together and that these things refer to Christ…Who Mary is the Mother of.
However - in the form above, while more poetic and lyrical, it can easily be read as saying that Mary is our Life, Sweetness and Hope - and the Mother of Mercy.

To thee do we cry,
Poor Banished Children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Here the Protestant asks, why are you crying to Mary instead of our one advocate who is Christ? 🤷

So - as you and others have said, it takes a thoroughly Catholic outlook to properly understand and apply this prayer.
That said, I can also see where even Catholics who are not well catechized could themselves misread and misunderstand this prayer.

Personally - I’ll stick with the “Hail Mary”…along with some extemporaneous conversations with my heavenly mother. 👍

Peace
James
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Thanks for sharing the experience. Been praying the Rosary, reciting every prayer there and they never caught my attention until I came across Protestants objection to praying to Mary. They seem to have valid point to object to such prayer especially when it’s tied up with their theology of no mediator except for Christ.

Marian prayer is best understood as an intercessory prayer and the wording used should be seen in that context. Some intercessory prayers are very much devotion prayer too.

The Hail Mary should be considered mild even by Protestants standard but the other devotion prayer, one has to be grounded deeply in Catholic tradition in order to understand it correctly and for that matter, safely.
 
Who said about a dead body? I said she died, WAS RESURRECTED BY CHRIST, and then assumed into heaven. Where is the dead body there?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Who said about a dead body? I said she died, WAS RESURRECTED BY CHRIST, and then assumed into heaven. Where is the dead body there?
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I don’t think that was a reference to you, but to
marlo said:
The EO tradition is correct,but the church did not just stop after 1000 years and not under go any change nor major event did ever occur, Even the Fathers changed their own liturgy and tradition. i do see that the EO tradition is like a dead body instead of the body of Christ, the Living Church
Click to expand...
 
ltwin said:
I must say ConstantineTG that your posts on this topic have made me really interested in looking further into Orthodox beliefs about this. In your posts I actually see a way to honor Mary that actually focuses attention on Christ and his promises for all who believe on him. I sort of assumed that the Orthodox thought the same way about Mary as Catholics did. I learned something today!
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Deacon Michael Hyatt has a class for his parish about the Theotokos and it is recorded as part of his podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. You can hear it here:

ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest/marythe_prequel
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest/mary_meets_elizabeth
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest/mary_the_theotokos
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/eastwest/most_holy_theotokos_save_us

I did assume in the past that Mary was viewed the same in the Orthodox Church. But as I started investigating Orthodoxy I learned that while Mary remains very prominent in the Orthodox Church, the focus and the veneration is completely the same. And to think that we even sing to her in our Liturgy. In the Roman Catholic Mass, there is no mention of Mary.
 
I was in a high Anglican parish recently and whilst we were praying the intercession and in the middle of Mass, I was praying quite intensely to God on my knees. Suddenly everyone said ‘hail Mary, full of grace…’ and I had to stop my prayer and sit in my pew. I am fine with saying the Angelus at the END of Mass to pay Mary respects but in the middle I did not like it at all.
 
Indifferently said:
I was in a high Anglican parish recently and whilst we were praying the intercession and in the middle of MassMass, I was praying quite intensely to God on my knees. Suddenly everyone said ’ hail Mary, full of grace…’ and I had to stop my prayer and sit in my pew. I am fine with saying the Angelus at the END of Mass to pay Mary respects but in the middle I did not like it at all.
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In the Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholic Church, right after the Anaphora (therefore the Body and Blood of Christ is present at the altar) we immediately pray:

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

I guess you wouldn’t be becoming Eastern Catholic or Orthodox anytime soon.
 
"I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do. And I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. "

Mary is mentioned at every Mass. Though the Mass is Christ centered

This prayer, first found in a Greek papyrus, c. 300, is the oldest known prayer to Mary.

We turn to you for protection,
Holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.
 
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